bl staff, policy and process feedback

[alasdairm]

background: The rise in abuse of power, overstepping of bounds, and unbalanced perspectives on BL

that thread raised a few interesting questions but derailed pretty badly. let's try again and let's find a way to discuss issues and concerns civilly and constructively.

we're all here for different reasons but we all have something in common - we're all bluelighters. so let's try to be positive, please?

consider:

• don't make assumptions about other people's motivations. take questions and comments at face value
• try to see things from other people's points of view
• if you disagree with somebody, try to think in terms of "not right and wrong. just different"
• criticize ideas and actions, not individuals
• commit to learning, not 'winning' the discussion
• avoid blame
• avoid speculation
• avoid insults and abuse - be respectful and civil
• don't assume - e.g. if somebody takes a little while to address your question or concern, maybe they've got something going on irl and can't immediately get back. they're not trolling you
• finally, and perhaps most importantly, consider solutions. if something is wrong in your eyes, what would you do to fix it? what are you doing to help? "better to light a single candle than to curse the darkness"

if i see posts which fly in the face of the spirit of these ground rules, i'll simply remove them. censorship! oppression! irony!

hopefully we can have a constructive discussion and make some improvements as a result.

thanks all.

alasdair

 

[Jabberwocky]

Thank you for putting this together Ali!!!

 

[Captain.Heroin]

I'll summarize my thoughts from the last thread...

1) Mod-bias can exist, because we are all individuals. However, there's a phenomenal amount of oversight. Any user can contest a ban and appeal the decision. This often doesn't happen because largely people know what they did wrong, and choose to amend their behavior.

2) We used to issue infractions much more frequently than we do now. Specifically, I used to, especially while I was a moderator of Other Drugs roughly, uh, some years ago. Probably like 7, 8 years ago. That's a lot of years' worth of drugs ago. Trouble-makers and problematic users were issued many infractions, especially when people were repeat offenders.

3) The infraction system has changed over time. Points can be non-expiring now. We have hence compensated with a greater number of informal warnings, and use hesitation before infracting over each problematic action.

4) There is no philosophical or political bias.

 

[mal3volent]

I've been a member on lots of other forums over the years. I'm sure most of you reading this have too. Large forums, small forums. Popular forums, underground forums. Ones with clearly established political views, ones that were totally apolitical.

I've been here for going on 7 years now. Taking into consideration the delicate subject matter we talk about here (either drug related, HR related, politics, etc) and the amount of users...it is INSANE how well regulated the disciplinary system is here. Other places, mods pretty much ban on the spot. Ban first, ask questions later. It is at each mods discretion...whether to ban, how long to ban, etc.

There are no appeals, or discussion, or threads where admins encourage users to give feedback or make criticisms.

I'm glad to be a part of BL, and part of a group of mods and other staff that take their jobs seriously.

 

[Blue_Phlame]

If the bullet-points ali posted became actualized, this forum would be a much better place for fair discussions.

To err is human; to learn is to not make the same mistakes again.

 

[Cheshire_Kat]

background: The rise in abuse of power, overstepping of bounds, and unbalanced perspectives on BL

that thread raised a few interesting questions but derailed pretty badly. let's try again and let's find a way to discuss issues and concerns civilly and constructively.

we're all here for different reasons but we all have something in common - we're all bluelighters. so let's try to be positive, please?

consider:

• don't make assumptions about other people's motivations. take questions and comments at face value
• try to see things from other people's points of view
• if you disagree with somebody, try to think in terms of "not right and wrong. just different"
• criticize ideas and actions, not individuals
• commit to learning, not 'winning' the discussion
• avoid blame
• avoid speculation
• avoid insults and abuse - be respectful and civil
• don't assume - e.g. if somebody takes a little while to address your question or concern, maybe they've got something going on irl and can't immediately get back. they're not trolling you
• finally, and perhaps most importantly, consider solutions. if something is wrong in your eyes, what would you do to fix it? what are you doing to help? "better to light a single candle than to curse the darkness"

if i see posts which fly in the face of the spirit of these ground rules, i'll simply remove them. censorship! oppression! irony!

hopefully we can have a constructive discussion and make some improvements as a result.

thanks all.

alasdair

I'm such a new MOD I tend not to reply...

But This 1000 Times more

/ Back to my basic MOD mode

 

[zephyr]

If the bullet-points ali posted became actualized, this forum would be a much better place for fair discussions.

To err is human; to learn is to not make the same mistakes again.

I have been thinking long and hard about mentioning this and still feel I should and therefore will.


Its one thing to say in public you (and Im addressing staff who stated they admit to making mistakes, see prev thread for names) make mistakes. Its one thing to say you are open to discussion and admit to said mistakes.


However to thise of you who do not actually do this- please stop saying you are willing to accept you make mistakes when you do not.

Ali:I found the way you addressed the whole lounge thing as a mistake and you knew immediately when it happened and then saying if you could do it again you would very ruthless and also plain wrong.

If you were just bliwing off steam rhen that makes sense.

Nobody should close a forum on all its inhabitants just because of an annoying few for any reason, period.

Also once again to BP only: apologies.

 

[phr]

There was a time when it was, or even looked like or even alleged, that there was personal beef between a staff member and a regular member, then the staff member should defer infractions/warnings/bans. That was a KEY rule to prevent unfair treatment. That has long disappeared and has been abused, especially by alasdairmin my case and most likely with jah, and a bunch of others.

It has long turned from "doing what's best for the community" to "instituting what I want and getting rid of everyone that disagrees in any way possible." This has been done under the guise of "it's what's best to continue the surveys," which is ridiculous. The site's most valuable resource are its drug abusing members. Whether they're censored or not is of no value to the people running the surveys. Do you honestly think a surveyor will be like "nah, we'll pass this droppersneck person called Harlem a zoo"?

Anyway, it's been at the point where:

Staff don't think person X did anything wrong, well I'll just step in and infract/ban anyway. It's my way or the highway.

Change here won't happen until alasdairm is no longer on staff or calling the shots. Period. How bad is it? Hell, people are so afraid of him they're unwilling to use their real BL names to criticize him off-site because they will be receiving, what we call, the "PM buttblast."

BP posted an infographic of the top posters in TL and he listed the reasons why they don't post there. Let's see that posted again with the relationship those people had with alasdairm and his policies taken into account. I'd be shocked if those people didn't all leave because of his policy change and/or him personally running them off with infractions/bans.

I'll end by saying that based on the zeitgeist here, it would not be surprising if this post of mine was edited, unapproved, or if I get infracted for it. And nothing will change as long as he's still the numba one shot caller.

 

[alasdairm]

my hope was that people would find a way to embrace the sprit of the bullet points in my first post. oh well

I'll end by saying that based on the zeitgeist here, it would not be surprising if this post of mine was edited, unapproved, or if I get infracted for it.

the martyr act gets pretty old but you won't be edited, unapproved or infracted because your post doesn't break the forum guidelines or the blua. it's that simple.

if you feel everything is my fault, contact the owners (or start a petition or whatever) about having me removed. seriously, if you think it's that bad, make your case. i serve at the pleasure of the site owners - if they want me gone because i'm so awful, i'll step down tomorrow.

alasdair

 

[tathra]

That has long disappeared and has been abused, especially by alasdairmin my case and most likely with jah, and a bunch of others.

if that were true then why havent you been permabanned yet?

 

[alasdairm]

right. the irony is that i've been petitioned by many staff and bluelighters to just permaban phr and others and i've been the one saying that we have to be consistent and not just arbitrarily ban them, regardless the vitriol they spout about bl and its staff

on the issue of people being afraid to use their real names off-site, i call more b.s.

we generally don't share staff-only discussion but i made these comments and i think they illustrate here:

from april 19th 2018:

we've never policed off-site comments and i don't think we should.

from march 9th 2018:

we can't police off-site activity...

from january 1st 2018:

we can't police things that happen off the board...

(the links won't work as they link to threads in the staff forum)

your claim is utter b.s., phr. i am defending people's right to say whatever they want off-site and i reiterate that here.

alasdair

 

[spacejunk]

^ right.
Even though some people argue that we could rightfully do so, as per the BLUA #13;

Specifically, you may not:

use other Internet sites to promote libelous or slanderous messages about Bluelight or incite abuse against Bluelight; use Bluelight to solicit members to third-party sites

But, of course we don't do that.

 

[phr]

Me being permabanned is not a necessary act for my claim to be true.

My post is my opinion, based on what I've seen and what I've experienced. Some share my opinion and some do not.

I don't believe the owners care, based on my discussion with one. It's also the easy way out to continue as is. They're not here, they don't participate, and it's much easier to continue on as is, so why change things? Change isn't easy. See the effort needed to close TL? We're here because of that change. How much easier would it have been to continue on with it as it was?

Was the change worth it? What was gained beyond the huge drop in traffic and the removal/leaving of the top posters in TL?

I saw an active forum that sometimes pushed the limits, and when the limits were pushed the offenders were banned. I saw that turned into the turd of a dead forum it is now. But, that doesn't matter when the people that were wanted to be gone are gone.

 

[alasdairm]

How much easier would it have been to continue on with it as it was?

it would have been very easy - much easier than making a change - because:

...it's much easier to continue on as is...

but the right thing and the easy thing are, as you seem to agree, rarely the same thing.

Was the change worth it?

yes.

your view one way of looking at it. it's your opinion and you're entitled to it. i note you are not edited, unapproved or banned for speaking out.

alasdair

 

[phr]

right. the irony is that i've been petitioned by many staff and bluelighters to just permaban phr and others and i've been the one saying that we have to be consistent and not just arbitrarily ban them, regardless the vitriol they spout about bl and its staff

on the issue of people being afraid to use their real names off-site, i call more b.s.

we generally don't share staff-only discussion but i made these comments and i think they illustrate here:

from april 19th 2018:

from march 9th 2018:

from january 1st 2018:

(the links won't work as they link to threads in the staff forum)

your claim is utter b.s., phr. i am defending people's right to say whatever they want off-site and i reiterate that here.

alasdair

^ right.
Even though some people argue that we could rightfully do so, as per the BLUA #13;



But, of course we don't do that.

So which is it? It's in the BLUA that you're not allowed to say shit about BL off site. Spacey just quoted it.

You've also PM'ed people about them saying stuff off site. Hell, I was personally given an ultimatum, that I've posted, to stop talking shit on reddit or I'll be removed from staff. The owner of the site specifically said I was banned here because I banned you on reddit and it basically turned into a tit for tat situation.

Like I said, people are afraid to use the same handle because they get buttblasted via PM about it or they'll get removed down the road because they have a different opinion.

Dude, you removed tude from staff because she didn't share the same vision as you. She was outspoken about it. She never once said "i will not do what you say" she just didn't agree with it. Same for me.

I know it plays into whatever political narrative you try to push, about tolerance and all that jazz, but you're completely intolerant to views that you don't share and you're quick to remove anyone that disagrees.

 

[phr]

it would have been very easy - much easier than making a change - because:


but the right thing and the easy thing are, as you seem to agree, rarely the same thing.

yes.

your view one way of looking at it. it's your opinion and you're entitled to it. i note you are not edited, unapproved or banned for speaking out.

alasdair

Run a poll. Should The Lounge have been changed to Social as it is now or should it have been left alone.

I dared you, and the others, to start Social and to let TL continue as is as a non-publicly visible forum, just for 6 months and if it wasn't popular to shut it. You didn't want to do that and exactly as I predicted happened: the forum died.

Of course it's worth it to you, but to all the people that left and don't post anymore it's not worth it. Yes, I do note my posts haven't been removed or edited.

 

[alasdairm]

So which is it? It's in the BLUA that you're not allowed to say shit about BL off site. Spacey just quoted it.

the precise text is "use other Internet sites to promote libelous or slanderous messages about Bluelight or incite abuse against Bluelight; use Bluelight to solicit members to third-party sites"

that doesn't prohibit anybody from posting off-site.

Hell, I was personally given an ultimatum, that I've posted, to stop talking shit on reddit or I'll be removed from staff.

the problem in your case was not that you were posting but that you opted to create and manage a forum which seemed designed to incite abuse and disruption on bl. we're not a corporation but there are parallels. imagine you were ceo of ford and found out that one of your employees started a website called http://fordcarsareshit.com encouraging people to boycott buyoing ford cars. it's problematic and i can't imagine you'd allow it to continue because free speech is so important...

you're completely intolerant to views that you don't share and you're quick to remove anyone that disagrees.

i disagree.

alasdair

 

[alasdairm]

so, in the spirit of the op, phr feels that there are numerous issues with me as an admin. and that numerous problems would be solved by simply removing me. does anybody else agree with his analysis?

alasdair

 

[spacejunk]

^ No.




@phr - That wasn't a "gotcha". We dont bother enforcing our rules on anything said offsite.
We could. But why?
Surely that would be obvious to anyone who has acquainted themselves with your site.

We do enforce the bit about not plugging bitch-about-bl sites here. Obviously

not use Bluelight to solicit members to third-party sites

 

[Jabberwocky]

The owner of the site specifically said I was banned here because I banned you on reddit and it basically turned into a tit for tat situation?

When did this discussion take place? I don?t think you and I have spoken for many years. I also not aware that you r ever emailed or PMed me with any grievance.

I would like to genuinely get to the bottom of whatever it is you?re upset about and understand why you believe Ali is at the root of the problem. All I see is a lot of personal attacks on him for enforcing rules, such as editing/banning for racist and homophobic comments. Regardless of what anyone else things, Bluelight will never be a place that welcomes racism or hatespeach in any form.


If there is something else I?m missing, I?d genuinely like to know about it and will make time to hear your side of the story. Feel free to reach out anytime.

SG