So I got on Subutex back in early December worked my way down to .5 and made the jump. The first week was really anxious and I did some Zannies to ease the discomfort. I made it three more weeks and was feeling better but still not right. Was going to Therapy and some meetings maybe twice a week. So here is where things get messed up. I relapsed on some Heroin my Doc. It was 8 gms in a week. I never got high and maybe this is because I snorted it instead of IV. It was great gear according to my old dealer and some others I know and I just felt guilty but I just wanted to get high to stop all that was going on. This was last weekend and stopped on Monday a week ago. Now I am in worse shape than I was before the relapse. The wds were not all that horrible but just nagging uncomfortable anxiety. I have been taking supplements this whole time since I dropped the sub. There was plenty of time for the subs to be out of my system and I never felt a thing a total waste of all my time clean for nothing. Now I?m in worse shape than I was and the cravings are full blast. I never felt high once during that week. Had my brain reset? Why am I craving so bad if I didn?t feel a thing? It?s been a week and I haven?t used anything but some zaniest. Cannibas has been my friend for quite some time but I feel awful. Like I?m in a constant battle in my head. You didn?t get high for a reason, all that time and you didn?t learn so your body is screaming at you for slipping. Why did I not feel high thru 8 gms? Why is my body spanking me for this? Is it possible to reset the brain in such a manor? If anyone has any answers please respond. If you have any thought of why the cravings are worse now share. It was a screw up that I am paying double for. I didn?t take any subs afterward and have stayed clean this week with much discomfort. I?m rambling as sleep has been a problem again. Am I crazy or is that just the way it goes for some people. Staying sober right now but may get back on subs if the cravings don?t subside as I don?t want to waste all that I have worked for.
What the hell have I done to myself?
- Thread starter Pucman
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Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
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8g or heroin in a week is quite a lot, even for someone with a bit of buprenorphine tolerance (though who knows in this case).
Sounds like you are dealing with a pretty classic case of relapse. Relapse in the sense of the experience activating craving that were either dormant/unconscious or had gone into remission.
The question is where to go from here. Have you ever considered exploring more treatment? An IOP program might be helpful, although it of course depends.
In terms of cravings, see if you can’t find some gabapentin. That tends to work better for cravings than alprazolam does IME.
At the very least, I highly recommend finding someone professional to work with. Therapist, doctor, psychiatrist, anything you can find in terms of support.
The cravings probably wouldn’t have been so extreme if you had been able to follow your little binge with some buprenorphine to even out the transition, but speculating is only so useful at the moment.
Sounds like you are dealing with a pretty classic case of relapse. Relapse in the sense of the experience activating craving that were either dormant/unconscious or had gone into remission.
The question is where to go from here. Have you ever considered exploring more treatment? An IOP program might be helpful, although it of course depends.
In terms of cravings, see if you can’t find some gabapentin. That tends to work better for cravings than alprazolam does IME.
At the very least, I highly recommend finding someone professional to work with. Therapist, doctor, psychiatrist, anything you can find in terms of support.
The cravings probably wouldn’t have been so extreme if you had been able to follow your little binge with some buprenorphine to even out the transition, but speculating is only so useful at the moment.
simco
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I've been learning about this stuff first-hand myself recently (15 months clean followed by several smallish relapses that were deeply unsatisfying). I've noticed in myself a few of the things you mentioned such as not enjoying the drugs anymore and being tossed around by cravings since that initial lapse. Sorry all that is going on for you.
I agree with TPD that finding someone to help you in this part of your recovery is probably a wise choice. These kinds of challenges are, well, challenging. But they also provide us with chances to deepen our recovery. In my own case I've realized that while those 15 months clean were great, I was basically white-knuckling it, and not for the greatest reasons. Now I have to find a way to treat the problem more deeply. It's not a fun prospect, I know. But at this point your body and mind are more or less insisting that you reinvent your recovery.
I agree with TPD that finding someone to help you in this part of your recovery is probably a wise choice. These kinds of challenges are, well, challenging. But they also provide us with chances to deepen our recovery. In my own case I've realized that while those 15 months clean were great, I was basically white-knuckling it, and not for the greatest reasons. Now I have to find a way to treat the problem more deeply. It's not a fun prospect, I know. But at this point your body and mind are more or less insisting that you reinvent your recovery.
Actually I am in therapy and I’m not feeling anything but cravings. I just was curious is it possible to still have the sub in my system after a month blocking the drugs? And why my relapse was well uneventful. I’m 8 days post relapse and just having cravings but telling myself my body has quit for good and that was just the final say so. It was a weakness that I have addressed in meetings and plan on talking with my therapist about. Since I was an Iv user snorting probably just didn’t effect me or the subs are still in systemblocking. I haven’t gone back on the subs yet but tomorrow I am going to address this with my therapist. Just a low dose for a time until I get my coping skills back. I have been exercising daily and taking supplements eating extremely healthy trying to get back all the lost time I wasted. As of now there is no way I want to ever go back. Yes relapse is part of the experience. But I actually feel like I got more determination afterwards. I have been seeing a addiction specialist since December and the only appointment I missed was during the relapse. I’m sober now and I’m going to continue this path. Sleep has been extremely difficult but I am busy and keep rolling with it. BTW when I stopped and got on subs I was doing 2 gms a day. Thanks for the support guys TPD you were there when I decided to get sober and I appreciate the response again. Simco you are always a great supporter. Therapist tomorrow.
I have been taking a Tablespoon of diatomaceous Earth daily which flushes out toxins since getting off the subs. It really helped me sweat out a lot of junk that had been in my system , I would even say that it would be a great addition after being off the subs for anyone it does taste nasty.
I have been taking a Tablespoon of diatomaceous Earth daily which flushes out toxins since getting off the subs. It really helped me sweat out a lot of junk that had been in my system , I would even say that it would be a great addition after being off the subs for anyone it does taste nasty.
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Ds
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most opiates will make you feel like shit for 30 days or more, when I work with an individual coming off of suboxone I monitor them close because there are cases where suboxone can stay in your system x3 longer then any other opiate, and that's after being on subs for a long time. yeah you are going to feel like shit for a few weeks regardless and it's really a good thing that you are in therapy.
You say you go to meetings, how is the relationship with you and your sponsor? seems like you know step 1 pretty well, now on for the other steps. Listen to what some of the people say in the meetings, of losing everything in their life, I try to look at it like 'do I really want to lose all of the shit that I worked so hard to get'?
I think everyone early in recovery have problems sleeping and get sick, I call it the 'off the street bug', just be carful how you treat that, I know personally that taking any medicine even if its cough and cold shit can be dangerous for me because I used to get fucked up on the shit, so I run it by some close friends of mine in recovery, and I have a box of Dayquil I left with a close friend because if I ever need something like that I will ask him.
Nows the time to get sober dude!
You say you go to meetings, how is the relationship with you and your sponsor? seems like you know step 1 pretty well, now on for the other steps. Listen to what some of the people say in the meetings, of losing everything in their life, I try to look at it like 'do I really want to lose all of the shit that I worked so hard to get'?
I think everyone early in recovery have problems sleeping and get sick, I call it the 'off the street bug', just be carful how you treat that, I know personally that taking any medicine even if its cough and cold shit can be dangerous for me because I used to get fucked up on the shit, so I run it by some close friends of mine in recovery, and I have a box of Dayquil I left with a close friend because if I ever need something like that I will ask him.
Nows the time to get sober dude!
simco
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I don't want to derail your thread, Pucman, and I don't want to pry...so feel free to ignore these questions. But I'm interested in the work you're doing with you're addiction therapist.
First, (again only if you're comfortable answering): do you live in the US?
Second, would you mind describing a bit about how your and the therapist work together? That is, what kind of services (talk therapy, medication management, suboxone scripts) does he offer?
I'm asking because I have been doing a lot of research on treatment options recently. I feel like what you've described might be an interesting option, but one that I've had trouble finding evidence of in my own neck of the woods.
First, (again only if you're comfortable answering): do you live in the US?
Second, would you mind describing a bit about how your and the therapist work together? That is, what kind of services (talk therapy, medication management, suboxone scripts) does he offer?
I'm asking because I have been doing a lot of research on treatment options recently. I feel like what you've described might be an interesting option, but one that I've had trouble finding evidence of in my own neck of the woods.
Simco no worries, yes I live in the States. My therapist is CBT and DBT certified and it is mostly talk therapy while I’m there, coping skills and the like, talked about my past and how I got here. But there is homework that she likes me to do as well, mainly diary stuff. How I relate to different things and situations. What I want to change and reachable goals to get there. When I stop certain feelings that seem to trigger my use in the past. Then we break that down and dissect those feelings I journaled. And she is licensed to give me the subutex as well. I have seen therapists in the past as I was in a fatal accident that took my father and sister but I survived but was bad off for a long while. Hospital for over a month. I had severe head trauma and was in a coma for three weeks. The core reason for the PTSD I suffered which led me into alcoholism at an early age. It had been a while since I saw someone for help and while doing my search an ex of mine suggested a woman in her group that she thought I would fit with. I really got lucky. I knew what cognitive behavior therapy was but didn’t know much about Dialetical behavior was. Just more coping skills and how to change patterns.
So today I got back on subs and plan to work on myself before jumping off as I relapsed all the same. I felt pressure during meetings that I wasn’t clean even if it was a maintenance and didn’t want to be on another drug and felt that I had just done it for a month so I was sure I could do it without. And I made it until I had some real stress come into my life. I am the oldest child and have two other half sisters and have always been the Man of the house. Always looking out for them as I was devostated loosing one. Anyways I look forward to this as it is going to be a new start. I have always had substance abuse problems. Heroin came late into my life, it was always alcohol and other drugs. Hopefully I can get some sleep tonight, btw I was scripted 8mg but I’m going to try to keep it lower than that, she told me just to feel it out. I think 4 should be enough but I had a very high tolerance so we will see one day at a time. And I go once a week to therapy.
So today I got back on subs and plan to work on myself before jumping off as I relapsed all the same. I felt pressure during meetings that I wasn’t clean even if it was a maintenance and didn’t want to be on another drug and felt that I had just done it for a month so I was sure I could do it without. And I made it until I had some real stress come into my life. I am the oldest child and have two other half sisters and have always been the Man of the house. Always looking out for them as I was devostated loosing one. Anyways I look forward to this as it is going to be a new start. I have always had substance abuse problems. Heroin came late into my life, it was always alcohol and other drugs. Hopefully I can get some sleep tonight, btw I was scripted 8mg but I’m going to try to keep it lower than that, she told me just to feel it out. I think 4 should be enough but I had a very high tolerance so we will see one day at a time. And I go once a week to therapy.
So today I felt light headed and brain farts. I do not like the way that the subtex feels in my system. I took 4 mg yesterday and today broke it into 2mg early and 2 mg after dinner. I feel sketchy in every way. Anxious, loss of appetite and generally just crappy. I ran three and a half miles and that was hard for me while it has been easier off the meds. I know it will take getting used to but I was feeling pretty good prior to yesterday. It’s a harder drug than I thought. Last time was coming into wds well I actually waited 36hrs before starting the subtex so I was already in withdrawl from the Heroin. I called my therapist and she was upset that I was resistant about the medicine. She told me that after the weekend if I wasn’t feeling better to call her and discuss either taking more or cutting it down. She really wanted me to take the 8mg she had scripted and said I need to give it a chance before being so resistant. I don’t know but I would rather not be on anything but I do want to succeed this time. Does anyone have any thought on this? My relapse was almost two weeks ago. Has anyone just started a maintenance program post withdrawl? How long did you stay on the maintenance program? The weekend is upon us and I have a very busy one. Man I feel off, got some sleep last night but not feeling tired at all. Does sub make you feel awful or is it just me. I know those coming off their doc it is a savior but just throwing it into the mix after you had clean time. Just in a fog looking for some answers. D’s Thanks for the info, I do not have a sponsor and have been attending different meetings at different places. I get a little frustrated with the war stories and at some of the people who were addicted to 50mg of hydrocodone for three months. I know take what you need and leave the rest. Man I’m bitchy today.
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
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Great work getting back into treatment!
Although there are some benefits to less buprenorphine than more, during the stabilization period following induction less is not necessarily more. It isn't unusual for people to need 8-16mg the first week or two. For those with more average habits 8mg should be plenty, but there isn't anything wrong with taking more if you need it.
The general rule with buprenorphine is to take as much as you need. There is no magic number that works for everyone. A good base of thumb for a dose that will help you stabilize is the dose you were stable on initially when you used it prior. Another good way of doing it is taking 4mg then 2mg every two hours until you feel more or less normal (during the first week or two on buprenorphine some discomfort is expected, but you shouldn't feel totally sick or anything if you're taking enough).
I started buprenorphine back in the day after I had already detoxed myself. So I got on it about nine days abstinent. I felt that actually worked better than it had previously where I went directly from heroin to buprenorphine.
I stayed on buprenorphine treatment for about 18 months. The first three months were the best, because it was part of an IOP that I attended multiple days each week. After the first three months we were referred to a doctor and therapist combo. Buprenorphine started losing its effectiveness for me at some point around the 3-6 month point.
At 18 months it wasn't working very well at all, and I decided I'd rather just try to go without. Getting off was a lot easier than I thought it would be, although it wasn't a walk in the park. Eventually I got on methadone after continuing to struggle, and I found that a lot more effective in terms of cravings and clinic support.
You might want to consider looking into other meds to help you with this too. Gabapentin can be a very useful mood stabilize and anxiety medication. Likewise antidepressants can help some people (bupropion was really helpful when I was on methadone). A non-habit forming sleep med was also super helpful. Anything you can try that won't cause you more problems (I'd try and avoid benzos if you can, for instance) is worth trying.
Try not to get ahead of yourself with your recovery or treatment right now. Just focus on doing what you need to do to stabilize on buprenorphine and in therapy. Taking care of yourself in the present now, being kind and gentle with yourself as you continue exploring your recovery, will make the long term goals much more achievable.
Things tend to work out well in ways we can't begin to imagine when we focus on trying to live more in the present
Thanks TPD I will discuss other meds with my therapist on Wednesday. It just makes me feel dirty, painful and addicted but Im Sure this is my brain playing tricks on me. Will keep posting now that I have the drive to really get back to something I’m proud of, don't get me wrong I’m super proud of the steps I’m taking and I will do whatever I can for my recovery. I do love my therapist as she is the one who can put me in my place like no other. Maybe someday I will find someone like her who doesn’t let me glide, already in relationship and my therapist is like 55. More motherly
Well it’s been a crazy last few weeks, still sober from opiates but had a short bout with alcohol until I got the edibles I had been waiting and using all my abilities to get on the program as Lymes in my state is a valid disease used to get on CBD oil, lots of paperwork and the fact I was on subtext put a red flag up immediately. Let’s talk later about that, exercise has been my saving grace thru all this. Been off subs for fifteen days now and haven’t done any dope since January 15th. I ride my exercise bike some days for hours total separated throughout the day. Run my business out of my house. I’m in great shape and my mom said I looked better than I had in years. It was a nice talk we had but she was still worried that Since I am half assimg my program but said she saw life back in my eyes. I haven’t been keeping up with this recovery journal as I’m so busy and dead tired by the end of the day. I’m still attending meetings and seeing my therapist who has been a god send. I do have PAWS pretty bad but I just get on the bike and go as hard as I can for twenty minutes or so. I did get on neurotoxin only using when needed. My emotions are all over the place and O started going out again and getting laid fairly often. That’s the best I feel and have material for any dry slumps. It is hard for me to not drink like a fish and I do realize this so I am home generally early before getting stuck in my original predicament. My therapist has been helping me with this and I am going to both NA and AA meetings but never enough. I feel pretty normal and I believe my exercise helps me the most. Therapist says I box trains going from one drug to another as long as I’m mot using my last DOC. Keeping up the good fight and know I’m very early in all this but I have lost my body fat into muscle and really feel good about that. I’m pooped and need to get into bed. Everyone’s recovery is going to be different but I feel the best medicine is getting your body back on track. I’m eating strictly vegetarian and continue with the supplements. My work is a mess but I. Doing the best I can. Have a girl who wants to get serious but I know that’s not best for my recovery right now. Sex is incredible after loosing desire for it for such a long time and even forcing myself without the option of orgasam for so long I am really enjoying it. Keep up the good work guys it is so worth it and you will feel like yourself before addiction came into play. Still a very long road ahead but everyday puts me closer to the time I need to get over myself and the cravings I still have. Dreams too. God they can be awful. Love and light to all those wanting to make a change and for those who help praise be to you, It really helped me knowing that it’s possible to make this change but you really have to want it.
This^^. It is so far removed from the tone of the title of this thread! Thank you for sharing this journey with us.