• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand

Phenylpiperidine Opioids - how low can you go?

Chicken - you aren't impressing anyone. Slow down with the speed. Aldehyde & nitroalkane with NaOH catalyst yields the nitroalcohol which can be reduced to product using simple CTH. The Henry Reaction is occasionally used by people making aminorex derivatives. There IS A VAST amount of data on CTH. Repeating the same rant on multiple threads makes it seem like an overhyped teenager. Grow up.
 
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Yes he did it behind Nutt's back and since Dr. Dave is a close friend of professor Nutt, I have every expectation of Perdue's legal team demanding a decent slice of the profits. In fact, they may wait until the company is doing REALLY well before issuing a legal cease and desist. It's cheaper to give away 50% of the profits rather than not having the product on the market for YEARS. If Pace IS a success, Dave can close them down and offer the rights to someone else.

That is, if the DEA or the FDA don't get to him first. Selling a novel psychoactive substance explicitly for human consumption is illegal here, which Golan doesn't seem to realize, but I'm not familiar enough with American law when it comes to uncontrolled substances to know whether that's the case there as well. But surely people have resorted to euphemistic product descriptors such as "bath salts" and "plant food" for a reason. If it becomes popular the Feds will make it illegal one way or the other. If he's lucky he will make a bunch of money in the interim and avoid prison.
 
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That is, if the DEA or the FDA don't get to him first. Selling a novel psychoactive substance explicitly for human consumption is illegal here, which Golan doesn't seem to realize, but I'm not familiar enough with American law when it comes to uncontrolled substances to know whether that's the case there as well. But surely people have resorted to euphemistic product descriptors such as "bath salts" and "plant food" for a reason. If it becomes popular the Feds will make it illegal one way or the other. If he's lucky he will make a bunch of money in the interim and avoid prison.

I don't believe for 1 minute that he is actually capable. I'm guessing a teenager with a speed habit.

NOBODY who is actually making stuff EVER places such data anywhere on line. I have mentioned this to him several times.... and yet he can't resist. Who he thinks he's impressing I just don't know. I stay within the law and have repeatedly urged him to do the same and yet.... and yet.... still, think of him as a 'sacrificial anode' since the spooks always go for the low hanging fruit.
 
I mean, reaction between nitroalkanes ane NaOH, KOH etc. react to produce nitronates. If you doubt this, look it up, it's a known reaction.

And on a scale like that, in drums, it'd give me the willes, apparently the lower the size of the nitronate, the less stable. E.g sodium or potassium methyl nitronate least stable of all, that from a group I hydroxide would be least, that from nitroethane a little less unstable, and the higher the mol.wt the greater the stability.

It's just the thought of using an alkali hydroxide base for the cat. base in a Knoevanagel on industrial drum scale, it does sound pretty risky.

As for me myself, i've no stimulant habit. I enjoy the chemistry of them more than I'll ever enjoy the product. Weird, perhaps, but that is just my way.
 
I mean, reaction between nitroalkanes ane NaOH, KOH etc. react to produce nitronates. If you doubt this, look it up, it's a known reaction.

And on a scale like that, in drums, it'd give me the willes, apparently the lower the size of the nitronate, the less stable. E.g sodium or potassium methyl nitronate least stable of all, that from a group I hydroxide would be least, that from nitroethane a little less unstable, and the higher the mol.wt the greater the stability.

It's just the thought of using an alkali hydroxide base for the cat. base in a Knoevanagel on industrial drum scale, it does sound pretty risky.

As for me myself, i've no stimulant habit. I enjoy the chemistry of them more than I'll ever enjoy the product. Weird, perhaps, but that is just my way.


The P2NPs, are nitrolifins, so no tautomers so NO nitronates. ANYONE who has had the misfortune to have 50Kg to reduce will realize how stable they are. Lots of expensive complex hydrides and a sloooow quench. I did it in a place and at a time that it was quite legal. TMM has been doing it from the early 70s. After a quick check I realize he's still doing it. Books don't trump decades of practical experience and between us all that's about 120 years.

On reflection, probably better you don't do it... or any practical chemistry, in fact. I will watch news reports with interest, kid.
 
My point was that a benzaldehyde and a base and nitroalkane are reacted to give a nitroalkene.




WHY not use an amine acetate? thereby negating the potential.

Nitromethane and nitroethane DO form nitronates with NaOH, KOH etc. So why not use the amine acetates?
 
Yeah, it was the nitro(m)ethane I was concerned about.

Also,one DOESN'T need any of the fancy hydrides to perform the reductions. Ordinary, nicely behaved NaBH4 works just fine to prepare target nitroalkanes (E.g other than nitromethane/ethane)

What is a butterfly mine btw? not familiar with the design? presumably using sodium or potassium m/ethylnitronate do you mean? but amine acetate bases are the current state of the art, apparently, particularly ethanolamine-O-acetate, as a RT-ionic liquid, this I've never tried, apparently gives fantastic yields.

Prior to to that, for the production of nitroalkenes, from the nitroalkane, a base, and the aldehyde of one's choice, microwave chemistry works wonders.It's quite amazing how fast and how much superior purity the finished phenylnitroalkene is compared to any conventional heating method provides.

HOURS on a steam bath, I've seen P2NP (unsubstituted) using a 900W MW oven, unmodified, supplied with only the RBF for the reactants, an alcohol n thermometer within to monitor temperature, initial slightly longer burst, then short, short bursts to bring it to 80 'C-85 'C (note-for nitoethenes not nitrostyrenes, less experience there, might try a synthesis in the MW of unsubstituted beta-nitrostyrene, since it doesn't fall foul of the socalled 'law' the MODA as it isn't psychoactive) but P2NP can be produced from the relative precursor aldehyde and nitroalkane, plus amine acetate base (some of course respond better than
others to different amine acetates as catalysts. Personally, triethylenetetramine acetate is the favourite. Originally, I got mine from an antique formulation of an epoxy hardener, a/b'ed and multiply recrystallized, and it works like the hand of god himself, if god decided to get into a catalytic mood)

Just for fun, once, I even used the crude epoxy curing portion, and still got great yields, although gloorpy and needing dissolution in a little iPA plus GAA dropwise until neutral ) still wonderful yields,

BTW, the nitroalkenes, both 2C and 3C, it's a lot better, by far to use isopropanol, it'll save one much effort and time and tearing your hair out if iPA is used if any solvent is.

But solvent-less in the MW, just catalyst amine acetate, aldehyde, nitroparaffin, purified or pure to begin with TETA as the acetate salt, you won't ever want to use MeOH again, believe you me you won't. The nitroalkenes are far more soluble in MeOH and it needs distilling off, whereas much can be crashed out in a freezer using iPA (dry) not that they are soluble in H2O to a great extent, P2NP certainly is not so.

If you'd like to discuss the finer points of how this reaction has progressed, feel free to PM me. You'll find, that NOBODY is using xOH (where x=alkali or alkaline earth hydroxides) to perform this. It's ALWAYS a 1' or, with TETA-acetate 1'&2' amine of course. And despite promoting it, few use TETA acetate despite the wonderful yields of 3C-arylnitroalkenes, you know I've no reason to mislead you, or desire to, but this is what I see among those who prepare various nitroalkenes.

And without fancy hydrides, not counting NaBH4 as 'fancy', excess borohydride is used ideally, to form the substituted nitroalkane, and from then, the nastier less environmentally caring folk, use Al/Hg, sometimes even on the nitroalkene, but prior reduction to nitroalkane followed by acidic dissolving metal reduction, using Fe, HCl, a catalytic quantity of FeCl3 hydrate, or else, GAA, FeCl3 and Fe dust, will reduce an arylnitroalkane to the corresponding arylaminoalkane within 2-3 hours at 80-85 'C.

It'd be an interesting PM discussion if you wish to participate, so you can keep abreast of what the truly modern innovations are.

Microwave chemistry really is, in this particular application, from the three primary constituents, to the nitroalkene, smaller quantities (ounces) can be done in 15 minutes. I haven't actually timed it to see HOW low one can go with how much, but that has been done on a scale of 200ml total, not counting the catalyst.

NOBODY uses hydroxide these days, nobody. It's available of course to nigh on anyone, but why would they go to the effort to procure butylamine, ethylamine and prepare the respective acetates? truthfully, I have NEVER seen a single instance of hydroxide being used.

And using MeOH is asking for tears. The end product is far, far more soluble, than if isopropanol bee used. iPA is just superior, this I can state from actual experience. A loo-roll plug in the top of the flask to prevent pressure buildup in the MW, plus hold the thermometer in position, prevents the nitroalkene, which are irritants, from exiting the vessel and acting upon the body of the experimenter as an irritant of areas protected not by gas mask, face visor, gloves, blast shield, etc.

If you should fancy a tete'a'tete pertaining to the state of the art with this reaction, feel free to PM me, and I shall direct you to a forum, or we could go via PM. You'd find it interesting I am sure.

Borohydride being the only hydride used, and for nitroalkane>aminoalkane then combination of copper boride (stated by some to be copper nanoparticles, but given the similarity of preparation of this reagent to that of dinickel boride, or to cobalt boride P1 or P2 types I am of the belief that it is not Cu(O) but Cu2B prepared in-situ. Its used in isopropanol and many are getting good yields, using CuCl2 reduced in-situ. Just like nickel boride, although in this case as Cl- can act as a catalytic poison on nickel cats, nickel acetate produces a superior catalyst when preparing nickel boride P1/P2 type. The process is virtually identical, NaBH4 reduction in-situ under heavy stirring, either in ethanolic or isopropanolic media to prepare the more highly active P1 type, P2 is of lower activity due to a greater quantity of adherent sodium metaborate, whereas with P1, iPA or EtOH be used, obviously not MeOH given it reacts vigorously with borohydride, gives a catalyst of greater activity due to their being less NaBO2 adherent to the particles)

The visual appearance of either, in the solvent, is as a black slurry, identical to P1 'copper boride' from CuCl2, assuming it is as I believe, and find far more likely than CuNPs, Cu2B. It won't reduce an arylnitroalkene, but once borohydride has done it's work reducing nitroalkene to nitroalkane the nitroalkane intended has been garnered by many in nice yields.

I'd like to know definitively, proof positive, but regardless, the reagent as described DOES perform it's duty. Preparing methyl or ethylamine would be trivial doing thus I do not doubt, although admittedly, it is not these that this copper boride/claimed Cu(0)NPs is employed to form.

It, like cobalt boride or nickel boride works not alone, but when paired with NaBH4 in iPA, the results are good. One particularly nice thing about it, is that it is lowering the clandestine usage of Al/Hg. Which besides being temperamental at best and terrible at worst, plus in either extreme, or in the middle, no matter what, that's still using and generating Hg based slop that far too many people consider it acceptable to just dump!

A practice that I truly despise as the unforgivable abomination it is. If ever you really really REALLY wanted to piss me off to a degree I'd be out for blood,that'd be the way to do so. *shudders*.
 
KBH4 is the place to go my friend - so cheap and so widely used. LAH is awful to scale & Red-Al is so exothermic that quenching a moderate 20Kg batch (in 50l of toluene) took 48 hours. That's just not productive enough. NaBH4 is actually readily available but no good if it reaches digital media. Yeah, One friend got 55% burns and the other 35%. They both made it but when you find out that they have been airlifted to a specialist burn unit IN ANOTHER COUNTRY then you know it's bad. I had to folk out for their whole legal stuff (but I know I've told you the top Dutch advokaart - keep hold of that name). Nitroalkanes are not much fun. nitroalkenes a pain. You need to reduce to nitroalkene with KBH4 (unless you think Red-Al is cheap) to the nitroalkane and then use Red-Al. Have you used it? The packaging has 3 vessels with absorbant. It's dissolved in toluene and it's like treacle. Look at it's MW and how much H+ it donates.

Aldehydes are fine for the 2,5-dimethoxy class of PEA but a fucking nightmare to scale. I see you go for the ketone which makes sense but from that point, formamide does it's stuff. We checked if CH3NH2.HCl was watched (it was) so we tried many salts... ALL watched. Then we aspied methylamine carbonate. Green light. That's decades ago. Go for stuff nobody else even know exists. How does the PSA work on untested stuff? How close is pseudoephedrine and meth? Looks what's going on - if it's never been tested, burn down the CPS expert by pointing out that pseudoephedrine & meth are just an O apart. Without human studies, how does 'likely' stand up? Did you know that in 2017 there were 500 arrests for 'intent to supply' and/or 'production' and just 25 people were found guilty?

Anything tha means dealink with many kgs is a drag. IF all goes well, remember to keep your old shoe-boxes.
 
digital media? how is it no good if ordered online?

Never used Red-Al, considering it though for a certain rather special aldehyde.

For plain ketone though...I like NaBH4 in excess, to prevent parasitic michael addition and polymeric glorp-mareish horrors. Addition of the nitroalkene to the boro, so it's guaranteed more or less to meet up with some borohydride before it ever meets any reduced product, strong stirring.

Then acidic iron reduction, GAA, FeCl3, 80-85 'C.

Or else formation of the ketoxime and Bouveault-Blanc
that nitro group to an amine sure as shit stinks and theresa may is a rape sprog who needs mounting on a rusty metal spike as a lesson to the wankers from hell of the future.

One needs many eq. of Red-Al per mol. substrate does one not? isn't it like 6-7 moles of Red-Al per mole of substrate? bugger that for a lark when you can pull off the same end result with either the acidic iron reduction or formation of a ketoxime, sodium metal in anhydrous EtOH.

That nitro reduction....nitromethane....see where I'm going here? nobody looks twice at NM, unlike nitroethane which one does need to watch one's posterior when obtaining.

That said however, reductive ethylamination of THAT ketone, ethyl is nicer than methyl. And dutch egg drink? I don't follow you there any more than I do about borohydride and online.
 
I have spelled it out several times and others have agreed. ANYTHING you see on this or any drug site will automatically be scraped. E-mails (even with encryption) are utterly insecure. If you read it here, you can be certain that the NCA, DEA and spooks will also have read it and ensured that they know your physical location. 20 years writing computer games put me in the perfect position to detect and analyse Double Pulser & Eternal Blue (bugs in DOS virtual interrupt handler). With Windows 10 they simply use the terminal-like functionality to keep tabs on people. Linux is better but still not secure. Ironically, web-books are the most secure given the sheer number of different OSs & CPUs but UK law means your provider records all IPs. The Investigatory Powers Bill gained royal ascent in 2016 & the 'Thematic Warrant' allows large groups (like members of a site) to be watched. The US laws are even more draconian.

All of those cookie policies? Have you actually read the text and then actually looked at said cookies? Very easy to add invisible to user cookies that aren't cleared. Even the RTC is usable. Have a look at what functions the expanded BIOS supports. No OS loaded at that point but the unique CPUID can easily be uploaded in a ping and as for the CPU microcode updates... that's just asking for malicious code. But why even run a (hidden) process within an OS? Just reserve some L1 & L2 space that's in an SGX redoubt (so it's invisible) and use that terminal connectivity. The easiest way to spot it is to leave the PC doing something that uses NO internet access and after a while, suddenly clock-drift start being fixed. It's all in 2048 byte blocks so keystroke logging can just use stenography. We can't see what IS the encrypted data. Impossible to know but with Karma Police fully in place, gateways are recorded. If you think Tor is secure, I have bad news. The 'white hat' hackers may lag by a few months but since all transfers are recorded, it just mean the knock comes some time later.

Snail mail has a 502 year long legal history that officially means that they need a warrant but I have news, they ignore the law. Use a cut-out (2 is better). The only truly secure place to store data is in your head and the only secure way of communicating with others is by meeting them. You can go down the 'burner' mobile phone route in which you only use a cheap, unregistered PayG a few times. That's what terrorists do... but how long do they store mobile data for and how secure is it really? How many times before patterns emerge?

My logic is to output reams of novel reagents because when does it become too much to police? The RCs defeated the MoDA with the CB1 ligands proving to be impossible to control because addition of a halide (for example) made something almost identical to it's parent, but not under legal control. Did you know 500 people were charged under the PSA law in 2017 and there was a total of just 25 convictions? There a whole classes I've never committed to the digital arena. I'm in the fortunate position of patenting new agents but I look after my friends so when they finish a stretch, having a legal (but generally unknown) item of commerce, you visit and tell them. It looks like Category 1 precursors require lots of paperwork if you need more than 25Kg, everything in Category 2 has an alternative (like the AA alternatives you know) NOT listed and Category 3 only needs paperwork for huge amounts and it's all for export to make C.

Usenet is somewhat more secure because you know precisely how many bytes should be sent and you can use a second, passive PC confirming the fact. It's used much less that the dark web so it isn't a priority but ALL of these kind of sites are based on the alt.drugs.chemistry forum that was just ASCII. It uses so little bandwidth that you really can set up a PC with MS DOS / DR DOS / Free DOS or whatever and use a dial-up connection. Since it's just a set of connected BBSs, you can repeat the 'Mr Toasted' route by having a PC that ONLY has dial-up. Not hard to generate huge 1-time pads per user. I think that one was about 2001-2005 until the guy moved.

Synopsis - we have given up all of our digital privacy in exchange for convenience. We didn't scrutinize those terms and conditions and we didn't put up a fight against the erosion of our privacy, A single use 256-bit symmetrical key will not be compromised by quantum computers, it's the asymmetrical key-exchange in the modern ciphers that are insecure. I await proof that the new 'quantum proof' protocols are actually secure and if you want provably secure encryption, the 1-time-pad system has been in use for over 100 years and unless a pad is reused, it's utterly secure.
 
It was a bit of confusion regarding quite what you meant by 'digital media' in the first place.

I wasn't quite sure, if you meant, since you spoke of severe burns immediately after, if the 'digital media' was in the sense of information technology, or as in 'reaction media, the body parts which have digits on the end', a sort of black humor way of saying 'burnt his fingers off'. See what I mean now?

As for patenting...not on my income. And knowing my luck, if I did, it'd get published only for some bugger in china to peruse it and decide to make off with it.

And agreed as to one-time pads. In my own non-digital lab notebooks, I use references that I'll understand, but that aside from very general principles, wouldn't be much good to anybody else.

As for dial-up, haven't got a choice of internet connection. I'm not well off, and quite honestly, I'm stuck where I am. Medically screwed, financially screwed, wouldn't be able to get a driving license either, at least, not, IIRC, until I'd have been five years seizure free. And I don't see that happening too soon either. I'll probably be collecting my pension by the time that comes round, if it ever does. Hell, I can't even afford a new computer atm. And this one might as well have gone ten rounds with mike tyson, only wearing a pair of rottweilers for boxing gloves. ATM it's all I can do to keep up with a few friends and contacts, can get online, and save important journal references to a flash chip, other than that, if I drop-kicked it off the roof, it might actually improve it's current functionality.

As far as paperwork goes, there are ways and there are means.

Those burns your mates suffered though, damn, thats shitty. How did it happen? Not borohydride, surely?

And, why do you specifically recommend KBH4? never used it before, although I confess, I haven't ever seen any protocol that specifically calls for KBH4 as opposed to NaBH4, LiBH4, yes, but never KBH4. And in terms of atom economy, KBH4 is getting less borohydride for one's pound and more potassium cation.
 
Red-Al - we had a genius plan to quench with isopropanol since it's much less exothermic. We were working in glass-lined steel and what we didn't consider that the quenched Red-Al wasn't soluble in toluene so when we just added a little water at the end, it set off a huge, uncontrolled quench which boiled off the 50+ L of toluene (since RA comes in toluene) in about 10 seconds so we had created what amounts to a thermobaric explosive. Then something set it off. We had dragged out the nitro(m)ethane and other highly energetic reagents before it went up. As it was, we flattened the lab and got burned. If the other stuff had gone up, we would have left a crater and killed everyone within 100m or so.

If you have a clean, air-gapped (not connected and never has been connected to any smart-media devices) PC then you can secure that. Data in/data out is via CD or even floppy. Just presume that nothing else IS secure. My ED is on an AGed PC that I got for nothing. Too old to have the extended BIOS and running Linux. Of course, you need physical security since it seems that all of those drive-encryption wares are insecure so my AGed machine is technically not in my own dwelling... so a SW won't allow legal confiscation or use of data thereon.

But just keeping it in your head is the only secure way to store data. I only talk of LEGAL things I did long ago and did not specify the country in most cases. My ongoing stuff is, as you know, super-legal.

I think the fact that 500 PSA arrests only lead to 26 convictions says a LOT. I recommend reading every case or rather NOT. The CPS have lost a LOT of cases and since a conviction would make the active known to all, it isn't in the public interest to let that happen. Since pseudoephedrine & methamphetamine only differ by a single O yet their action is totally different. An expert would have to accept the truth of that and a jury would understand it. So the term 'likely' has been undermined. Anyone who intended test the PSA would choose something sufficiently novel.

You can still do more or less what you want WITHOUT breaking the law. As a rule-of-thumb, if it's likely to fail in court (thus CPS don't prosecute), then you are within the law. So far Spice & N2O have led to convictions. In Ireland U-47700 has lead to 1 conviction. Would the title compound of this thread lead to a conviction? Almost certainly not.


If you must go online, I recommend Usenet, It's mostly just ASCII text and since a lot of stuff is on dial-up servers, the law doesn't deal with Usenet in the same way (no IP to store) and you can lodge CDs or DVDs full of 1-time pads. It costs ?10 a month. Mr. Toasted worked that way. A Server in The Netherlands (Mr. Toasted) that was managed so access was limited to a trusted group. Peer-to-peer allowed communication in a SECURE manner. A modem costs <?6 (56K). 54Kbytes/second sounds very slow but with few images, it's usually fast enough.
 
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what we didn't consider that the quenched Red-Al wasn't soluble in toluene so when we just added a little water at the end, it set off a huge, uncontrolled quench which boiled off the 50+ L of toluene (since RA comes in toluene) in about 10 seconds so we had created what amounts to a thermobaric explosive. Then something set it off.

and this, kids, is why we do experiments on a small scale before moving to 50L+.
 
and this, kids, is why we do experiments on a small scale before moving to 50L+.

We did! We had beem running at scale for almost 2 years but unbeknown to us, the stirrer had failed and the aluminium complex wasn't soluble in toluene so when we added the little bit of water, it dissolved a hole through the crust and dumped about 250mL of isopropanol straight onto the remaining Red-Al. It didn't explode at that point - it just boiled off the toluene.... it was apparently a static discharge that triggered it.

Lack of planning, lack of comprehensive risk analysis and bad luck....

It's funny looking back but at the time it wasn't funny. Now I let others do the lab work... I don't even like stuff being made on the same continent :) All I get is instrumentation data and have samples sent to HLS or whoever. That done, write it all up for patents. I much prefer doing the in-silico. Live and learn :)

I'm sure that Sciencemadness must have the most agencies watching it. Threads on DIY 12.7mm frangible uranium rounds, how to get explosives through airport security, synthesis of FOX-7, DIY gains and making grenades. A 1 stop terrorist shop.....

I mean - we aren't discussing DIY nerve agents, IEDs or brewing mycotoxins.
 
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