A simple(ish) framework for understanding the families of psychedelic drugs?

[Hilopsilo]

I've been looking for like a sort of "family tree" for psychedelic drugs that would help me to a greater understanding of how they're all related to each other. I haven't been able to find one, but I'd like someone to tell me if my currently understanding is accurate; this is sort of how I explain them:

As I understand it, there are basically two main families of psychedelic drugs; tryptamines, phenethylamines, and the smaller family "ergoloids" (is that the correct term? Like the LSD family...) is somewhere in between.

Phenethylamines being relatively less introspective, higher energy and longer lasting. This is maybe largest family, containing MDxx, 2C-x, DOx, nbomes and the entheobotanical grandfather being mescaline.

Tryptamines is the counterpart family here, being relatively more introspective, lower energy/sedating and shorter lasting. This family contains 4-subs, 5-subs, DxT, MxT and many entheobotanical "ancesters" such as mushrooms or ayahuasca. These are the only psychedelics potentiate by MAOIs.

Then, somewhere in between these groups is the "LSD family" (not sure what to call it exactly). Its a much smaller family, and other than LSD and entheobotanical forms of LSA, only recently have they become available. Shares many attributes of both of the other families (which also share aspects between each other since all psychedelic drugs have similarities). I've heard these referred to as "ergoloids", "ergolines" or "indoles", although I've read that the tryptamine family are also indoles, so I'm a bit confused here.

Is this explanation accurate?

Would love to know any knowledge or explanations of how they're all related or how to categorize them meaningfully.

 

[Inzo]

Maybe in the future or even now it would be better to understand psychs from a pharmacology stand point seeing as chemistry seems to be producing new drugs that are criss crossing their effects but that will probably way down thd road. Right know you got the substituted Tryptamines , simple tryptamined, phenethyamines, amphetamines and lysergsmides and probably others beyond my scope this point in time. Depends how deep you wanna go.

 

[Pfafffed]

Not a bad start, but maybe overreaches a bit? Plenty of tryptamines (aMT, for instance) have a long duration, while plenty of phenethylamines have short durations (like 2C-D). As to which are more stimulating, I think that there is a lot of individual variation. I find most psychedelics stimulating, apart from a few exceptions that are neutral or sedating, with no significant difference between trypts and PEAs

 

[Xorkoth]

You're mostly correct. Ergoloids (more commonly referred to as lysergamides) are actually very complex and specialized tryptamines, but certainly I consider them their own family. And tryptamines are not the only ones potentiated by MAOIs, all psychedelics are potentiated by MAOIs, in fact a lot of drugs are.

You're correct that both tryptamines and lysergamides are indoles.

But yeah you can make general statements, but there are always outliers. As Pfaffed said, AMT for example is a tryptamine but it's long-lasting and stimulating and feels similar to MDMA in many ways. And 2C-E can be quite ego-dissolving even though it's a phenethylamine.

 

[Diethighlamide]

I think the word you may be looking for is Lysergamides, the "LSD" family of substances

 

[Pfafffed]

Yeah, as Xorkoth said, there's some uncertainty about which drugs are potentiated by MAOIs/RIMAs. For one, not all are specific, some inhibiting MAOIa, others MAOIb. Some are specific, becoming nonspecific at high doses. As I understand it, this should influence whether they potentiate tryptamines or PEAs. However, I and many others have found that syrian rue alkaloids have greatly potentiated mescaline, more than can reasonably be explained by synergy between two psychoactive substances. Based on what I know about their pharmacology, this simply shouldn't be possible. Also, potentiation of PEAs can be risky business. Well, it all can be risky, I suppose, but while the number of tryptamines that have caused adverse reactions with RIMAs are few (aMT, 5-MeO-DMT, etc,) the use of MAOIs like selegilene with PEAs seems pretty widely contraindicated. I think that may be due to a greater risk of hypertensive crisis in the latter, while it may mostly be serotonin syndrome in the former, but don't quote me on that

 

[Beenhead]

Dont forget, Lysergamides, or Ergolines as I tend to call them have the phenethylamine backbone in them as well as the indole.

While these all may be potentiated by MAOis not all of them ought to be. There a risks involved with doing this with several phenethylamine drugs

Alpha substituted indoles seem to be the most toxic of the indole psychedelics.

Psychedelic amphetamines and the benzo furan derivitives are the mosy dangerous phenethylamines.

Interestingly enough the most dangerous ergolines thus far are the non psychedelic ones, as LSD is very safe and id reckon its honogues and analogs are similar but time will tell

 

[Hodor]

However, I and many others have found that syrian rue alkaloids have greatly potentiated mescaline, more than can reasonably be explained by synergy between two psychoactive substances. Based on what I know about their pharmacology, this simply shouldn't be possible.

A significant portion of mescaline is excreted as 3,4,5-trimethoxyphenylacetic acid and other carboxylic acid metabolites, which points to it being a substrate of monoamine oxidase... so I don't see why a potentiation of mescaline would be unexpected.

Is it because syrian rue is primarily an MAO-A inhibitor?

MAO-B degrades certain phenylethylamine-type trace amines and neurotransmitters, but that doesn't necessarily say that it is also the primary (let alone the only) enzyme responsible for the metabolism of mescaline - MAO-B's binding pocket may be too small for the mescaline molecule, leaving its metabolism up to the more spacious / less selective MAO-A. And at higher doses, harmala alkaloids will start inhibiting MAO-B anyway.

 

[Hodor]

Psychedelic amphetamines and the benzo furan derivitives are the mosy dangerous phenethylamines.

You mean the N-methoxybenzylated ones, i.e. the NBOMe's? Benzofurans like 6-APB or 5-MAPB are typically used as empathogens (serotonin releasing agents with stimulating and/or psychedelic qualities), and aren't particularly dangerous if used sparingly (6-APB is a powerful 5HT2B agonist, so daily use would be highly cardiotoxic, though).

while the number of tryptamines that have caused adverse reactions with RIMAs are few (aMT, 5-MeO-DMT, etc,) the use of MAOIs like selegilene with PEAs seems pretty widely contraindicated. I think that may be due to a greater risk of hypertensive crisis in the latter, while it may mostly be serotonin syndrome in the former, but don't quote me on that.

aMT is not just a psychedelic but first and foremost a triple releasing agent. As such its effects (and potential dangers) are less comparable to tryptamine psychedelics like psilocin than they are to phenylethylamine-type empathogens like MDA.

Also, selegiline is an irreversible inhibitor of MAO-B (and at higher doses MAO-A as well), whereas RIMA's are reversible. Mixing shrooms with e.g. phenelzine or tranylcypromine might cause a much stronger potentiation than what would be possible with syrian rue.

 

[tacodude]

There's also things like ibogaine and the harmala Alkaloids. It's not that simple.... I was told a long time ago shamans walk one of 4 paths bring Ayahuasca, mushrooms, cactus, or the atropine type compounds producing family of plants.