• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand

Heroin funds terrorism, Fentanyl is poison, both are illegal - the middle way?

Do you think it's arrogance, ignorance, indifference, incompetence or avarice that has meant that the average street H is more likely than not to have a fentanyl derivative in it?

All of the above. Ignorance is certainly a massive factor. Why, I've even been told by users that dipropionylmorphine would in these parts at least, effectively be unshiftable, because nobody knows of it and wouldn't bother trying unless told it was H. People are stupid, greedy and lazy, thats for damn sure.
 
You ain't lying. That's why "molly" became a blanket term to describe any empathogenic RC...I even tried flipping some etizolam pellets a while back, just enough to make it where my stash of a few hundred was free, it was more trouble than it was worth, I wouldn't go as far as lying to people, but eventually I gave up trying to explain what it was and just started saying "it's just like xanax" and funny enough no one even wanted to know more than that; but they all trusted me even though we weren't exactly friends just long time associate, I wouldn't charge my friends more than it cost me and most of them are in the know when it comes to RC and if they weren't I would make sure they knew exactly what was in them, to someone skeptical it just sounds like you are selling fake shit or something they will be disappointed by. You come at me with some unknown substance and tell me its like something and I want to know a helluva lot more before I consider ingesting it, and I know 3/4 people I unloaded them on just started saying they were xanax.

But its not like there is a lot of choice in the opioid market, when talking about hand to hand sales, but people are always wary of receiving bunk shit. I'd say the largest problem is greedy suppliers, even if you were to show them it would be in everyone best long term interest(even from a strictly self-serving standpoint) to supply a compound more in line with what clubcard is always talking about, they would never get over the fact that for a short while they would be making less money; despite profit margins still remaining ridiculous.
 
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It seems a no-brainer that what wholesalers of an opioid won't give any kind of assurances BUT this has not always been the case. I'm old enough to have seen blocks of number 4 H with the gold-leaf brand-names. That potentially provided more evidence of the supply line BUT it commanded higher prices AND gave customers more informed choice. For some while both RC & Darkweb sources have provided bothe instrumentation and public feedback. Fake pills in the US are just that. Nobody believes they are genuine BUT it prevents the stuff from being cut along the supply chain. From what I have seen, it looks like the opioid market is coming to resemble the crack market with low-cost many-unit sales with non-chemists running the show and customers dying not seen as an issue.

Whatever the morals of the RC sellers, they were involved in a legal business and created jobs, paid taxes and were limited by the rule of law. They were/are still responsible for fentanyl analogues and I think customer understanding is a big part of that. The one thing they can't do because of the law is to detail the action of the RC on humans especially things like LD50. A few opioids with only M to OxyM range potency were very popular, commanded a higher prices and appeared to be somewhat safer and certainly gave better subjective experiences. U-47000 was interesting in that it was novel, had a reasonable duration of action and seemed pretty euphoric (from the reports I read). The problem is that a powder isn't a dose unit.

There are literally dozens of novel scaffolds on the Eunoia disc BUT RC vendors have discovered that novel doesn't automatically mean safe or good. MT-45 and derivatives were not well received initially and I suspect that they quietly swapped to the chiral product but kept it quiet (market advantage). What is clear is that CC are certainly scraping sites like this and producing analogues. There is something fishy going on because they are selling bulk of things that JUST fall outside the legislation of customers local laws - why would choose 3-F fentanyl as a target unless it fell outside the law in 187 countries?

The question is, what model could exist in which the product is legal (not in the hands of criminals), safe (tested properly), resistant to tampering (sublingual tablets in patient-packs for example) and not only accepted but demanded by the customers?

I have a dark foreboding that moving the market to stop the funding of terrorism has let certain companies to being 'overlooked' concerning their supply of things that would at least fall under the CsA. That there is no concern about just what replacement(s) are being offered. Maybe I'm just deluded but it seems amazing that fentanyl of all things has become the de facto standard street opioid when mush better and safer options would command a higher price. I've known people who had kept up an OxyM habit for decades before turning to H which in turn became F which in turn killed them. I've sketched out a few compounds that aren't actually more complex or expensive to make BUT are sufficiently novel to fall outside the CsA. I certainly have no intention of ever making them or conspiring to make them but if something with a huge TI, decent duration, euphoric subjective effects in a sterile dose-unit were to be available (one so that people only need BID), would it just be impossible to compete?

In short - is quality (not potency) in the mind of the consumer at all? Informed choice requires them to be informed... which is kind of why I'm asking. With LSD especially, the producers often have very high ethical standards and I know the early & the smaller MDMA producers still care that the product is good and when 2-CI was still legal, at least one group of makers went to great lengths to make dose-units that were accurate and VERY tamper-resistant. I think the reason the product and makers remained out of the news was that nobody was harmed and no law broken...

Is such a model possible, practical or desirable? Does the cost, danger and legal problems (not forgetting the harms to society) convince people to go to a methadone clinic (assuming it's free) or will people keep taking whatever is cheapest and the least effort to obtain (dealers will sometimes swap stolen stuff for drugs).
 
In short - is quality (not potency) in the mind of the consumer at all?

Given the prevalence of poverty and the looming specter of opioid WD, and all the implications on ones lifestyle(seperate from the horrible experience) the answer is not really. New users don't understand the magnitude of difference as to them fent is still extremely euphoric, and old users are mainly focused on staving off WD without spending the rent check.

Is such a model possible, practical or desirable?

Possible and desirable? Of course, but I am paraphrasing someone else discussing another topic when I say the the greatest obstacles would prove ideological, not technical.
 
I take your points but Canadian HR workers have told me that people need at least 3 hits a day just to stay well and to get high requires a lot more (of a compound that isn't too safe). A longer-acting compound that could be taken BID or maybe, like methadone, MID? Certainly levorphanol's active metabolite norlevorphanol is important in it's activity and anyone willing to put in the effort to swap the phenol for a carboxamide makes an agent almost as active regardless of route-of-ingestion and with a T/12 of over 17 hours.... so yeah, shoot it and get a rush, swallow it and stay well but either way, dose-unit that works isn't even CLOSE to LD50.

I appreciate it is more complex on the face of it but enough people now know that in reality, super-safe derivatives are known and not actually too much work... but I don't know how the law works anywhere but here in the UK and I've still found loopholes here.

I suppose the about is more aimed at CC on the basis of 'you are scum killing people, why not be scum who don't kill people? how do you lose?'
 
aimed at CC on the basis of 'you are scum killing people'

I think you seriously overestimate the problem here. Cayman is a supplier of reference materials, not a bulk vendor; it's like blaming Sigma-Aldrich for selling 1mg reference ampules of cocaine in methanol as the cause of the crack epidemic in the late 80s. All the fentanyl analogues ARE schedule 1 in the US at least, (and presumably now China, many eastern European countries, any country with an analogue act) and as far as profitability, I somehow doubt that buying fentanyl analogs at $60,000 per gram is going to be a profitable venture.

Plus, Cayman doesn't give off a "grey market RC vendor" aura at all, it seems like the kind of company you'd need legitimate corporate registration to buy from and copious amounts of use-statement paperwork that gets cross-copied into DEA hands.

I somehow think the same labs one can blame for bulk ChIndian ketamine, Viagra and the such are the source of fentanyl and analogues; that is, labs that produce these chemicals in a legitimate fashion that end up having some percentage of the batch diverted to the more profitable grey/black market, or even rogue employees running a batch or two in the off hours or on a long holiday weekend or whatever. It makes way more sense to "make your life easy" and use pre-existing reagents, equipment, and recipes, rather than pulling a Marquadt and setting up a clandestine superlab with mass-spectrometer, bulk chromatography columns, etcetera.

If you're talking about some other "cc" then "disregard this, I suck cocks" as the old internet saying goes.
 
The key question is - to whom, and under what circumstances?

If NIH or any other license-holder wants to buy a kilogram of fentanyl at $absurd_pricing, let them do it, I could care less. But somehow I think that without a "man on the inside", they know better than to sell Joe Schmoe any.

If they're selling bulk fentanyl to random people on the internet (and they don't advertise such quantities), well, all I can say is that's something that would make me short-sell their stock.
 
When I think about it, if I were to give myself up to opioids again, it would be morphine or heroin, but luckily I've been on buprenorphine for years and despite having some kind of nostalgia for opioids every now and then triggered by certain songs or memories, I've also developed aversion to them, I'm perfectly aware of the illusion they give you and the trap you unknowingly run into when you start taking them regularly. But for people deep in uncontrolled addiction the priority is indeed to stave off withdrawal even if it's a fentanyl derivative that will do the job, though I think most heroin users given choice would always choose heroin over fentanyl, and for people who are just about to fall victim to opioid addiction, anything that will make them pain-free will do the job as well, that is at least what I was looking for and found in opioids when I took my first codeine dose, a way out of every day feeling of emptiness, pointlessness of everything I do, and depression mixed with anger filling me inside giving me extreme psychological pain.

Anyway, I meant to post in this thread for several days now and I wanted to write more broadly about RC's in general. This is just my personal opinion on novel recreational drugs including opioids, but I'm sure the view is shared by many people. Novel classes of opioids (like AH-7921 or U-47700 which aren't ultra-potent so don't carry as much risk for accidental overdose as fentanyls), stimulants, entactogens, synthetic cannabinoids and so on can't solve the problem with worldwide ban on drugs. These novel compounds have nowhere near as much data on their toxicity as compounds that have been around for decades like morphine, heroin, amphetamine, MDMA, cocaine, ketamine, THC. If you look back at the great boom of RC's which in Poland started with mephedrone and then a flood of analogues that followed and consider human losses from these compounds, there is nothing to justify their widespread use as legal alternatives and keeping them legal if amphetamine, MDMA, heroin, and cocaine are illegal as well. IIRC in the UK it was piperazines which started as the first wave of legal party drugs and then after they got banned, mephedrone came in. But anyway, I mean, what's so different about these once-legal-for-a-while alternatives? Those that people wanted/want to use present the same problems that illegal drugs do, they are addictive, they ruin you financially and socially. So "let's make a replacement" is not the logic you can sell to the authorities, so that they unban drugs and stop the flow of impure and adulterated batches. That is not the way to make the public opinion change their mind on drugs (and the society is after all capable of pushing politicians to do things when a large movement for some cause forms), because when an accident with an RC happens, the media are always there to take up the topic and make all drugs look like poisons, they just dump everything into the same sack and have a hot story for a few days or for several months as it was with mephedrone in Poland when it was popular all around the world and new dedicated RC shops with legal high powders containing primarily mephedrone, often mixed with various additives like TFMPP or BZP, were appearing on the streets of all major cities literally overnight. Today there are no street shops but we see more and more weird RC's on the market available online because first the original recreational drugs had been banned, then the first wave of alternatives were banned, and then every next wave eventually experiences the same fate, so whoever makes a living selling RC's has to come up with novel ones which often have little to no pharmacological basis to be used as a recreational drug in the first place. The question is now what's a safer and more sensible route: 1) unban certain drugs and treat them like alcohol, caffeine, and nicotine or 2) design new scaffolds to be used as legal recreational drugs that will eventually get banned anyway.

In Poland there is no analogue act, mephedrone was banned in 2010, but many analogues of mephedrone remained legal until 2015, including 3-MMC which basically was the most sought after and used analogue. In 2015 the list of illegal compounds was updated with basically anything that some office worker could find any mention about on the Internet as it included even substances which never appeared as RC's. But life goes on, as there is no analogue act and they can't just name every possible homologue out there, more replacement compounds have been introduced since then, some very weird ones. Would they have ever popped up and stayed for longer if illegal drugs had been legal and mephedrone hadn't been banned? Certainly not. Most of those homologues of already banned RC's are forgotten as soon as they become illegal themselves. Cocaine or heroin on the other hand are illegal and there is still high demand for them despite all the potential trouble one runs into acquiring them and higher price, so clearly qualitative effects of drugs are a very important factor for drug users if they choose to seek illegal drugs while they could safely order legal "designer" drugs.

I've witnessed legal drugs do more harm than illegal drugs do usually. I've seen a guy become a vegetable due to manganism caused by injecting methcathinone solutions made at home using potassium permanganate and acetic acid with no scales and obviously very little idea about possible dangers. Until recently pseudoephedrine could be bought OTC in unlimited amounts and KMnO4 is available in pharmacies as well, now only 1 box of OTC medicines containing codeine, dextromethorphan, and pseudoephedrine may be sold at a time, but this is no obstacle really as pharmacists can simply sell n boxes on n receipts, besides people addicted to codeine often had to visit several pharmacies to buy enough before this law was introduced because rarely you can find a pharmacy that will sell you 4 boxes at a time on a regular basis (although I did have such pharmacies back in the days). I've seen people become paranoid due to excessive every day use of a-PVP, MDPV and analogues that followed when the first two got banned. I've seen excessive use of mephedrone analogues which lacked desirable properties of mephedrone and people ingested ridiculous quantities of them to catch the glimpse of mephedrone-like euphoria. When you look at it, these legal highs carry just as much danger as illegal cut drugs other than just plain addiction which is obvious. Detox wards in Poland which before the flood of RC's were mainly for heroin addicts to wean themselves with methadone are now full of people addicted to various RC's. I'm not even going to attempt to talk about synthetic cannabinoids due to the number of different ones being available over the recent years which proved to be deadly dangerous, and yet it's still somehow hard to make cannabis a legal drug for people to relax after a hard day at work or socialize with friends if they choose to do so, even though we have alcohol use widely accepted, hell, it's not uncommon to come as a weirdo if you don't drink it at all. The media, policitians and anti-drug activists can't say that much more people suffer permanent damage due to heroin, cocaine, or meth than from alcohol. And they can't put cannabis into the same sack without telling lies. The problem to be solved is how to effectively educate people about drugs and their effects. We shouldn't choose to let this game of "ban then replace" go on forever, substituted cathinones look harmless considering their structural similarity to amphetamines and methcathinone relative to potential drugs of abuse of the future which will be based on scaffolds that we know little to nothing about.
 
The difference is that, with perhaps a caveat concerning stimulant addiction, a vast majority of the damage caused from drugs stems from the fact that they are illegal, especially the financial burden. Even the amount of irresponsible use is greatly amplified by the war on drugs because people are ignorant, receive little education on how to use drugs responsibly, must hide their use, and will often use more to satiate feelings of shame stemming from their use. With proper education and support habitual use of almost all categories of drugs just isn't a concern in nearly the entirety of the population, and for those dependant on opioids cost is the #1 obstacle to their sustainable use as most harm could be prevented with access to clean supplies, consistent dose units, education, and to reiterate, not spending 50% of ones income on the drug.
 
The key question is - to whom, and under what circumstances?

If NIH or any other license-holder wants to buy a kilogram of fentanyl at $absurd_pricing, let them do it, I could care less. But somehow I think that without a "man on the inside", they know better than to sell Joe Schmoe any.

If they're selling bulk fentanyl to random people on the internet (and they don't advertise such quantities), well, all I can say is that's something that would make me short-sell their stock.


As a loophole drug in an EU country. I mentioned 3-F fentanyl for a specific reason. It arrived via Poland. If they were legit, would they be using a freight-forwarding company that on examination is legally based in the Cayman Islands? I didn't just glance at a tiny sample and decide they were up to no good. That they are not really trying too hard to disguise the fact and yet they are officially based in the US is interesting. Even with amazing lawyers, I would have expected media interest. Of course, we have seen what Kolokol does so maybe it's a lure? All of the 'pink' came from them, as did the analogues. As soon as 1 thing turns up, they make the analogues so, so very quickly i.e. they aren't just supplying the reference materials, they are making damned sure that the references will be needed.

They clearly do not have the Eunoia Disc.... and now I see why distribution is so limited. That would be a disaster.
 
In light of the discussion in this thread regarding Cayman Chemicals and fentanyl, I figured those familiar with ostensibly-legitimate chemical suppliers would find this story interesting.
 
Thank you for that, S.I.P.

The open manner in which CC is operating suggests that they are either paying off someone a LOT or that they are in fact running a sting. If so, they need to get some more capable chemists. Copying and then just keeping modding things to JUST stay within the law can only possibly work for a short period of time. If they are some kind of wonderful medicinal chemists, the stuff shouldn't bare even the slightest resemblance to anything controlled. Basically, if it has a CAS, it's too well known.

I'm all for safer options but these people are peddling about the most dubious classes of the most hazardous types of psychoactives. ED50 like etorphine, LD50 like codeine - that's the kind of TI possible and people NOT dying and NOT needing another hit every 20 minutes thus fueling acquisitive crime are 2 reasonable and possible HR aims. I'm sure no opioid is going to be made legal any time in the next 20 years but the people with teenaged kids today will be the law makers in 20 years and sooner or later someone is going to have to end this bloodbath.
 
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