Tapering Help - Opiate WD - Desperate for advice

[determinedmom53]

Hi - this is my first post. Im a 53yo relatively healthy mom who is used to running at high speed - very very demanding job, 3 teenage kids and a hubby. I am a distance runner when I have energy (which is not the heck now thank you crappy meds) I have been reading posts here for over a year because like so many here I am a pain pt who was prescribed oxy 10-325 4X a day for the last 3 years. I took it as ordered but over the last 6 mo it wasn't really working so I started taking more in the morning to get me going and then I was running out at the end of the month in withdrawals. I should also mention that I have been on ambien 12.5 for over 5 years and while it doesn't work as well as it did years ago I still can't sleep without it. I have xanax for anxiety for the last 10 years that I hardly ever take and an old scrip for tramadol 50 that I have from a couple years ago. Now to my problem and reason for finally signing up: last week I decided enough was enough and did a short week long taper. 4 on Su - 2 on Mo - 2 on Tue - 1 on We and .5 on Thur then I jumped off on Friday. Of course I have felt like I have the flu all week. All the usual but the sweating and weakness is the worst. I took one tram50 on Thur and Fri and then on Sat 2 grams of Kratom which I tried for the first time because I read about it here but my question is this - am I just dragging this hell out by taking tramadol and kratom because they are still opi-acting? I feel like this will never end and I'm not even talking about my pain - forget that for now. My family does not know and they all think I have the flu. I have no one in my life that won't judge me for this. I've never abused drugs and other than not wanting to be in pain and enjoying the energy opis gave me I have never felt the urge to take them beyond my physical needs and can't wait to be rid of this hell. I don't want to think I have waster the last 3 days - I'm 72 hours this morning no opi. I have a huge meeting over the next 4 days and need to work 15+ hours each day but I can hardly drag myself out of a chair right now. I have a feeling I just made it worse by taking the tram and Kratom (which I think helped a bit but I dont want to drag this out any more). Am I over the hump and will it start getting easier now or am I not even really starting yet because of the tram and Kratom? I thought 72 hours in was the worst and it started getting better but I feel weak as a kitten. What do I do? I know if I just take 2 pills this will all be over but I'm so desperate to get out of this loop I don't want to. I'm hoping someone out there has had similar experience and can tell me their experience. I'm scared of PAWS since I have been on this so long. I wish my doc had never given me this crap. Maybye a weeks worth after the accident but that's it. I never thought of myself as someone with an addiction before now but clearly something is wrong since I'm even facing this situation.
Sorry for the novel - been waiting years to do this and it feels good to tell someone. Waiting patiently for a reply...

 

[determinedmom53]

Also I have to admit - as I write this all I can think about is how one pill will help me feel better. I can't spend any more time in bed. desperate, desperate.

 

[simco]

Welcome! Don't worry about the tramadol and kratom you took--they didn't set you back in any appreciable way. I'd be a bit careful with the tramadol as relying on it a lot during your WD could lead to problems of its own (I suppose this is true of kratom too, but I see this as a less likely risk). So please, don't beat yourself up about those. And if when your meeting comes around you really need a boost, you could try some more kratom. Basically with stopgaps like kratom and trams (as you're using them) the thing you want to avoid is habitual use. Judicious use of these, on the other hand, can make things much less awful without a lot of down side.

Over all it sounds like you're doing great. I will say that the taper you did was so fast that you basically went off cold-turkey...kinda beside the point now. But if you ever face this again, the key to tapering opioids is a long, gradual series of steps down.

So as I said, it sounds like you're handling this like a champ. One thing I'd urge you to think about is how you'll maintain your recovery after the WDs are done. Luckily, as you've described is, your habit didn't get enormous (not to diminish its impact on your life, but its usually easier to come off a smaller dose). Nevertheless, many of us find that the phyiscal withdrawals are really just a prelude to the challenge of rebuilding our priorities and rewards systems. This is where groups like AA/NA come in handy for *some* people. Other people don't like 12-step program's and that's fine. Perhaps you could try working with a psychotherapist? Something to give you support when it's early in the morning and you're just climbing out of your skill for a pill.

We're happy to brainstorm with you about this too.

Keep up the awesome work.

 

[determinedmom53]

simco - OMG thank you so much for responding. What a relief. I felt like I was minutes away from just caving and your note has inspired me to keep going. Nice to know I made it worse than I had to - that's always a cheery thought but oh well - it is what it is as they say. I will be at 72 hours in 2 hours. I hate the counting thing but it does feel like a milestone... but I feel so weak and tired. Not my usual self at all - I'm usually putting in miles by now and I can barely get in the shower. The Kratom didn't really seem to help but I only took 2 grams so maybe it wasn't enough. If I take just one pill tomorrow will it set me all the way back? I have half of my scrip left and have not refilled it but still feel wayyyyy too desperate to toss it even though I know I should. My pain is real and Advil is just not doing it. Now that I know about this dependence thing can I manage it? Am I actually an addict if I only take it when I need it and not every day? (ok - I know how that sounds but I'm serious) I have thought long and hard about meetings but I'm not sure that is for me. I am a do it yourselfer and besides, if anyone in my family found out they would seriously judge me for the rest of my life. I am tough and can do this. I gave birth to 2 giant kids with zero pain meds. Have always declined pain meds before this accident 3 years ago which was so bad. This is my first run around with this and I have no compulsion to take drugs of any kind I'm just sick of being in pain and taking this crap. I have taken it so long to mask the pain I'm not even sure how bad it is now. Also - I am pretty tired of being treated like a drug seeking criminal when I am only filling the scrip I was given by my much SMARTER DOCTOR! - Yea right. I feel pretty confident that the people here know more than the whole troop of docs I saw during my surgeries and recovery. They don't know nuthin! If they did - they would have had me tough it out with the pain and I would never be in this boat. I want my energy back - I want my life back - I want to be my laughing, joking, running, crazy person back. I am scared I have lost her forever and maybe I'm too old to ever fully recover.
Thanks again for replying - you are a life saver.
DM

 

[determinedmom53]

Also - sorry for posting again - I am still figuring this site out but what is my odds of having protracted PAWS after 3 years of taking it as prescribed (almost)? Is that a long time? At my age can I expect a year like everyone says? I'm healthy except for what I've mentioned. I'm not sure I can handle PAWS - I hate feeling so dead and weak.

 

[Jabberwocky]

PAWS tends to present around 90 days abstience from opioids. It isn’t so much a condition as a phenomenon. The best thing you can do about PAWS, assuming it is gonna be something that’s a thing for you (a lot of people don’t experience it), is to focus on taking care of the little things day by day.

Eat well, sleep well, get exercise, and do whatever you can to keep your stress levels low. It’s mostly about learning how to be kind and gentle with yourself, to not push yourself so hard. With kids and everything else you mentioned you have going on, it sounds like working on managing stress is going to be a major goal for you.

Look into an MBSR course. Do you have any kind of professional support? Finding a therapist and a psychiatrist who can support you is probably something you’d benefit from setting up.

And with the opioid stuff, you’re just in withdrawal (saying just is a little silly, because it probably feels like a lot more than that). Expect to feel like crap for about a week. That’s why meds can be so helpful, because they help you not feel like such crap detoxing, allowing you to take better care of yourself and bounce back faster.

If you can, try upping the kratom. Taking 5mg of oxycodone isn’t going to set you back to 0, but it may extend the amount of time it takes you to feel normal again. If you do take a dose of oxycodone, try not to beat yourself up too much. Just try again, pursue other options with support (find a doctor to get you comfort meds, for instance) and keep pushing forward. That’s also why it’s so important to learn to practice being kinder and gentler with yourself.

This is a marathon, not a sprint.

 

[determinedmom53]

Toothpastedog - thank you. (I love that name by the way) marathon I can understand but I have no patience and I have already felt like total crap for a 8 straight days. Not sure how much longer I can go - damn - I thought I was tough. What a load of bung. I dont want to restart this whole week with a dose of ox to get through a tough day but I'm not sure I can make it to tomorrow and perform. I didn't even think I was taking that much but I guess the every day thing did me in. What is MBSR? I can't go to a doc for support for reasons I won't explain but I'm determined to make this happen so if not now, eventually, I will get past this. God willing. (please please please be willing) The truth is I don't feel a whole lot better now than I did on Monday when I had a dose in me. What if I broke my brain for good and I never come back?? I realize that sounds like a 4 year old but I've read about people spending YEARS trying to get over this. WTH - I did what the doctor said and not much more, how can I be THIS broken? It feels like a punishment I dont deserve. I bought a bunch of different kinds of Kratom to try to get past this but I don't want to trade one problem with another. Besides, I tried it yesterday and except for about an hour of relief all I got for my trouble was nausea so I think I will skip that method. I do have some Dex but it's the same thing isn't it? More molecules blocking the brain receptors I am trying to heal. More time spent suffering. It feels like it will never end.
Sorry I'm such a whiner - just being honest here with my feelings and worries looking to the experts to tell me it will get better. In an hour. JK - (No but really - could you make that happen please?)

 

[simco]

Hey, feel free to whine...that's really part of the deal around here

Detoxing from opioids totally sucks. But honestly, the symptoms you're feeling ARE temporary. I know it feels like you're broken and you're not going to find yourself again, but you will. Honestly, for me one of the important skills I learned over many hears (and many detoxes) is to be very careful about 'listening' to my own thoughts during WD. In that situation, one's mind tends to get pretty dark and depressed (again, that's part of the process unfortunately). So I try to distract myself and stay as far outside my head as possible during WDs. Lot's of TV, music, reading, if I can handle it.

I certainly don't want to press kratom on you. But for what it's worth, I'd try ~6g if you do it again. And, assuming you have powdered kratom, I personally would make tea from (lots of recipes online)...I find that it's way less disgusting that way.

Last thing I wanted to mention, it sounds like you and I share some traits...I also used to be a very competitive marathon runner (trained with the US triathlon team). Also, I lead (or used to lead) a very upstanding 'normal' life where I hid my addiction from everyone and presented as very high-functioning. Eventually I had to make changes just for my own mental health. But I do know how exhausting it is to carry on an opioid habit in the face of life's daily stressors. You're going to get over this. Just keep doing what you're doing. Including asking questions, and, yes...whining

 

[determinedmom53]

Simco - you are a Godsend - blessings up and back to you and all you do for the people here and now me. I've read hundreds of your encouraging posts and that's how I know I am going to get there (eventually). I was too embarrassed to sign up and am SOOOO worried someone in my family will spot this on my computer but it's my only way to talk to someone. I actually feel like a huge weight has been lifted because I've told someone. This space IS my therapy, my support doc and my friend. I do have a terrible confession and since this site is all about being honest to get there here it goes... I just failed. - I made it 72 hours and 5 minutes and f-ing caved 30 minutes ago. I just chewed up 3 pills and I feel like a total failure, cheat, waste case, COWARD. But damn if I don't feel 1000% better already. OMG - I may actually go for a run. And yes, it's nice to know we have things in common. I run, surf, rock climb, skydive, and race. I have a gnarly race on March 24th and my goal was to get clean of this and be healthy so I can medal but I can see this is going to be a much longer haul than I thought. For the last week I could barely get in the shower and go to work. BUT... I'm not giving up. This is one blip. I'm going to try and skip the next 3 days and take a lower dose. Maybe skipping days will be easier for me than tapering. IN the mean time I'm going to eat less sugar and when I feel good - run the crud out of life and keep moving. I'm 5'6" and 105 pounds and generally speaking I am the cheerful bouncing cheerleader when I am in the room. I have a too low BP so I eat too much salt in addition to too much sugar (which frankly might be a worse poison than this stuff) and think of myself as a healthy person. Been a vegi for 30 years tho so there is that. I will whine when I need to but I'm going to try not to beat myself up for failing today. If anything I did learn that I can eventually get there and I will keep posting and blogging my experiences until I am free of this devil forever. I had such a good life before those are the thoughts that will keep me going. I AM going to get back to that and this will be a bad memory. Bring it on beast - I can beat you. (She says after caving like a total wimp). Ugh - day one -again.

 

[Melhell]

Determinedmom, setbacks are part of life. And what you are going through. Don't get too hung up on it. It sounds like you are doing great. If you are anything like me, now that you have decided to do this, you won't stop until you do and the time you spend not doing it - in whatever way it turns out works for you, but constantly moving forward [or at least more steps forward than backward!] - will be time that you will later look back on as wasted. It's going to be tough. But you can do it. Glad you're here.

 

[simco]

Lapses are almost *always* part of recovery. They're a bummer, but you're handling it just right...pick yourself up and move forward (whatever that means at that particular moment).

Not to pretend like I have some special insight, but I think it's fair to say that recovery is about progress, not perfection. You made some good progress here, really learning about what you're up against and what resources you have at your disposal. These are crucial.

To the extent that you can, it's good to interrogate lapses afterwards, to try to learn from them. But hell, taking some pills that you know are going to make the sick go away...who *wouldn't* do that?

 

[determinedmom53]

Thanks Mel - I've read all your posts and we do have a lot in common - especially the frame of mind going to get there part. Thanks for the support. Love having a place to tell the truth and not be judged. My brain is so full of question marks it's sometimes hard to see past but I keep reading and telling myself I can do this. It's just one more thing to accomplish - I've done harder things... I can't think of any at the moment. But yeah... I'm going with that. Thanks again for the support!

 

[determinedmom53]

Thanks - I'm soaking in every word again and again and am seriously determined to get past this. It's so hard to stop that mind buzzzzzzz. Round and round it goes. I have been ADHD all my life and that circle of doubt is the worst - did I break my brain - will I ever get better - can I really heal 100% - over and over. I always liked being so fast and able to do so much but damn it's stressful. Anyhooo - I'm grateful to be here and will keep posting my story whenever I have time. Can't wait to be in Mel's place where I can (not) count my days off and finally be free. I know it will happen - just not soon enough. But the advice to be kind to myself hit home in a big way. I need to stop beating myself up (so much) and just go one day, one hour, one minute at a time. If the people here can do it so can I. I know my story isn't as heavy as many here and lots of them have mega success. By the way - anyone here tried that ibogaine? Is that really the miracle cure it looks like? Maybe I should take a week off and head to the bahamas?

 

[simco]

I don't want to speak out of turn, but I believe TPD has experience with ibogaine. I've been curious to try it but geography gets in the way.

 

[oldhippytony]

I can't add much to what's already been said Dmom53. You have a team of cheerleaders here, all rooting for you to get through this.
I believe not everyone who has had a physical addiction is an addict, but every addict has been physically addicted (or would be, if the opportunity arose). I've heard it said that "if you have to ask yourself if you are an addict, you probably are." I believe that's true in many, but not all, cases.
Wife's calling, dinner is on the table. I'll check back here soon.

 

[determinedmom53]

Today has been a good start for me in spite of the lapse. I've never felt compelled to take anything before and I don't now. I took them on schedule as directed until they stopped working and then took more. Yeesh. Broken record on top of broken brain... Tomorrow is another day - I'm going out of town for a 4 day work trip and I'm not taking anything with me. If I feel like total crap by the time I get back I'll take another dose for one day and see what happens.... the one full dose I took today made me feel like the last week didn't happen. If I keep spreading out the doses leaving more and more days in between maybe that will be better for me than taking less all the time. Damage is done so I guess I just have to keep trying. What should my new goal be - clean by end of April? March? Will I be able to do that with the dose I was on and the time I took it for? Is that a cop out when what I really want is now? I was so excited not to have to go get my refill and get stared at by everyone like a criminal. I always feel like I have to explain myself, "hey terrible accident, metal all over my body keeping my parts together lots of residual pain...." Thanks for the responses everyone - I have a new secret group of friends who know more about what I'm going through than anyone and I feel the love. Right back at ya. Please please please God let this work.

 

[Jabberwocky]

What does being clean mean for you? What needs to change between now and when you feel like you’re clean?

What kind of pain issues were you prescribed opioids for? There might be other less/non habit forming treatments you can try to help with that, which should make transitioning off the opioids easier.

If getting clean is as simple as not taking opioids, the question is how to get to a place where you don’t need to take opioids to feel okay. And the answer is that it will take you learning to take care of your needs without using opioids.

Generally speaking, for someone who has learned to use opioids precisely because they are trying to take care of themselves, focusing on not using opioids as the end goal isn’t super helpful. What seems to work better IME is to focus on how to take care of one’s self apart from relying just or primarily on opioids.

There are lots of things you can start doing today to begin the process of learning how to practice the kind of skillful and holistic self care (holistic in the sense of meeting your physiological, emotional, psychological and spiritual needs, on individual and interpersonal levels). Like establishing a healthy sleep schedule, improving dietary healthy, cultivating a more balanced relationship with family and work, learning how to meditate, learning yoga or some kind of mindful movement, taking a dance class, going for a hike, walking the dog, telling you child you love them, whatever!

So so so many creative ways you can being training yourself to practice self care more skillfully. And stuff like yoga, meditation, hiking and not being so hard on yourself with work/family can actually be a lot of fun. I say follow your bliss and explore your options not just with drug use or recovery (that too) but in life more generally.

Where do you want to be in ten years? What can you do now, no to accomplish you long term goals (long term goals are never accomplished overnight), but simply to orient yourself in the direction of wholesomeness, connection, self compassion, skillfulness, or whatever else you place a high value on and FEELS right to you? What are the obstacles you face to achieving a healthier state of being, apart from just the opioid use?

It’s too easy to get overwhelmed by wanting so so so much to get to a better place in life. At the same time, that motivation to get healthier and more stable can be very useful. The trick is taking the wholesome element of desire in that, seperate the desire to change from the discernment that change is what you need, and using it as fuel to explore things that will improve your present moment, lived quality of life right now.

Try not to worry about getting clean. It’s enough to worry about wanting to get healthier in any sense of the word, in any forward moving degree. We worry enough about getting healthier to begin with. Anything you can do to support yourself in being kinder and gentler with yourself will really make a difference.

Try to keep you head up

And if anyone wants to talk iboga/ibogaine, start a thread here, in PD or pm me. Xorkoth is also someone to ask about it.

 

[determinedmom53]

Words of wisdom. I have been so stressed about breaking my brain that I can't think of anything else. I keep worrying I will never be the same. Never find joy again and never have myself back that I can hardly take a breath. I'm so worried about never finding my own energy again. I need to take it easy and just go slow. My body is permanently broken from various issues - mostly an accident that broke me and required years of surgeries to fix the result of which was chronic pain. I just don't want to have a broken brain anymore. I will find another way to deal with the pain - but being clean to me right now means my brain is healed and working again. No more feeling sick if I don't take a drug. No more waiting for a refill. No more no more no more. I thought I could just stop anytime and forget about it but my broken brain won't let me. Thank you for the wise words.

 

[determinedmom53]

Update - Day 1 - what is a good taper schedule for me at my prior use? I was taking 4 - 10/325 Oxy a day for 3 years. I'm thinking I should reduce to 3 a day for a week, 2 a day for a week and 1 a day for a week then jump? Is that too fast? Should I go to 2 a day for 3 weeks instead? What's the best way to do this so I don't feel like I have the flu for the next 6 months. And if anyone has any words of wisdom on when I will feel normal again (knowing my history above) I'd love some positive words. If it's possible for my brain to be fixed after I stop taking this junk I will be so relieved. I miss my energy the most. Hopefully my history isn't too bad and I'm not broken for life.

 

[Melhell]

I don't have any advice for the taper except what I've read on here --- slow and steady wins the race. Others on here can probably help more with that. Or if you could talk to your dr, even better. I hope it works well for you, whatever schedule you decide on. I wanted to comment because I've noticed you have questioned a few times if your brain will ever be the same again. It will. I struggled with a very similar question - how long will it take for my brain to be fixed??? I knew it wouldn't last forever - thanks to BL and some other stuff I read - but was terrified that it wold be a really, really long time. I am just under 2 months, and I feel SO much better. My brain is not 100%, but it's getting there. I know it's different for everyone, but it does get better. That's really important to know/remember as you move through this. What your going through won't last forever. You will look back on this with a shudder/admiration of yourself/gratitude that you did it someday.