Shamanic practices in the west

[JGrimez]

You're right I've never tried DMT. I would have when I was younger given the opportunity but knowing what I know now I wouldn't. I wouldn't say I'm scared more cautious, just like I would be walking into the Amazon naked in the middle of the night. My point is if you approach the unknown in a naive way then there are things that can do you harm. As above, so below.
I know someone who has had "psychedelic" shamanic experiences without drugs. Author of The Secret History of the World. Some comments (discussing Graham Hancock's work):

Certain drugs may induce states of consciousness that permit us to "see" or experience certain aspects of reality that are veiled in normal consciousness -- as we are now. But these effects are temporary and short-lived.

The real work before us is to change ourselves in a permanent way, so that such experiences, if they are necessary and part of our development and evolution, occur in step with the evolution of our BEing and DOing. When and if they occur in such a case, they are part of our natural develoment. And if they don't, then they are not necessary.

If certain drugs initiate these experiences, then it suggests that we are programmed to have them. But if we are so programmed, then the best way to attain them is to unleash those genetic codes through the Work on ourselves, which will happen when we are ready.

I think Hancock is sincere and is a pretty diligent researcher as far as it goes. I agree with his perspective on many things. The problem is, he is NOT a Shaman or a Seer and you have to be one to be able to SEE - to have perspicacity regarding the matters of other worlds. Only Seers and Shamans know their own, and only they know who is on the path of light or darkness.

Now, I haven't really commented on the idea that shamanic visions may have been at the root of the emergence of modern man, but I have compared my non-drug induced shamanic experience to the drug-induced ones that Hancock describes in the book. I think that the attentive reader can see the difference. It seems that drug induced experiences do indeed open the door to other realms, but they are generally lower realms, where one would not wish to remain for any period of time.

It seems to me that this is the crucial point of differentiation. There is a higher path that leads to Reality and a lower path that leads to deeper enslavement - and both of those can entail 'visions'. To gain such by the use of drugs - natural or otherwise - is to circumvent the natural and higher path that empowers the spirit - and body - to truly walk between two worlds; to See; to Be.

I don't think this point can be made strongly enough.

In our current world defined by lies, it follows so logically that drug induced altered states are encouraged as enlightenment when they are infinitely limiting. That delineation between 'the wretched' and 'the Whole (Holy)' is so deliberately blurred by those who must keep us in our place (and their conscious or not conscious 3D agents) - that those who opt for the 'easy' way through - ingestion equals altered state - are caught; always and forever on the path to further, or continued, enslavement.

There are no shortcuts - for a reason. fwiw.

Now, if you read Ibn al-Arabi's "Unveiling," (see William Chittick's translation and commentary: The Sufi Path of Knowledge) you will find detailed descriptions of "states" and "stations" and "unveilings" that are clearly and unequivocally shamanic in nature, though most definitely NOT of a kind that exposes a person to the Service To Self control system as these drugs do when ingested before the nature of the individual has grown able to handle the current.

Much of what Hancock saw/experienced was the "sea of faces" that has been described by numerous psychic mediums. It's an unpleasant place where earthbound spirits wander - a cloud of lowered vibrations that surrounds our planetary reality.

Another large proportion of what he saw and experienced was the 4D STS realms and I have heard many descriptions of this reality from claimed abductees under hypnosis. Of course, he does get into the abduction phenomenon further on in the book.

What is also extraordinary about it for me is that I experienced what he describes BEFORE I read the al-Arabi so that it came as a confirmation rather than as a pre-existing suggestion. I've been through all the levels of inrushes and, thank DCM that I achieved the level where they can come and do not disturb my functioning in any way.

In the beginning, there were some pretty wild rides accompanied by bi-location (I was witnessed as present by independent third parties when I was, in fact, thousands of miles away), everything appearing as shimming strands of living light, waves of heat, cold, seeing and hearing the gatherings of beings in other dimensions/densities (that got VERY irritating after awhile), and so on. Regarding the latter, I could close my eyes for a moment and immediately be aware of this other world OR, conversely, I could have my eyes closed and see through closed lids. Getting up and out of my body and going to other rooms also became irritating because I would think I was actually doing something, but my body was still inert and I would sort of get impatient that I had to go back and get it. Then, there were "beings" that would come along and try to trick me. It really was like a haunted forest where all kinds of tricks and traps were set and you have to be on your toes every second. That isn't possible under the influence of drugs that induce the state.

This sort of thing went on at an unbelievable level of intensity for over a year until I mastered every aspect of it. So, when people come to me talking about their "shamanic initiations" via drugs, and describe to me some of the awful stuff that goes on in those states (and yeah, a lot of it is described in glowing terms, but unless you've been through it with the body's natural chemicals, you can't tell the subtle differences), I just get the willies that anybody is promoting this stuff and that anybody is believing it. It's scary as hell the number of people that are doing it, too.

 

[Yourbaker]

Having read through the random quotes I see you have found a bunch of people fearful of the unknown and a few that would go so far as to brag secret knowledge.

My young niece when told that the holes in donuts were poison learned to nibble very carefully around them for years.

Until my own parent had cancer I believed marijuana was a drug not medicine.

Holding onto belief that prevents you from living a happy healthy life is identical to ptsd in the results it will have on you. But don't take my word for it, learn truth from experience and sound reason, not frightful conjecture.

 

[JGrimez]

and a few that would go so far as to brag secret knowledge.

It's not secret, anyone can do it (if they do the Work and it's part of one's development). Point is it can be done in a protected way without the use of drugs.

Having read through the random quotes I see you have found a bunch of people fearful of the unknown

So go walk through the jungle naked at night. If you decide not to it just means that you are fearful of the unknown.

 

[Yourbaker]

Psychedelics are a drug you use that has an effect on your brain. I hope we can both agree on that.

My brain might be a jungle for you but it is my brain and it contains only what I put there. If I fill my head with in-substantial fears I will release those fears while I'm in a psychedelic experience, depending on what I've held as my fearful belief, I will reap the reward of facing that fear. I understand that nothing in my brain can physically hurt me beyond myself and my own choice.

Should I spend all day worried about the bad things that might happen based on words someone else told me because they had fears? Fear grips people into inaction. I fear not acting far more then I fear imaginary ideas.

I agree a none shaman or a "seeker" should seek out knowledge prior to the use of psychedelics. If you've never taken any it may be a good idea to learn first. But from the perspective of a shaman, having spent a lifetime in spiritual studies that uses psychedelic drugs it's the tool of their trade. It's like the Amish people build houses without power tools, they feel those tools are evil too.

If you harbour fear of something it might not be for you, at least not until you've learned to over come your fears. Understand fearlessness is not foolishness, you keep using the naked in the jungle analogy. I am not a shaman but my jungle is a very well maintained forest filled with a lot of natural beauty. How you hold your brain (like how you hold your face) is really a choice and perhaps the only real free choice you have. Enjoy this life and enjoy the world you are in. Don't fear anything simply because another person does or just because you read it somewhere. Use the amazing brain you have and think things through. If you need psychedelics to allow some new ideas and to help get rid of some old ones do it.

On a personal note I am a deep back country hiker and I have walked everywhere in the dark, without a light often and never any weapon beyond a bear bell and a utility knife. When you are suddenly 20 meters from a grizzly fear is the least needed sensation and it isn't what comes. First there is an adrenaline rush and my actions instantly go into seeking escape routes and predicting the next few moments as accurately as possible so I don't make mistakes.

Fear is a feeling of overwhelming lack of understanding. When you don't know what to do and you decide on nothing, you get fear.

So I'll say again if you fear something you shouldn't do it until you understand yourself better and can overcome your fear, you also shouldn't contribute to creating fear in other's. Encouraging people to become better educated is always good but using fear as a motivator isn't of any use.

 

[JGrimez]

Psychedelics are a drug you use that has an effect on your brain. I hope we can both agree on that.

Sure

My brain might be a jungle for you but it is my brain and it contains only what I put there.

Actually the jungle I was referring to is the unseen reality that your consciousness/ethereal body travels to when under the influence. Maybe you just believe that psychedelics are a way to explore your own mind and that's cool. Others believe that our minds are linked to our external reality the same as our physical bodies. In this physical reality, outside things/forces/people can directly harm your body. Some believe that the same is true with the psyche + the unseen realities.

I understand that nothing in my brain can physically hurt me beyond myself and my own choice.

Sort of. These trips can send your brain insane or psychotic and can cause you to do damage to yourself and others. Also brain cell damage occurs from ingesting substances. I'm not trying to scare you just stating facts

Should I spend all day worried about the bad things that might happen based on words someone else told me because they had fears? Fear grips people into inaction. I fear not acting far more then I fear imaginary ideas.

I agree.
If I want to climb a mountain I'm going to talk to someone who's already done it. He's gonna warn me of bad things that might happen. I can choose not to do it or I can still choose to climb it, despite the dangers. But informing yourself of the dangers isn't necessarily creating fear. If you're scared of what I'm saying then there might be some truth to it. I don't see how my words can create danger to someone else who might want to experiment with psychedelics. If my words can, then is it my opinions that are the danger or the drugs and subsequent experience/interactions?

So I'll say again if you fear something you shouldn't do it until you understand yourself better and can overcome your fear, you also shouldn't contribute to creating fear in other's. Encouraging people to become better educated is always good but using fear as a motivator isn't of any use.

I'm just speaking what I feel is the truth, whether someone chooses to interpret that as fear is up to them, like you said.
The main point I was trying to make is that real shamans don't use drugs. If you could do something without the use of a mind-altering substance then what would be the reason to depend on it? Just seems like a shortcut to me. It's the same as me saying that a real athlete doesn't use drugs.

If one wants to experiment with psychedelics I am all for them making their own decisions and going their own path, hopefully after doing some research. The issue I have is with people thinking that drugs are directly linked to shamanism, and that they must ingest powerful (and potentially damaging) psychedelics in order to experience a shamanic initiation - which imo can result in quite the opposite effect. People generally would prefer not to work and would rather take the easy path.

 

[Yourbaker]

This is a much better post. Thanks for responding, I know I'm tough on people when they make a claim without some effort to base it on evidence and reality.

I have worked with 1 shaman that didn't use drugs on at least the occasion we were together. He used a physical method of heating and cooling his body to shock it into an altered state. He used a sauna until almost passing out and jumping in the snow. This doesn't work for me at all. For me it took a 40 kilo pack and 13 hours climbing a mountain side. I've met other people who run til that runners high begins etc. There are a lot of old school methods of getting into an altered state.

I'd rather use psychedelics.

Again I'm not a shaman so I can't speak for the whole title saying they do or do not use psychedics. I do know some do and I've heard some don't and I know one that does both.

Regarding your claim of cell damage from psychedelics I'd like a link to that idea. I would point out too that every method I've ever seen lead to an altered state other than psychedelics has certainly far more potential for physical damage. Running, mountain climbing, over exhausting the physical body. These can only be good in small doses.

Because there are a wide variety of drugs being classed in psychedelics I can't speak for all of them because I haven't researched them all extensively enough. I can say I can not find any link to cell damage, to me this appears as inaccurate.

What is happening when a person is on a psychedelic isn't a huge mystery either. I would suggest looking some things up and reading a bit if you have fears of bad things happening so you can put those fears to rest. When I say put them to rest it is something you need to do if you have fear.

I don't have fear. Not simply of psychedelics I really don't have fear of anything. This of course would include the place you've decided I go when I use psychedics you referred to an ethereal body of mine that moves to someplace else while on psychedelics. I know exactly what you are referring to and it posses zero fear and zero issue. It's simply a place in my/your mind when you restrict your senses and look for the much quieter senses that don't shout for your attention. Those moments when you feel you've contacted an entity is just you. We have a lot more senses then 5 but they are not as loud as the big five. Closing down the big 5 allows us to hear from the quieter ones. Religions pile a big wall of fear exactly here. That was my first clue about how true this ethereal danger was.

There is a lot more to reality then we register in our regular daily events, I don't see any of it as supernatural. I see natural as being way cooler then I've been taught and I've pursued it. I don't think psychedelics are for everyone simply because they work for me, neither should I believe they are for no one. Because I've used them extensively with success I will opposes anyone who hasn't had experience but wishes to colour another person's experience by warning them of unsubstantiated fears. They may not have had your fears before but now they may have inherited them from you.

If I spend all day as a Canadian spouting off my fears of America to others I will taint a few opinions against America. It's the same with drugs. Don't build fear for people who don't have it already and it will be one less fear for them to overcome.

For what it is worth fear is very much something you can overcome with education.

Here's a starting point for psychedelics and your brain.

https://www.wired.com/2014/10/magic-mushroom-brain/

 

[JGrimez]

I'd rather use psychedelics.

It's more about work on the mind and soul as opposed to physical exertion.
There also seems to be many paths.

Regarding your claim of cell damage from psychedelics I'd like a link to that idea

I may be wrong it was an assumption that all drugs change brain chemistry in a way that is 'unnatural' depending on your definition.

What is happening when a person is on a psychedelic isn't a huge mystery either. I would suggest looking some things up and reading a bit if you have fears of bad things happening so you can put those fears to rest. When I say put them to rest it is something you need to do if you have fear.

I have to disagree with this. We do not even understand consciousness. Yet without it seemingly nothing exists. So how do you really think you've worked out what happens under the influence? You're not sure if it's just in your head or if you do actually experience 'unseen' realities that are as real as what we perceive in normal states.

Religions pile a big wall of fear exactly here. That was my first clue about how true this ethereal danger was.

Or maybe religions are archaic metaphors with a small bit of truth about what we're still striving to know.

There is a lot more to reality then we register in our regular daily events, I don't see any of it as supernatural. I see natural as being way cooler then I've been taught and I've pursued it. I don't think psychedelics are for everyone simply because they work for me, neither should I believe they are for no one. Because I've used them extensively with success I will opposes anyone who hasn't had experience but wishes to colour another person's experience by warning them of unsubstantiated fears. They may not have had your fears before but now they may have inherited them from you.

So you seem to have worked out the mechanism for experiencing a positive or negative psychedelic experience? It's basically don't be scared and hope for the best. But you're saying that my fears can attach to other people through a web forum and then those attached fears cause that person to trip badly, is that what happens? If psychedelics send a considerable number of people insane is it an unsubstantiated fear? Can you explain the mechanism behind someone tripping and then going completely mental or just having their personality radically shift in a negative way (that the individual may be convinced is positive)?

I would actually say - acquiring as much knowledge as possible will maximize the ability to protect oneself., at all times. That includes examination of the 'negative.'

?You never know how much you really believe anything until its truth of falsehood becomes a matter of life and death to you. It is easy to say you believe a rope to be strong and sound as long as you are merely using it to cord a box. But suppose you had to hang by that rope over a precipice. Wouldn't you then first discover how much you really trusted it??

 

[Yourbaker]

My first opportunity to use psychedelics was at age 12. I have never had a bad experience other than my first mushroom trip at 21. It wasn't bad just I ate too much and had to lay still for a while til it calmed down. Nothing fearful happened I just didn't have a good grasp of reality and was concerned I might walk into traffic as my vision was not accurate.

Psychedelics help reduce regular sensory inputs by allowing new neural connections to be formed. Some of these connections will allow more of the unconscious and subconscious parts of you to the surface. You are much smarter then your conscious you is aware.

Writting here in a drug forum about spirituality, the audience is mostly drug users/ex users that all have reasons for not using or using. Some people here are seeking insight and some are making statements that they feel are truth to them and we are all relating to each other through text. If you describe a fear you have of accidentally choking to death on marbles because of a childhood event and you describe it in detail you are creating a vehicle for the reader to imagine your event and incorporate your learned fear from your experience without having to experience it themselves.

We want to be certain we are accurate if we are filling people's heads with fears of marbles so we want to remember it happened in childhood and by this one event we shouldn't colour all marbles as homicidal. It doesn't change your opinion at all or lessen your experience for you. Feeding fear however may taint another person's experience or lack of one because fear put them off. Does not matter if you are on a forum about drugs speaking from the perspective of someone's mom. You speak only of information you have been told so it's hearsay. I speak from experience and to date several thousand psychedelic experiences.

The fear you experience is in your mind and education will make it evaporate.