bl staff, policy and process feedback

[swilow]

So, BP, I think you took issue to some matters in CEP and the way we were approaching certain users there. You're welcome to expand on that here.

 

[Droppersneck]

Ok this feels like teaming up on ole BP. There is definitely some issues with management, and I say this as a known critic. It’s become a circle jerk, where banning someone is like taking a ‘trophy’, like it’s someone who dared to question the ruling class. The offender is villianized, and the inflactor is made to feel like social justice is being served. Most recent example was jah, though he definitely pushed back against it. Every action has a reaction though. My last infraction is pretty much the prefect example of it. You guys seem to have this buzzaro limp-wrist warrior culture of taking down anyone that shows dissent via implied consent. This thread is a refreshing change, though probably at the bequest of the owners. Not sure what should be done, Alasdair leads the site and it’s a thankless position, I like certain aspects of his leadership but overall pragamtism and a willingness to admit fault should be a promoted theme.

 

[Blue_Phlame]

Blue phlame just enunciate and clarify why you bought this issue up. Stop pretending its about the lounge. I know you will get your cronies support if you stick the boots into the lounge but you are being disingenuous here. The issue came about because you dislike decisions in CEP.

Again you obfuscate. Its incredibly transparent.

If I obfuscate, then you can't intellect.
Here's an incredibly unobfuscated sentence, given to you. Quoted and everything so you can have an easy answer.

That's the main theme for me creating this thread. Not to expose the organization as being corrupt, or the members who I believe are contributing to the risk of potential corruption, but to encourage self-checks in the administration to identify the patterns of behavior of its staff that lead to unfair and unjust actions

I'm actually asking the important questions here.

Does anyone else think that occurrences of unfair decisions made at the expense of members who do not share the same ideological perspective have become increasingly more commonplace?

An honest question that was the starting concern for starting the discussion.

The board's general disposition has shifted heavily to one side, and as a consequence, started ostracizing members who do not share the same ideals.

this was my perspective of the situation, I did not want to use specific members or words in this post because that would make the problem more personal. My aim was to make a broader statement, and not focus on specific instances, but rather improve inter-member relations as a whole.

Its clear to me that this forum no longer holds values that encourage impartial and non-partisan perspectives in its staff.

This is the nub of the problem, that if staff held impartial and non-partisan perspectives when making decisions (such as *removed links to staff conduct threads*, see edit)

or you could just say it, instead of hoping that somebody else will provide some substance to your empty claims of alleged misconduct. that there have been zero attempts by you or anyone else to back up any of these claims, not publicly, privately, or even anonymously makes it pretty clear that there's nothing to them.

Boy, If I kept notes with time-stamps on examples from the last 2 years this would be easy to answer. My mod-fu isn't as strong, given the 1000s of reports we've had during this time, it'll be difficult to find particular instances that won't get me in trouble again for 'divulging staff info'

Perhaps a better solution would be to identify what would actually constitute a mod's abuse of power and overstepping of bounds.

This isn't a thread for me to keep finding and posting problems exhaustively, but to have a discussion on the appropriate ways things can be handled.

*edit*

 

[Blue_Phlame]

^ do you want to find common ground, or not? <--- this was directed at tathra before he deleted his post

Stop pretending its about the lounge.

• avoid speculation
• don't assume

I know you will get your cronies support if you stick the boots into the lounge but you are being disingenuous here.

• avoid insults
• don't make assumptions about other people's motivations

The issue came about because you dislike decisions in CEP.

I have to spell it out for you like i'm talking to a child.

Its not right to hear you assuming the intentions of other people so often. I would suggest that you don't keep insisting that you know what other people are thinking, it's more effective to propose solutions.

Again you obfuscate. Its incredibly transparent.

• criticize ideas and actions, not individuals

" I obfuscate. "
ob-fus-cate

render obscure, unclear, or unintelligible.​

It would seem that we do not understand each other. Where is this barrier in communication that's preventing you from understanding me?

"incredibly transparent."
in-cred-i-bly

to a great degree; extremely or unusually.​

trans-par-ent

easy to perceive or detect.​

I'm afraid I have to point out that your constant exaggerations are problematic, especially if they are directed at another member.
If I obfuscate, and am incredibly transparent... you must mean that purposefully obfuscating is transparent, because obfuscation and transparency seem to be antonyms. What can we do to solve this predicament? Surely I can't do all the thinking here, apply yourself swillow! I know you can do it!

 

[tathra]

Perhaps a better solution would be to identify what would actually constitute a mod's abuse of power and overstepping of bounds.

since you claim its clear to you, why dont you enlighten us to the criteria you use that makes it so readily apparent? again, stop expecting others to give substance to your claims, take some responsibility for yourself, your words, and your actions.

• criticize ideas and actions, not individuals

it is your actions being criticized, your obviously transparent refusal to meaningfully engage in the discussion you started. there's that problem of yours again, where you keep refusing to respond to what was actually said, and instead respond to something different (also a criticism of your actions, if you cant tell)

 

[Blue_Phlame]

since you claim its clear to you, why dont you enlighten us to the criteria you use that makes it so readily apparent? again, stop expecting others to give substance to your claims, take some responsibility for yourself, your words, and your actions.
I would like this question to be addressed by the whole community, should I begin? It's not clearly outlined in the moderator handbook, so discussing things that could be considered abuse of power, and overstepping of bounds can be agreed upon by staff.

I posted about 10 threads from the staff forums that give examples of what I consider questionable conduct. I'm waiting for a senior mod/admin to review it to see if its acceptable to post here.

it is your actions being criticized, your obviously transparent refusal to meaningfully engage in the discussion you started. there's that problem of yours again, where you keep refusing to respond to what was actually said, and instead respond to something different (also a criticism of your actions, if you cant tell)

I am engaging, I don't have to write novels to get a discussion going. I'm also trying to gear the direction of this thread into a productive direction by suggesting improvements. Can you try and communicate with me without assuming my intentions? That would be another good start.

refusing to respond

re-sponse

a verbal or written answer.​

I have written several responses. Perhaps they're not the answers you're looking for.

 

[swilow]

^ do you want to find common ground, or not?

• avoid speculation
• don't assume

• avoid insults
• don't make assumptions about other people's motivations

I have to spell it out for you like i'm talking to a child.

Its not right to hear you assuming the intentions of other people so often. I would suggest that you don't keep insisting that you know what other people are thinking, it's more effective to propose solutions.

• criticize ideas and actions, not individuals

" I obfuscate. "
ob-fus-cate

render obscure, unclear, or unintelligible.​

It would seem that we do not understand each other. Where is this barrier in communication that's preventing you from understanding me?

"incredibly transparent."
in-cred-i-bly

to a great degree; extremely or unusually.​

trans-par-ent

easy to perceive or detect.​

I'm afraid I have to point out that your constant exaggerations are problematic, especially if they are directed at another member.
If I obfuscate, and am incredibly transparent... you must mean that purposefully obfuscating is transparent, because obfuscation and transparency seem to be antonyms. What can we do to solve this predicament? Surely I can't do all the thinking here, apply yourself swillow! I know you can do it!

I don't care about finding common ground with you. I want to know specifically what your issue is.

Why did you raise this publicly? What did you think would happen? How does this benefit bluelight?

 

[Blue_Phlame]

I don't care about finding common ground with you.

Well then, it looks like you and I can end this conversation right now because there's no sense in discussing anything with anyone if you don't care about the other person or being willing to find common ground with that other person.

---

Tathra, can I classify this as an instance of misconduct of staff? Being unwilling to find common ground with a member who's trying to have a civil conversation and get to the root of a problem?


edit: I can see how these posts can seem 'obfuscating'... I make my point in a post, then piles of other posts come up after it - -burying it in piddly exchanges about the person's intent or hearsay... people forget what I said, and repeat the same line of questioning to tire me out.

droppers is right. It's starting to look like teaming up against me, rather than the direction I want it to go, with civil and positive discussion that leads to solutions and inter-member relations improvement.


I'm gonna quote my own post from my response to a report of my own post
(it's not breaking any rules because I'm free to say the same thing in here that I said in there)

I'm having an emerging feeling that by actually responding to everyone's posts, might annoy some people. It's a double-edged sword here, if I don't respond quickly enough (i'm actually up right now responding to people, risking my health instead of lying in bed because I called out from work today due to fever/flu) - I get criticized for running away. [proof because i have a feeling people won't believe that i'm actually sick]

If I do respond, i'm being disingenuous and annoying.

I'm sure that many staff would rather be doing other things, and if we used Ali's bullet-points as a guide in our responses, I believe it would make the discussion more civil and I wouldn't have to make so many of these posts refuting or disproving other people's claims against me. Ali said to propose solutions, I am trying to find some common ground with everyone here, but people keep fighting me.

 

[tathra]

since when is common ground required to have a civil discussion? the 2 have nothing to do with each other. how about you tell us about the roots of the problem instead of diverting off to unrelated tangents, like "finding common ground"?

 

[Blue_Phlame]

Ugh, i've got a headache and i'm gonna go lie down.

It appears i'm the only one here trying to reconcile

 

[Jabberwocky]

I don’t know what you think you’ll accomplish with this BP, but your comments don’t make me want to think you are trying very hard.

Other people, mal, tath and swillow, you are really not helping. I understand your pissed that BP is basically getting a free pass, I don’t like it either. But how you are posting about it is just about as unhelpful as BP.

I don’t like it, but one option I see here is censuring anyone who keeps this up (I don’t really see that happening either, but who knows, it’s an option).

Droppers I try to ignore, as their comments just generally make me gag in terms of disingenuity. Same can be said for phr.

 

[sekio]

I don't see any identification of concrete issues in this thread, there's instead a lot of hand waving...

Impartiality and complete fairness is not an inalienable right on the internet, if you read the BLUA it clearly states that staff reserve the right to act arbitrarily as they see fit.

 

[Droppersneck]

I don’t know what you think you’ll accomplish with this BP, but your comments don’t make me want to think you are trying very hard.

Other people, mal, tath and swillow, you are really not helping. I understand your pissed that BP is basically getting a free pass, I don’t like it either. But how you are posting about it is just about as unhelpful as BP.

I don’t like it, but one option I see here is censuring anyone who keeps this up (I don’t really see that happening either, but who knows, it’s an option).

Droppers I try to ignore, as their comments just generally make me gag in terms of disingenuity. Same can be said for phr.

Im very much being ingenuous, and I think that condescending attitude is part of the problem. Just bc I don’t take the time to be fake or sugar coat my points, doesn’t mean they aren’t valid/my genuine observations.
I will say I feel like with Alasdair overturnimg my last perm infraction, things seem to be moving in the right direction. Bp id say that’s a good faith gesture at the very least.

 

[swilow]

Other people, mal, tath and swillow, you are really not helping. I understand your pissed that BP is basically getting a free pass, I don?t like it either. But how you are posting about it is just about as unhelpful as BP.
.

Are you serious?

BP is getting a free pass if asking him to explain himself is "unhelpful".

This is absurd.

 

[phr]

Droppers I try to ignore, as their comments just generally make me gag in terms of disingenuity. Same can be said for phr.

I don't think you know what disingenuous means.

 

[alasdairm]

phr, you place the blame for a host of issues on my shoulders and i think it's best i don't respond to your complaint.

the site owner reached out to you and offered to hear your concerns. can you perhaps sum up your subsequent discussion with s_g and your takeaways? are you satisfied with the response?

thanks.

alasdair

 

[scubagirl200]

you tell me, youre the one that started all this with accusations and alleging problems but then refusing to say anything that might show your allegations to be anything more than empty accusations, we're all still trying to find out if this whole thing is anymore than concern trolling.

While J is banned and cannot comment directly I have taken some attention to this and the original thread. It is quite apparent that BP raised some valid concerns, maybe not in the most eloquent fashion (however, it can often be difficult to properly state your thoughts when heavily bothered by something) and then proceeded to provide the supporting evidence as requested by others (only to have it removed further obfuscating his main points - not a doing of his own I might add).

On this page alone he has furthered his points in a seemingly polite and helpful fashion - while being personally attacked by his colleagues.

I don't understand the bashing of common ground -- it is my belief that this is how we come to terms -- through mutual understanding AND common ground.

How can we productively discuss things if we are not discussing the same things? From common ground.

From what I see this is not about a poster wanting to say banned words. This is about mismanagement of this site's most valuable resource, being it's posters/community.


I understand that there is a vision for what an entity wishes to be and in fulfilling that vision many like minded individuals come together in its formation - herein lies a problem.

There is clearly a lopsidedness in ideologies of management here leaning one way - as evidenced in this very thread and the previous original. This makes it easier for the managers of the majority mindset to speak and act in certain ways that may not be completely fair or appropriate even. It can be difficult to see when you are part of the in-group, with like minded individuals, and can even be difficult to look at with true objectivity when a member outside of this group shines a light on these matters.

Maybe BP didn't word it as neatly as you'd like, but pretending that there isn't an issue here and that BP is just "trolling" IS disingenuous (not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does. - for those of you who have been misusing the word). Maybe you don't really know or see the issue, but my guess is that after it's been brought to your attention that you should at least see that there is an issue and are now just pretending it doesn't exist.

I have seen an administrator ask him why he hasn't stepped down yet! This same administrator has chastised an ex-mod for voicing their concerns after stepping down and not sticking it out as mod to try and help! Well, which is it? Should he stick around and give his POV, time, and valuable knowledge? OR should he just step down - furthering this lopsidedness?

 

[Droppersneck]

While J is banned and cannot comment directly I have taken some attention to this and the original thread. It is quite apparent that BP raised some valid concerns, maybe not in the most eloquent fashion (however, it can often be difficult to properly state your thoughts when heavily bothered by something) and then proceeded to provide the supporting evidence as requested by others (only to have it removed further obfuscating his main points - not a doing of his own I might add).

On this page alone he has furthered his points in a seemingly polite and helpful fashion - while being personally attacked by his colleagues.

I don't understand the bashing of common ground -- it is my belief that this is how we come to terms -- through mutual understanding AND common ground.

How can we productively discuss things if we are not discussing the same things? From common ground.

From what I see this is not about a poster wanting to say banned words. This is about mismanagement of this site's most valuable resource, being it's posters/community.


I understand that there is a vision for what an entity wishes to be and in fulfilling that vision many like minded individuals come together in its formation - herein lies a problem.

There is clearly a lopsidedness in ideologies of management here leaning one way - as evidenced in this very thread and the previous original. This makes it easier for the managers of the majority mindset to speak and act in certain ways that may not be completely fair or appropriate even. It can be difficult to see when you are part of the in-group, with like minded individuals, and can even be difficult to look at with true objectivity when a member outside of this group shines a light on these matters.

Maybe BP didn't word it as neatly as you'd like, but pretending that there isn't an issue here and that BP is just "trolling" IS disingenuous (not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does. - for those of you who have been misusing the word). Maybe you don't really know or see the issue, but my guess is that after it's been brought to your attention that you should at least see that there is an issue and are now just pretending it doesn't exist.

I have seen an administrator ask him why he hasn't stepped down yet! This same administrator has chastised an ex-mod for voicing their concerns after stepping down and not sticking it out as mod to try and help! Well, which is it? Should he stick around and give his POV, time, and valuable knowledge? OR should he just step down - furthering this lopsidedness?

Yep I think we were talking about this on fb the other day scuba. The political bend is noticeable, and it likely shapes things with certain perspectives being valued over others. SKL did a lot of harm to bl with his over haul of the BLUA, but he also did a service in bringing a different perspective/world view to the table. I get why an HR site might have a liberal bend, but maybe considerations of diversity of thought/opinion should be persude with future hires.

 

[scubagirl200]

I think that would be a good start, in regards to more diversity of thought/opinion. It is even more frustrating then that when a certain subforum selects a free thinking individual for moderator - more than once - the powers that be quash the action. It almost seems that they don't want outside thinkers among their ranks. It's interesting that BP, potato, zephyr, and annie all thought someone would be good for the position yet others on staff couldn't see it.


For the record: I know BP has gotten some flak from others for having unsubstantiated claims and that nobody has come forward with any tangible evidence. Well I am glad to throw my hat in the ring and would have you all know that Jah is also following this and is of the mind that BP has some valid concerns. Heck, you could probably look at jah's thread in the staff section and find some of the evidence that you are looking for.

 

[Droppersneck]

I think that would be a good start, in regards to more diversity of thought/opinion. It is even more frustrating then that when a certain subforum selects a free thinking individual for moderator - more than once - the powers that be quash the action. It almost seems that they don't want outside thinkers among their ranks. It's interesting that BP, potato, zephyr, and annie all thought someone would be good for the position yet others on staff couldn't see it.


For the record: I know BP has gotten some flak from others for having unsubstantiated claims and that nobody has come forward with any tangible evidence. Well I am glad to throw my hat in the ring and would have you all know that Jah is also following this and is of the mind that BP has some valid concerns. Heck, you could probably look at jah's thread in the staff section and find some of the evidence that you are looking for.

I think there is value seen in individual free thinking mods, though it may not be seen that way by the admins of the site. BP is one of the last ones left, and that is likely why he felt the need to make this thread on the public forum. I think his judgment is valued which is why Alasdair has opened up this dialogue.