Tryptamines Shrooms and connection with nature

[Espiritus]

Anyone know how exactly shrooms create a feeling of connectedness with nature even in people who aren't normally crazy about nature? I know they're from the earth but I still don't see why a psychedelic that grows in nature would necessarily create such an intimate connection with nature..is that supernatural? I'm looking for a scientific explanation but any thoughts are welcome.

 

[Volsam]

In my observations, most of psychedelics, naturally obtained or synthetically made, induce similar feelings of deep appreciation of nature. I think it happens because while under affect of the psychedelic drug, we lower our conscious barriers of complex defensive mind constructs and directly feel the connection to our Mother, to Nature.

We all share the same knowledge as life species, similar cellular organisms, the Nature basically created us as we are, so it feels sooo damn good to be home after years of running in a "squirrel wheel" of made-up reality of jobs, money and technology.

Even without any psychedelics, you can feel the healing power of nature. It is scientifically proven that observation of nature increases dopamine release, so theres that as well. Nature will always make us high and happy, no matter who we are. :D

 

[mixcloudcornieaV2]

There's a video that I will link that explores how humans may have evolved they way they did because our ancestors used mushrooms for food with out quite understanding the psychedelic properties of it. This would suggest that the reason we have this profound connection with nature is because it is hardwired into our brain. The connection to nature was made millions of years ago and it rekindled by the mushrooms. Its called the stoned ape hypothesis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nxn2LlBJDl0

Enjoy

 

[Hodor]

Anyone know how exactly shrooms create a feeling of connectedness with nature even in people who aren't normally crazy about nature? I know they're from the earth but I still don't see why a psychedelic that grows in nature would necessarily create such an intimate connection with nature..is that supernatural? I'm looking for a scientific explanation but any thoughts are welcome.

The people who grow and sell shrooms are often hippie types ("we're all connected through Mother Gaia, maaaaan..."), as are many of the people who write about them, like Terrence McKenna. Even the more "legit" ethnobotanists like Stamets are still on the fringe of hippie-ism ("the mycelium is pervading the ground and breaking down dead plant matter to redistribute the nutrients through the forest... so it is sort of a metaphor for being connected through Mother Gaia, maaaan!").

Psychedelics make you wayyyy more susceptible to suggestion and break down psychological barriers within your mind, thus increasing "connectedness" with your surroundings.
Since you already associate shrooms with hippie ideas (whether you believe them in a sober state or not) AND you're likely tripping somewhere in the great outdoors, it is only logical that the average shroom trip would involve an increased appreciation of nature.

 

[psy997]

Or, maybe there's some truth to the idea that we are actually deeply interconnected and entwined with nature. It's not like traditions from all across the world have been saying so for thousands and thousands of years 8)

 

[Moxious]

Or, maybe traditions all across the world didn't have a thorough enough understanding of ego loss and how the concept of self is assembled in the brain, so they just described what was happening form their primitive perspective 8)

OT, like I just said, the feeling of connectedness is related to the concept of self and how psychedelics manipulate the maintenance of that concept. If you're in nature it makes sense nature would be incorporated into your sense of self. Shrooms are just particularly good at inducing that effect

The really good question is why this effect happens in nature, but more with plants and animals than say rocks and dirt. Is it simply the recognition as something as alive/potentially alive? I wonder what would happen if you were tripping by mt rushmore or something like a statue. Reminds me of the problem of material constitution - is a statue just the bronze that formed it, or does it differ in some other important aspect? It seems to have additional properties the raw bronze never had, but from whence did they come? Suggests that observation itself can cause identity, which is weird to think about haha

 

[G_Chem]

I think this comes down to the nature of psychedelics/empathogens (I lump them often together) more so than a debate between natural vs synthetic.

For me, the substances which are most likely to turn me into a tree hugging hippie, bare foot and all.. Are MDA, MDMA and Mescaline. MDA being the strongest. I get an immense love for everything, Mother Earth, humanity, etc.

Some Mescaline tea and MDMA has had me roaming the woods damn near naked lol, I'd probably of cried if I stepped on an ant. You see the importance of ALL living beings, you see how your on an equal level of importance as the tree your leaning on or the caterpillar crawling across one of its leaves. I've got a great trip report on that elsewhere on the internet from like 2014, had a life changing experience with those two.

I personally believe with these substances we are able to connect on some level to nature around us, and at least the other living creatures/plants/etc we see. I don't think it's something like an expectation as another poster talked about, I've never thought these drugs would alter my thoughts about Mother Earth in such a way. I grew up pretty isolated from hippie culture and psychedelic culture and don't think I was swayed in that way. It's just an innate feature of these drugs.

-GC

 

[psy997]

Or, maybe traditions all across the world didn't have a thorough enough understanding of ego loss and how the concept of self is assembled in the brain, so they just described what was happening form their primitive perspective 8)

Ah yes, the many communities of individuals exploring the interior realms for most of their time here were more misguided than the culturally lost psychedelic explorers of the 20th and 21st centuries. That must be it

 

[G_Chem]

^^*Haha beautiful..

-GC

 

[Hodor]

Ah yes, the many communities of individuals exploring the interior realms for most of their time here were more misguided than the culturally lost psychedelic explorers of the 20th and 21st centuries. That must be it

"Ancient Wisdom" is perhaps the most overrated concept in existence.

Practitioners of Traditional Chinese Medicine had been treating erectile dysfunction with tiger penises for thousands of years, but were upstaged by synthetic PDE5 inhibitors.
In parts of Africa, there are people who believe in the curative powers of potions made from the body parts of human albinos, because a shaman told them so.

Or, if that sounds too colonialist to you, consider how white people had been using bloodletting to treat pretty much everything for millennia, until it dawned upon them that the first step in treating sick people should be *not* to unnecessarily deprive them of precious blood... and that surgery should be performed by a specialized medical professional, not the guy who's also your hairstylist.

 

[Moxious]

Ah yes, the many communities of individuals exploring the interior realms for most of their time here were more misguided than the culturally lost psychedelic explorers of the 20th and 21st centuries. That must be it

I didn't say they were misguided, they say the same stuff anybody would say with limited knowledge of neurology who took psychedelics. Their understanding was purely experiential, whereas we now have additional information.

If we are so culturally lost, why is it that virtually any person who takes psychedelics can identify with what earlier cultures were referring to and their intuitive explanations usually align with them as well? It's only a subset of those who understand that experiences can be illusory. From an 'early' perspective, anything you experience 'really happens' on some level, somewhere. There was nothing to suggest that those alternate realities, aren't. There still isn't any proof which is why people like you still hold these beliefs, but as everyone knows you can't prove a negative. Until someone can show something definitive, I'll remain happily agnostic for the fact I know I'm not allowing myself to be misled.

 

[psy997]

"Ancient Wisdom" is perhaps the most overrated concept in existence.

Practitioners of Traditional Chinese Medicine had been treating erectile dysfunction with tiger penises for thousands of years, but were upstaged by synthetic PDE5 inhibitors.
In parts of Africa, there are people who believe in the curative powers of potions made from the body parts of human albinos, because a shaman told them so.

Or, if that sounds too colonialist to you, consider how white people had been using bloodletting to treat pretty much everything for millennia, until it dawned upon them that the first step in treating sick people should be *not* to unnecessarily deprive them of precious blood... and that surgery should be performed by a specialized medical professional, not the guy who's also your hairstylist.

This doesn't even warrant a reply. Push your intellectual boundaries then try again.

I didn't say they were misguided, they say the same stuff anybody would say with limited knowledge of neurology who took psychedelics. Their understanding was purely experiential, whereas we now have additional information.

If we are so culturally lost, why is it that virtually any person who takes psychedelics can identify with what earlier cultures were referring to and their intuitive explanations usually align with them as well? It's only a subset of those who understand that experiences can be illusory. From an 'early' perspective, anything you experience 'really happens' on some level, somewhere. There was nothing to suggest that those alternate realities, aren't. There still isn't any proof which is why people like you still hold these beliefs, but as everyone knows you can't prove a negative. Until someone can show something definitive, I'll remain happily agnostic for the fact I know I'm not allowing myself to be misled.

Better than Hodor. Unsure how to reply though, given the very different frameworks of reality we're operating under. As I stated in our PM conversation, these issues are difficult, to say the least, to discuss when one side is entrenched in their understanding. I'llbe provoking and name in this case, it's you Hodor too.

Tell me how we're not culturally lost. Also, your question ie. psychedelics and understanding previous cultures does nothing to further your point, and in fact, goes greatly towards proving the model that I'm operating under and arguing for. The reason we can take psychedelics and have the same interpretations is two-fold, as I'm seeing it now. One, there is truth to the interpretations, it is intuitive, and as manifestations of the same truths being discussed here, of course we're going to understand and intuit these patterns, we are a part of them. Two, it's in our DNA and our collective species' memory.

 

[Hodor]

Tell me how we're not culturally lost.

I'll tell you when you tell me what you mean when you say "culturally lost".
Not being sarcastic here - a lot of people, from far-right futurists to far-left anarcho-primitivists will agree with your statement, but obviously, these groups have very different definitions of what that "being culturally lost" entails.

Are you saying that we need to go back to a culture that is more... traditional? More homogenous? Less homogenous? That the boundaries between cultures are getting blurred because of "globalism", and that we should go back to an "ethno-pluralist" world? That we should fuse various traditional ideas into a sort of new-age spiritualism a la Osho?
That "culture" is based on "ancient truths", and that human civilization is only driving us further away from them? That, indeed, the idea of "culture" itself is the antithesis of unadulterated, ancient truth, and that the issue isn't that "we've lost our culture", it's that "we're lost because of culture"? Do humans need to "know their place" and renounce individualism, or is individualism being crushed by our modern technocratic society? Etc. etc.

 

[Moxious]

The reason we can take psychedelics and have the same interpretations is two-fold, as I'm seeing it now. One, there is truth to the interpretations, it is intuitive, and as manifestations of the same truths being discussed here, of course we're going to understand and intuit these patterns, we are a part of them. Two, it's in our DNA and our collective species' memory.

I'm familiar with these explanations from your camp, and I agree it puts us at an impasse as it's purely perspective leading us to our conclusions. For my part, I see the intuitions you're referring to as emergent from commonalities in our brain structure and memories so basic they're common to all. To that extent I can agree to the idea of experiences residing in DNA, in the sense that our DNA defines our brain structure, and our brain structure defines our experiences. I can also agree in a sort of collective memory in the sense that we all have extremely similar early memories, i.e. perinatal memories, and another sort of collective memory in terms of what's considered 'common knowledge'. At the same time I don't think there's anything in our DNA that a person can consciously recall or bring up through any sort of meditation, or any reserve of collective knowledge that people can draw on to learn new things. The most compelling reason I have to hold those beliefs is that those who claim to be able to do the above either can't do so in a controlled setting, or the information is so remote it can't be confirmed by any standard.

 

[psy997]

Fortunately I don't subscribe to the, what I'd call, regressive "back to Earth" perspective, no. Evolution only goes forwards. My idea of what is needed culturally in this moment begins and really ends with - as I can't predict the future - communication and a value on understanding others' worldviews and, in doing so, beginning to create bridges of mutual understanding, care, compassion, and empathy.

I think the simplest explanation of culturally lost would be that a) we have no shared reality, we are instead a world filled with individuals and groups with staggeringly different worldviews and realities and b) our cultural values have been reduced to consumerism, narcissism, convenience, and so on and so forth - I don't think I have to continue that line of thought for you to understand what I mean, let me know if I do.

I like that reply, Moxious. Thank you. I've had many experiences of tapping into collective knowledge - albeit a single group, not that of all of humanity - and, I can do nothing to prove their validity considering the subjectivity of said experiences.

 

[marley is good]

I luv tripping

 

[Moxious]

^best response

 

[Volsam]

I really wish we as species will transcend the difference between science (with its reductionist approach) and spirituality (with all its vagueness) and find a link to make it all work for everyone. I agree with psy997 that it takes a lot of understanding, from each one of us.
I think it will inevitably happen but just want to experience that while alive.

IMO our understanding of reality is still very childish and egocentric, theres lots to learn and accept...

And also, if not with nature, what else are you going to make connections with? There are other people, yes, but they are also creations of nature. And there is also an internal world which is basically our personal memory of what we have ever experienced, so we can make connections between those memory chunks. What else???
That leaves us with a thought that psychedelics amplify the need to create connections and amplify the resulting experience that comes from our senses.

 

[Hilopsilo]

Some very interesting thoughts in this thread. I sort of agree with both sides lol.

I agree with you Psy that humans are intertwined with nature and have a deep connection with it that we as a society have come to neglect, to an extent. This has been most well documented scientifically as the Biophilia hypothesis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biophilia_hypothesis). In short, we evolved in close contact with nature over millions of years and therefore have an innate connection with it, we did not evolve in the concrete jungles many of us live in today. It's certainly not regressive to acknowledge this, I've studied this a bit at university and its certainly not some pseudoscience Djavid avocado crap. It's been pretty well studied that nature coaxes out positive emotions in us; stress relief, relaxation, feelings of calm, etc. that supports the biophilia hypothesis and savannah hypothesis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savannah_hypothesis and also prospect refuge theory, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Appleton). In short, our connection with nature is probably best explained through evolutionary theories.

But thats exactly it, we've come far enough to be able to articulate and understand these phenomena on a theoretical and scientific basis rather than attribute it to some heady bullshit. Sort of, viewing things as systemic rather than purely holistic..

As for people who don't normally like nature/the outdoors, I just think these people don't know they like it yet because they've grown up in places where they don't necessarily have access or opportunity to experience nature in a positive way. Studies have been done that indicate people who live in very inner-city, poorer areas have a negative perception of nature due to neighborhood parks being associated with crime and violence.

Its rare I find someone who enjoys tripping but doesn't also like the outdoors, I think the experiences go hand in hand; taking a trip. Where would you rather be? At a bar? In your basement playing video games? Dinner with your parents? Psychedelics have made me like the outdoors more just because of how much fun I've had hiking/camping while tripping. I enjoy these activities sober as well, but I think psychedelics gave me an appreciation for them and helped me discover that I enjoy it. Psychedelics have always helped me be open minded and find new things I like; looking back most of the things I like to do I discovered my interest and enjoyment of them through psychedelic drugs (making music & getting outside with nature mainly).

I know people who dislike the outdoors, but they are also the last people I imagine would like to trip either, and they don't

 

[motiv311]

you know what looks cooler than nature while tripping, a city view