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  • P&S Moderators: Xorkoth | Madness

If God knows everything, how can there be free will?

God doesn't force Himself on anyone. He knocks and it's your choice to open the door and let Him in. He gives you free will. He also gives you the choice to go to hell if that's what you choose. So choose Jesus Christ. Accept Him into your heart as your Lord and Savior.

I wasn't a believer for a decade or so. I didn't call myself an atheist, but I was doing my own thing and following the darkness. Being hooked on Etizolam almost killed me and that's when God revealed Himself to me and I let Him in. That time will come for all of us. It's up to you to follow Him and be in the light or stay in the darkness. Jesus already has the victory so in my opinion, you'd be a fool to stay on the devil's side. The devil is defeated. He is working overtime to fool people who don't know how to fight back with the Word of God. The devil is taking people's lives. You see all these suicides. The devil is trying his hardest to drag people to hell because he knows his time is almost over on Earth. All I can say is stay out of the darkness and keep seeking Jesus. Keep your eyes on the Lord. He loves you and doesn't want to see you burn, but He will let you if you go down that path.

The other night, the enemy was fighting me hard and making me worry about my future. I started remembering scriptures and the Word of God. I said these scriptures aloud and fought the enemy when he made me worry about my future. When I said these, the anxiety and worry went away. Peace came over me. This is what people need to say aloud and fight back with when the devil is telling them lies and trying to make them take their life:


"God's plans for my life are for good, not evil! To give me a future and a hope!"

"God's favor will last a lifetime!"

"God is directing my steps. God is working ALL things together for my good!"

"The path of the righteous gets brighter and brighter!"

"God will lead me to a flourishing finish!"

"God will give me a long and satisfying life!"

"God's story for me ends in victory!"

"Goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life."

"I will see exceedingly, abundantly above and beyond favor and increase in my life!"

"My best days are ahead of me!"

"The rest of my life will be the best of my life!"

"The number of my days God will fulfill!"

"The righteous will flourish like a palm tree!"

"God will always make a way where I see no way!"

"Everything I touch will prosper! I will live and not die!"

"God is supplying ALL of my needs!"

"Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid!"

"No weapon formed against me shall prosper."
 
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It's comforting, in a way, to think that there is some overarching force of good and evil in the world, but in fact... it's all up to us. "The devil" is just our own internal dialogue, as is "God". We don't need something external to be good people.
 
Xorkoth said:
It's comforting, in a way, to think that there is some overarching force of good and evil in the world, but in fact... it's all up to us. "The devil" is just our own internal dialogue, as is "God". We don't need something external to be good people.
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I've learned the warfare starts in the mind. The mind is where the battlefield is. You can believe what you want, but I do not believe "the devil is just our own internal dialogue, as is God." There are real dark forces trying to bring us down and kill us.
If you are not armed with the Word of God, you will fall prey to it. The devil is a liar. He has many people convinced he doesn't even exist.

Ephesians 6:12:
"For our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the world powers of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavens."

Peter 5:8:
"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour."

2 Corinthians 10:4:
"For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds."

Meaning that with the Word of God, believers can pull down the devil's strongholds in the mind and cast them out. I've been through enough
depression, fear and suicidal thoughts to know it's not just in my head. There is real spiritual warfare going on. God is love, but Satan is fear and torment. He attacks the mind.

The Word Of God must dominate your thought life in order to defeat the enemy. It is up to believers to condemn and rebuke the enemy. Jesus has given us the power and authority. Jesus said,

"Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you."
Luke 10:19

Jesus defeated the devil already. We are supposed to tread on the enemy and keep him under our feet. The enemy has assigned demons to follow us and to thwart our plans, to dog our families, to drag us down to hell only if we believe his lies and deceit. That's why we must be on guard and replace lying thoughts with God's thoughts. We must refuse to allow negative, destructive thoughts to linger in our mind. Just because you don't believe it, doesn't mean it's not true.
 
If Jesus already defeated the devil, then how is he still trying to destroy us?

CoastTwoCoast said:
We must refuse to allow negative, destructive thoughts to linger in our mind.
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Entirely agreed... just saying, I don't need some external force to do this.

Just because you don't believe it, doesn't mean it's not true.
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Good point, although I could turn it around and say that just because you believe it, doesn't mean it's true. :)

Anyway I don't mean to shit on your beliefs, I was raised Christian and it does good things for many people. <3 I also really admire and deeply respect the teachings of Jesus.
 
Xorkoth said:
If Jesus already defeated the devil, then how is he still trying to destroy us?
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2 Corinthians 4:4
"Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don't understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God."

Meaning that Satan blinds unbelievers in order to set himself up as the God and ruler over them. There are many who don't know any better and many who are stubborn, choosing not to follow God's path. Satan influences many things in this world: government, internet, television, social media, money, ideals, opinions, goals, hopes and views of the majority of people, false religions, etc.

He tricks unbelievers into following him straight to hell. Unbelievers give Satan more power and authority than he actually has. That's how they fall prey to murder, suicide, all kinds of things.

Believers know the devil is defeated by Jesus so we know the devil does not have any power and authority in our life.
The devil will still try to attack us though. We still have to fight back against evil forces in this world. As a matter of fact, he seems to attack more when you follow the Lord.
That's why the Word of God is so important to fight back with.

Satan hates humans. He wants to steal, kill and destroy us. We are made in the image of God. We are the apple of God's eye and He loves us. Satan can't stand it! God is waiting to give mercy and grace no matter what we do. Forgiveness is there as long as we repent and accept Jesus Christ into our heart as our Lord and Savior. As the world gets darker and darker, the church gets brighter and brighter. Hope is found in the body of Christ. I'm not perfect, but I keep seeking Jesus every day because He is love and light.

It still boils down to free will, the topic of this thread. Either you're following God's path or the devil's path. Jesus is coming back and has victory in the end. All I can hope is people make the right decision.

Btw, I don't think you're shitting on my beliefs. It's interesting to discuss these things. I don't know everything about bible, I'm still learning. <3
 
@Xorkoth: jesus/god (possibly holy spirit. the divine trinity) has not yet defeated the devil. i think the first time he pushed the devil back was when he took that long walk in the desert, the basic missing years where jesus goes from like 16 to 30 overnight.

correction: the first time god whooped up on the devil is when he got cast out of heaven.

the real defeat hasn't happened yet. it's the book of revelation that everyone is keen on talking of today. end of days and all that.

think in this case "defeating" in the bible is more like resisting. letting the devil in or "winning" has to do with dealing with that temptation on a usual or even daily basis.

it's a constant struggle like you and CoastTwoCoast say. good or bad the choice is up to the individual.

or did you already know all that and i poked the elephant again?

if your jewish or muslim, there is the idea that jesus was not god in earthly form but one prophet in a long line of them. idk, i was midway gathering info by word of mouth and about ready to dig into their holy scriptures (Tanach and Quran respectively) before my own trial kicked in.

fitting in to the topic of the thread: in revelation it describes god killing the devil. it confuses me because he goes from old school biblical (fire and brimstone) to new school love and accept everything. so god killing off his first born seems hypocritical in a sense. does the devil not have his say in what he does or is god automatically going to kill him off per fate? if angels have no free will then god created the devil to be this way and therefor set the whole play up to eventually kill off the first born. kinda sad when you think about it like that.
 
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Can I just say that Jesus didn’t claim to ‘defeat the devil’. He defeated death.
 
To me god is not a person that looks over us and dishes out punishment to whoever he wants, to me god is nature and to fight against nature you always lose or get hurt. What do I mean by nature? The thing that makes the trees and grass grow, the thing that makes the rivers flow, the thing that we take for granted and happen every day in front of our eyes.

Nature is what makes us grow old and die which is why whenever I see people trying to use science to prolong their life I think that its missing the point of life altogether and is always doomed to fail.


I also think that psychological pain is caused in a lot of ways by going against our nature our true self (not our Ego),
 
Can I just recommend a book, you guys. It's been really enlightening. Got it not too long ago.

John Osteen "Power Over The Enemy". It will better explain everything you need to know about how the enemy is already defeated. I've been listening to it lately on Audible.

https://mobile.audible.com/pd/Self-...20&gclid=CICxrK_n-dwCFR2gZQodhEADnQ&gclsrc=ds

Product description:
"Forgive one another lest Satan should take advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices." 2 Corinthians 2:11

Today's Christians are largely ignorant of Satan's evil. It's why multitudes of Christians are tormented with fears, bound by addictions and sins, and torn by relationship problems. But God has given you the ultimate victory.

In this life-changing book, John Osteen teaches you how to have power over the enemy when the Tempter comes, how Jesus dealt with temptation, how to engage in spiritual warfare, how to demonstrate Satan's defeat, how to live a life of victory, and so much more.

Using practical, biblical knowledge of what you have through the great redemption in Jesus Christ and all that God has provided for you in His Word, power will come. As you become knowledgeable about the true supernatural power of God, you will rise to victory in every area of your life."


Also, I found this in my spiritual notes while listening to bible study months back:

Luke 10:19
"Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you."

Tread on the devil because the devil has already been defeated by Jesus on the cross. You do not have to defeat the enemy. All you have to do is TREAD on him and keep him under your foot. You are to enforce his defeat in your life.
We enforce his defeat by resisting him and knowing he has no right and authority in your life. He has no power in your life! That is treading upon the enemy and Jesus wants you to tread upon the enemy.
 
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With all due respect: I totally understand and respect true believers but I cannot relate. I believe but idk what in. I do know I don't give credence to any man made god. It is quite easy to spot the places where man has been...even in literature like the religious texts.


I am okay with god, christ, church, etc...but what ticks me off is fanaticism. I don't see things your way and that is totally okay, please don't pretend moral high ground because it would be purely superficial in nature. I do believe this life we experience was given to us, indeed. As a way of living I cannot commit to religious standards because some things I cannot forgive. Every now and then the cheek cannot be turned and that is just life. I still try to treat people with kindness and respect because I think it is the right thing to do. I don't need a horned man or an eternal fire pit for motivation to do what I feel is right and I reckon other folks probably don't either.
 
invegauser said:
@Foreigner: i don't understand the connection between nature vs. nurture and spiritual experiences you spoke of. to me nature vs. nurture means whether or not a person will raise their kids to be needy lil bastards, self sufficient or if both are taught in moderation; a healthy combination of self sufficient and happy. to me spiritual experiences happen regardless of circumstances. you can keep cramming them down inside you and not accepting them but if they are meant to happen they will, plus it doesn't mean you got rid of them, just ignore them. or did i miss something?
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I use nature vs. nurture because it's the scientific placeholder for the classic philosophical debate of free will versus determinism. It's our nature to exercise our free will. Do you see then how the two aspects exist as a simultaneous duality, rather than an either/or scenario?

"Spiritual experiences" is a vague way of describing a momentary situation where we experience transcendence of the self; but what I'm suggesting is that the meaning of our experiences is derived from our free will applied in moment-to-moment tasks. The tasks are a product of what life asks of us, rather than what we ask of life.

Think of it this way... you don't understand the ending of the book unless you've read the entire story. How can anyone know the meaning of life, for them, unless they have experienced the dynamic shift of meaning from moment to moment throughout their entire lives? I can start a book at its end but the ending won't have meaning until I know what came before it. Likewise I can't conclude the meaning of the story from just reading the first two chapters, or the middle.

The meaning of life comes from the whole, in the culmination of the minutiae. It's the aggregate of our free will, our choice to apply meaning, to every situation that challenges us. Now, if you have the means to avoid suffering, then it makes more sense to do that; but if you can't avoid it, then you still have free will to figure out what your suffering means. It's a task that cannot be replaced by anyone, not even God. It's up to you. And if you conclude that life is pointless and there is no meaning, then your immune system will begin to decline. It's how sick people continue to whither and die. I speak from personal experience.

Likewise, some would say that life is too complex for us to apply our limited understanding of meaning, i.e. the universe is so vast and complex that it's pointless to ascribe anything to it; when really, the issue is that we can't understand the meaning of life in its entirety, so the best we can do is apply meaning in each given moment as it changes. The point isn't that the universe is too complex to have a meaning, it's that our understanding of it is limited and so we must apply our free will to ascribe meaning ourselves. Knowledge is pointless without meaning. God can know everything but what God's knowledge means to you is another story.

I'm talking so much about meaning because the question of free will relates directly to it. We don't have control over our external circumstances, but we have control over our relationship to the meaning of the circumstances. It's not some abstract thing. It's actually very down to earth and relevant to whether or not we survive.
 
i understand, thank you.

to answer your question. yes.

that second paragraph i see the duality of and know both to be true. we create some and some are given upon request. i also tend to think some are placed on paths laying in wait for those who can travel down that road far enough.

those three middle paragraphs were well thought out and said. where were you when i was figuring this out the hard way?! haha.

i see the word abstract differently. in this case i see it as intangible like a concept, that carries with it the same impact as a boulder, gun or virus. these things have a more sudden or instant outcome where the intangible have a much further reaching meaning in our lives both daily and equivalent to one life time, many lifetimes or the shelf life of the entire human race. though one is no more real than the other and both can strike very deeply to the core of us. it is still up to the individual to determine acceptance of learning the meaning.

ideas supply people with purpose and meaning for extended periods of time where as meaning give those ideas purpose to the individual in the moment but if connected upon by more than one can supply a new strength and last many lifetimes if preserved for posterity; much as suffering allows meaning to be relevant only if we choose to accept that meaning and shape our destiny from that one moment in time and the next and the next.

i have to work with more crude ideas, words and thoughts because i'm not past my own trial yet and even though i didn't put it as eloquently as you did i believe we agree that meaning is one of the very foundations of free will. so are other ideas like love, purpose, the human condition (mortal coil) and choice among others.

what i find debatable is the reason why an omnipotent being would give the gift of experience only to deny free will and choice. though i try not to dwell on it as it seems counterproductive once the one or two gems are gleaned from it for other purposes.
 
Without free will we are just robots God wants us to choose Him. Every belief even my athiest friends require a measure of faith. The Jesus I have a relationship with loves everyone if they believe or not.
 
^ He's dead though.

God, demons, angels? These are all just parts of another dimension. Parts that have influence in our world but don't really manifest. Will is not driven by these forces if your will is strong enough.
 
No my friend He (Jesus) is not ?dead?. Jesus was witnessed by hundreds of men not to mention women and children after the crucifiction. Also, just to clarify, I don?t say what I do to be antagonistic or argumentative I honestly do it out of love. I believe that Jesus is the only way to eternal salvation for me to not share that with non believers would in my opinion be hateful. It would be much easier to stand by quietly and leave others to their misguided beliefs. The truth (at least for me) is I don?t want anyone to spend eterenty in torment. That?s my objective. Not to appear superior or in some regards silly. What true Christians want is to share Gods love. How can one not at the very least respect that premise? With that in mind...NOT dead, not at all. In the end everyone will know this as fact but it will be too late for most.
 
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