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Whats special about California rocket fuel antidepressant mix?

Why not just trazadone then? Or lots of other atypical antipsychotics.



Welcome to Bluelight.

No, haven't read his book. Like has been mentioned, there's nothing to combining these drugs that is stimulating or motivating or activating. Mirtazapine is a bit sedating. That wouldn't change just because venlafaxine has NRI activity at very large doses--mirtazapine still blocks those adrenergic receptors and hammers your histamine receptors.

I saw just now a thread on this combo from 2010. Which even if that was a just-released edition, means a decade of clinical studies since then. I'd hope he'd revisit the subject, to say, "yeah, no one got into orbit; or, switching to Adderall gave them the energy and mild happiness they'd wanted all along; or, Tesla refused to sponsor; or, I sold my shares before the metastudy results was released, I'm satisfied."

Thanks!

I really don't want to get into any real detail because it has been a few years since I dug into the topic, and you get into more subtle issues than serotonin/norepinephrine/dopamine. For instance, this combo will boost serotonin release and block its reuptake, which would normally make one highly concerned about serotonin syndrome. That's a very real concern when combining MAO-I or tricyclics with SSRIs. Less of a concern here when you dig deeper into how it works.

Stahl addresses lots of first-level medications and also combinations. Pretty sure he recommends some combos containing modafinil when an activating agent is needed and does so before recommending this combination.

The activating aspects here will mostly be due to effects on norepinephrine and dopamine, though it also affects serotonin. I'd have to check, but I think both are considered SNRIs. The immediate thought is to ask why this combo of two SNRIs would be better than any other combo of two other SNRIs. It has to do with how they work at a deeper level, which is also why there is a lower concern about serotonin syndrome. Again, I would recommend OP and his doctor go pick up Stahl's book and get a better understanding.

As for the age of the book, well, things don't get updated as often as we'd like. You can go do a search, such as on PubMed, for researcher on the combination. You'll get some results. Keep in mind that it's often reserved as a back-up when front-line or standard treatments don't work.

Finally, as I said before, I still don't understand why this would be good for someone taking benzos to counteract anxiety. If anything, I'd be concerned about the activating aspects making the anxiety even worse.
 
OP said he's doing a long taper off the benzos, longer than he'd like. His doctor may be going especially slow to not exacerbate more pressing emotional issues. I don't know his doses, but FDA approved benzos for panic disorders can be really high.

I buried my point about the age of the thread in my snark: he has a suite of books, and like every textbook publisher, they come in editions. The one for sale on his website (of course) for Essential is 4th ed., from 2013. But then, you'd want to cross-ref. with his Prescriber's and his Illustrated and his Antidepressants and his Masterclass. As well as the online database, which is good to know about, since it explains why one poster mentioned HT-3 antagonism (that's at least better than HT-3 agonism, which would make it "California Motion Sickness").

Terms like "activating agent" make we uneasy. Activate what? The person somehow? Perhaps because the person was prescribed strong anti-histamines and adrenergic antagonists and have been de-activated by the very fuel intended for their rocket.

There's nothing wrong with a clinician deciding to sell popular textbooks, but this doesn't sound like confusion from simplification for general audiences. It sounds like he's selling more hand-waving woo to them.
 
Mirtazepine, ugh

thiught tgus would be interesting rocket fuel damnit
 
I haven't detected any irony or oozing sarcasm in "California Rocket Fuel" so far, lorne. You're so cynical.
 
And illiterate, based upon typos

Yet, literary sub-IQ(coined it) was immeasurable -actual IQ was ???(you have to guess, though it's 3 SD'abive something, and at least it was only a SD from something else-odd feeling drug use+health has knocked 10 or 15 points out)

Mirtazepine and (insert whatcha AD no .4) isn't even interesting, and doubt it's effective, unless you want to knock yourself out a couple times a week, or just need a sedative/hypnotic anti-histamine with moderate anti-psychotic effects

Kind of like Promethazine, except, oddly more effective as even an anti-histamine (Promethazine was once used as an anti-psychotic, random lurkers)

And Basketball team(NBA) is last in the eastern conference-oddly enough Oakland/San Francisco is a half game behind leading Rockets, representing half of Texas (and apparently, the AFC South) Take that Scro-JK, Golden State will make it to the proverbial final four-with the Raptors!?! (Random, eccentricity people, and not a prince to kiss me
 
OP said he's doing a long taper off the benzos, longer than he'd like. His doctor may be going especially slow to not exacerbate more pressing emotional issues. I don't know his doses, but FDA approved benzos for panic disorders can be really high.

I buried my point about the age of the thread in my snark: he has a suite of books, and like every textbook publisher, they come in editions. The one for sale on his website (of course) for Essential is 4th ed., from 2013. But then, you'd want to cross-ref. with his Prescriber's and his Illustrated and his Antidepressants and his Masterclass. As well as the online database, which is good to know about, since it explains why one poster mentioned HT-3 antagonism (that's at least better than HT-3 agonism, which would make it "California Motion Sickness").

Terms like "activating agent" make we uneasy. Activate what? The person somehow? Perhaps because the person was prescribed strong anti-histamines and adrenergic antagonists and have been de-activated by the very fuel intended for their rocket.

There's nothing wrong with a clinician deciding to sell popular textbooks, but this doesn't sound like confusion from simplification for general audiences. It sounds like he's selling more hand-waving woo to them.


Well, here's a short description from the 2nd edition. ""California rocket fuel": High-dose venlafaxine plus mirtazapine. This is a combination of antidepressants that has a great degree of theoretical synergy: reuptake blockade plus alpha 2 blockade ; serotonin reuptake plus 5HT2A antagonism; 5HT actions plus NE actions. Specifically, 5HT is triple-boosted, with reuptake blockade, alpha 2 antagonism, and 5HT2A antagonism; NE is double-boosted, with reuptake blockade plus alpha 2 antagonism; and there may even be a bit of single boost to DA from reuptake blockade."

Really, I'm only focusing on Stahl because his book is the source of the term. I don't think he's trying to reach general audiences at all. Essential Psychophamacology is more of a textbook for medical and doctoral students. Prescriber's Guide is for practicing psychiatrists. Blah, blah, blah. Fair point, though, about the numerous editions and all with most things, including this.

The real benefit of Essential Psychopharmacology, to me, is that he takes a very symptom-based approach to treatment rather than just "oh, here's what's good for depression" and then provides a neurobiological basis for the symptoms and treatment. By the way, he covers much more than just depression, but we're talking here specifically about a combination for treatment-resistant depression.

As for "activating," point taken, and I don't even know if he uses the term. Think of it more as a subtype of depression which includes lethargy, excessive sleepiness, etc, as symptoms. An "activating" substance is one that treats those symptoms. An SSRI typically won't be activating, which is why you turn to the norepinephrine and/or dopamine relevant anti-depressants for this subtype. OP seems to have the opposite problem if he's been taking benzos, even though most people don't associate anxiety or excitation with clinical depression, which is why I keep questioning this particular combo for OP.
 
Thank you for tolerating my snark and quoting the book.

If OP is truly an OCD sufferer, his previous doctor may have treated it initially as a severe anxiety disorder. For panic, the FDA monograph suggests up to 10mg alprazalom per day. His present doctor is slowly bringing him off.

The FDA also regulates how drugs are marketed, and likes clinical studies for deciding what a med can be said to do for a person. That's slow and sometimes constrains doctors from prescribing based on hypotheses, but it's not the fault of the clinicians following guidelines. I'd prefer my doctor to recommend meds based on what they've been shown to do, not what he thinks they might do (granted that means whatever I'm being treated for isn't so weird it doesn't already have metastudies of metastudies to look at).

In that sense, about the only things SSRIs have been shown to be pretty good at, besides premature ejaculation, is treating OCD. Not necessarily better than some of the harsher old school tricyclics, but not bad. So paroxetine makes some sense, even the venlafaxine.

But the rest of the reasoning sounds exactly like the kind of thing we would say here on Bluelight: "5-HT triple-boosted, reuptake blockade plus alpha2 antagonism, HT-2c disinhibiting dopamine . . . ." I hate to have our viewers at home hear this, that's why I waited till 2am, but, speaking for myself of course, we're drug-addled idiots, for the most part.

By that I mean I'd hope the reasoning went deeper than the stuff I pull out of open-access reviews and Wikipedia, then get backwards when posting, what with the big bowl of meth in between. Some of it comes down to the deepest parts of psychiatry: what does a triple-boost of serotonin mean, or do for a person? He means strictly at 5-HT1. Which you may know is also the autoreceptor, and invoked to explain SSRI function by desensitization. By his own handwaving I could argue it's just a more precise triple-dose Paxil.

Really, with stuff like "disinhibition" of dopamine by HT2c, and increased serotonin signalling by alpha2 blockade, the feedback loops involved suggest it's all analog and no one has a clue what's going on.

So why am I bothered by this guy specifically? I haven't looked for academic publications yet, maybe he's truly brilliant with some deep, peer-reviewed reasoning, but it still smells like he's angling to be the literate Dr. Phil/non-scrubs Dr. Oz/brains-need-cosmetics-too-level Dr. Perricone/guest spot on whatever Oprah does now, make it rain free cars or something.
 
€ ha

Triple boosting seems cool, imagine triple boosting premature ejaculation-or treating it, whichever you prefer

disinhibition-like inhibiting inhibition-which is how I do things

It is like the, well whatever you call irregardless-it’s not a fucking word, and if it is then it makes no sense-it is self defeating

Ugh- maybe this guy is like the $ guy- whatever his name was-in any case this doesn’t really impress me, though probably will not bother to check up on it
 
Thank you for tolerating my snark and quoting the book.

If OP is truly an OCD sufferer, his previous doctor may have treated it initially as a severe anxiety disorder. For panic, the FDA monograph suggests up to 10mg alprazalom per day. His present doctor is slowly bringing him off.

The FDA also regulates how drugs are marketed, and likes clinical studies for deciding what a med can be said to do for a person. That's slow and sometimes constrains doctors from prescribing based on hypotheses, but it's not the fault of the clinicians following guidelines. I'd prefer my doctor to recommend meds based on what they've been shown to do, not what he thinks they might do (granted that means whatever I'm being treated for isn't so weird it doesn't already have metastudies of metastudies to look at).

In that sense, about the only things SSRIs have been shown to be pretty good at, besides premature ejaculation, is treating OCD. Not necessarily better than some of the harsher old school tricyclics, but not bad. So paroxetine makes some sense, even the venlafaxine.

But the rest of the reasoning sounds exactly like the kind of thing we would say here on Bluelight: "5-HT triple-boosted, reuptake blockade plus alpha2 antagonism, HT-2c disinhibiting dopamine . . . ." I hate to have our viewers at home hear this, that's why I waited till 2am, but, speaking for myself of course, we're drug-addled idiots, for the most part.

By that I mean I'd hope the reasoning went deeper than the stuff I pull out of open-access reviews and Wikipedia, then get backwards when posting, what with the big bowl of meth in between. Some of it comes down to the deepest parts of psychiatry: what does a triple-boost of serotonin mean, or do for a person? He means strictly at 5-HT1. Which you may know is also the autoreceptor, and invoked to explain SSRI function by desensitization. By his own handwaving I could argue it's just a more precise triple-dose Paxil.

Really, with stuff like "disinhibition" of dopamine by HT2c, and increased serotonin signalling by alpha2 blockade, the feedback loops involved suggest it's all analog and no one has a clue what's going on.

So why am I bothered by this guy specifically? I haven't looked for academic publications yet, maybe he's truly brilliant with some deep, peer-reviewed reasoning, but it still smells like he's angling to be the literate Dr. Phil/non-scrubs Dr. Oz/brains-need-cosmetics-too-level Dr. Perricone/guest spot on whatever Oprah does now, make it rain free cars or something.

Scrofula, no offense taken, and you're raising all the right points.

About pharm substances in general, you're hinting at something that I'll explicitly say. The way it works in the US, pharm substances get approved by the FDA for one (or more) uses. The companies manufacturing can only advertise based on those approved uses. Doctors, however, are largely free to prescribe for any reason, typically called "off-label."

As for Stahl and the text I quoted... well, you're underestimating some BLers there! :) What is missing from what I quoted, though, was the earlier neuroscience behind everything. Also, for this sort of cocktail, he is explicit about there being a lack of clinical "evidence" but that it may still be good to use for people who are unresponsive to other treatments. I think that's a big part of the speculative aspect that you're picking up on, since he is trying to avoid excessive claims. As for things like "double" or "triple" boosts, the point is more about how the differ in the mechanism of action. There is, for instance, typically a concern when you have one substance that increases serotonin and another that blocks it's reuptake... those situations often lead to life-threatening serotonin syndrome. This combo has a much lower risk. Notice that I said "lower risk" instead of "no risk."

I do see your concern about this being the semi-intellectual Dr. Phil. Very valid concern. That said, I'd suggest checking out Essential Psychopharmacology if you have the time and interest (since resources can be monetary or Google-based).
 
Tried that combo and nothing activating in it unless you consider not only being depressed but also not being able to ejaculate at all activating...
 
I'm only still going at this guy so I don't get sucked into the semantics of inhibition and triple boosted ejaculations; nobility and the quadruped-transmogrifying powers bestowed upon it, and Oakland has a basketball team.

Tough to pin this guy down. It's a little too cheap to point at his suspense/action/thriller novels and call it Michael Chricton envy. It apparently is true that these are used as texts in academic settings. I've seen those weird ball diagrams floating around in all kinds of weird internet corners. They have received praise, at least as reference material, by professionals in the medical fields. He is in good standing with reputable alma maters.

But c'mon, this is a stupid combination of drugs, and naming it like that just destroys any credibility as an actual researcher. Not if it's just an aside or in a lecture, but he's promoting it. As treatment. He's influencing doctors to prescribe this shit.



I mean, what's a prescriber to do when a patient points out the mixed metaphor, "But doc, how can it lift off if it's got no brakes on the highway?" Venlafaxine should be blowing gasoline from your mouth straight into the carburetor while hanging on the hood, just like Mad Max. Except, if the patient did take it he'd wonder the fuck this activation is about: "Doc, not only am I not rocketing anywhere, my uh, personal rocket seems to have fallen over on the launchpad."

See, back when I was a real boy I worked for a professor on an advanced genetics class. She had (adopted) a whole schema for cancer genetics involving chromosome fusion breakage. Taught like it was fact. But it's just a model, and it's known that it just doesn't work that way. It's bad faith, in my opinion, but fine with a footnote. What would be evil is if someone gets chemotherapy drugs because the doctor took the analogy as accepted fact.

So you need analogies and metaphors to explain anything. I said somewhere on this board that dopamine 2 receptors are where shadow people live. At least one person read that and ref'd it later. If I had better credentials someone might take that view of psychosis as meaningful. But then I'd want to clarify to anyone who asked that I was obviously high when I said that. Not write a lecture series around using trepanation and a flashlight to get the shadow people out of a schizophrenic's brain (the meth addicts probably already tried).

It would even be OK, kind of, if he spoke generally, of a neuroleptic with an SNRI. There are so many drugs, and combos, that would accomplish something similar, possibly better even within his own model, you have to ask why these two specifically? Even though they're not compatible (not from serotonin syndrome, no one has said that but kangaroo twice with safety once. Interestingly, pointing out benzos as problematic, I'd expect more interaction of benzos with venlafaxine, based on possible NMDA fuckery by tramadol).

So the Stahl PR machine is good, and fucking journals maintain paywalls for everything, but I did find a review, by a be-bona-fided psychiatrist in India's Mental Health ministry, in a Journal of I'm Not Sure. He has praise, but I think his criticisms nail it pretty well:

[T]he contents are presented as facts. However, when one goes into details, as Stahl does, devils exist in the form of controversies. Unfortunately, Stahl does not address the controversies or the weaknesses of hypotheses; he merely presents the dominant view.

As an example, some 30 pages of the book are devoted to the glutamatergic hypothesis of schizophrenia. On the one hand, acute psychosis is conceptualized as a state of glutamatergic excitotoxicity but little evidence in support is presented . . . . On the other hand, positive, negative, and cognitive symptoms are forcefully and in extreme detail argued to result from a completely opposite state: NMDA receptor hypofunction. Stahl does not reconcile these opposing stances; however, to judge from the depth of his coverage, he favors the latter mechanism.

Critically, the NMDA hypofunction hypothesis is heavily dependent on the finding that NMDA receptor antagonists such as PCP and ketamine better model the spectrum of schizophrenia symptoms than dopaminergic drugs such as amphetamine, or serotonergic drugs such as LSD. However, Seeman (2009) points out that both PCP and ketamine have dopaminergic effects and may well induce psychosis through dopaminergic rather than glutamatergic mechanisms. If this is true, the entire NMDA hypofunction hypothesis falls flat on its face.

To do Stahl justice, he does acknowledge in his preface that his intention is to simplify at the expense of precision. Unfortunately, no reader would know what is a controversy and what is not.


Oh, but I could ramble more, but no.
 
Scrofula, you're the perfect example of the value of Bluelight, which is why I finally signed up to post something. Your skepticism is what's needed more here on Bluelight and among both casual users and scientific researchers. And I basically agree with almost everything you've said.

No time to post more now, but I will once I get the chance.
 
Thanks for all the replies. Here is a little more info:
I was put on Benzos about 8 years ago for anxiety/OCD. Normally my obsessive thoughts causes anxiety, so I probably should never have been prescribed them. Now 8 years later my body is hooked on them so I am doing a slow slow tamper per my DR. My former doctor had me on 18mg Clonzepam per day!! Unreal.
I have an extreme love attachment disorder where I will get romantically attached to someone I find attractive and spend too much time around - my brain will cling to them so strong ALL I can think about is her/whoever 24/7. It controls my life. It leads me to suicidal thoughts, so my OCD is really just obsessive thoughts on another person. I can not control it. It sounds dumb, but the amount of emotional pain is unreal I would not wish this on anyone. It is mental Hell or mental torture basically.. It is hard to explain and very very few people suffer from it as strongly as I do.

It is like the strongest drug on the planet. If I simply get a text messages from said person, I get a RUSH of happiness, stronger than any drug I have Ever taken. Stronger than Amps or Oxy or anything. It is truly an extreme extreme love attachment problem that normally stems from not getting any love or attention as a child, which I got none. But apparently to have it as extreme and serve as me is extremely rare. I know it sounds dumb but believe me - it is one of the worst things to have. I have lost many if not all my jobs I have ever had because of it.... and felt so depressed it is 100x worse than trying to WD from say Oxy... It is the most extreme attachment disorder humanly possible, if it was even slightly worse, then I would have jumped off a Bridge already, and not be here to type...It is that bad. Words cannot describe it and it is not possible to understand from a normal persons view.

So my doctors theory was Paxil. Why? Since Paxil has the most sexual side effects. So she thought maybe it reduces vasopressin and oxytocin levels more so than other SSRI meds, which I likely have very high levels of. But of course this is just a professional guess. Since my issue is so complex that is why she is okay with me researching it online to try to find something that may work better for me.

As for mirtazapine I am only on that because my previous doctor had me on it for sleep for a year or two, so my new dotor kept me on it as it helped me sleep. She did mention the combination of Effexor + mirtazapine as an option but I figured maybe the Paxil is better since I am trying to reduce my insane overactive need for love, and extreme attachment issues.

I have been on so many drugs to try to help numb the pain, and now it is a cluster f***... So I am hoping I can just take a couple antidepressants and hopefully be okay on them VS taking dozens of prescriptions... I would rather get off everything and only have to take SSRIs. Much better trade off.

I just quit Adderall cold turkey about 1 week ago after being on and off for 7-10 years. I have quit cold turkey in the past and fatigue is the main issue when stopping.
I also have bad neck and back problems so I have been on opiods for 5-7 years daily. I?m down to 5mg Percs 4-5X per day, the lowest amount I have ever been on.
I also started pot about 2 months ago, the same time I started taking an SSRI daily.. Which just make things even more complex. I do not smoke all day, it is mostly at night. It seems the Paxil enhances the Pot as I feel so content and confident, after some THC, which I never felt before when I tried THC many years ago. It used to only cause paranoia. So maybe the Paxil + THC is causing more serotonin, causing the content and confident feeling. I do not know.

I also take 25mg Trazadone at night as I remember someone mentioning it...

I will try to add more details in a shorter way if I can. But as my doctor said quote:
/ I cannot treat your deep rooted issues from childhood that caused you to have extreme love attachment onto others, causing extreme depression/ocd/anxiety as a result of thinking about the person you love... But I can try medications that help manage symptoms of depression/OCD/etc, which you get as a result from your love attachment issues / end quote
So my doctor is trying to find something that maybe will help reduce my insane stupid attachment issues, or at least try to blunt it - so that way it does not occupy my mind 24/7. Paxil was chosen, but I have no idea if that is the best option or not, nor does my doctor, as it is a complex issue.
 
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The above post I made just made it more complex.

From research it seems like Lexapro is the best option for those people with low serotonin as Lexapro is the most selective. True? Is Lexapro not only the most selective, but does it perhaps hit more SERT overall compared to other SSRI?s??
How about Lexapro vs Paxil, which would be, in theory, more effective at reducing attachment problems and OCD? I know every SSRI works differently for others, and some people it takes a few to find the right one. I?m betting the tiny differences in how they hit certain SERT receptors is the reason why Paxil May work wonders for one person and not work in another person.

I?m confused as to why Paxil causes the most sexual side effects and is generally considered the most potent SSRI?? Does it downregulate 5-HT2c more so than other SSRIS? Is it a sloppy SSRI like Prozac, but just more potent so to speak? Or maybe another method? I know Lexapro is considered the most selective SSRI. I know Prozac is the most sloppy SSRI in the sense that it?s not only the least selective SSRI, but hits noradrenaline and even possibly dopamine, slightly.


From Wikipedia or an online post cannot remember just saved the quote:
Quote:
Stimulation of 5-HT2C receptors leads to an increase in?vasopressin,?prolactin, ACTH and oxytocin. Dehydration or hemorrhage causes the release oxytocin via 5-HT2C?(R).
Activation of the 5HT2C receptor helps men ejaculate and get hard (R, R2).
I wouldn?t be surprised if this receptor is part of long-term sexual dysfunction in men who take SSRIs (chronic SSRIs reduce these receptors).


So if taking mirtazapine, what would look like a better combo:
Lexapro + mirtazapine
VS
Paxil + mirtazapine

The goal actually would be to reduce those 2 hormones as much as possible, as even my doctor thinks I have high levels of those 2 hormones which is why I get so attached to people (along with low serotonin).

As far as the original Effexor + mirtazapine? From what I?ve been reading the extra noradrenaline action may be a negative for me, so it seems like maybe an SSRI + mirtazapine would work better for me. But I could be wrong.
 
NOT DONE YET, WILL BE PRETTIER, SHORTER AFTER DRUGS NOW PUBLISH CAT-PROOFS
It's like people know I have nothing to do on a Friday night but eat cold leftovers with my dog and type on the internet (there is also a cat. Not that one, no).

First thing to clear up: you are not "low" on serotonin. No one is, and I can't even imagine what that would look like, other than extreme constipation and death (which is the same for "high" serotonin). That misconception, at least, is not Stahl's fault, but probably Zoloft marketing with that sad blue gumdrop-thing, and the graphic of two dumbells with a bunch of dots swirling around. The monoamine theory of mood disorder, in bad PowerPoint. Eat some Zoloft and the dots swirl faster and the gumdrop now looks more pathetic but hopeful, and it is partly cloudy outside.

SSRIs don't make more serotonin where there wasn't any before (for the most part, lots of **); they primarily just make it stick around between cells longer, which has all kinds of consequences that aren't even known to be misunderstood yet. For now, look at it as not about the levels of chemicals, and all about the signals they carry. If the cable goes out, it's not because Comcast ran out of internet, IOW.​

Second thing--my personal opinion, worth it's weight in electrons making your screen glow, except the parts that are fact--there's psychiatry and there's neuropharmacology and then's there psychology and schools of therapy and then Dr. Phil. Your doctor will belong to one of those categories and treat you based on the schools of thought she was trained in. Thus, someone like me may:

  • have a Social Anxiety Disorder, with its own treatment (medications) and prognosis (life on medications);

  • or, have an Avoidant Personality Disorder, who can only hope a lifetime with a (expensive) therapist will at least help alleviate some suffering.

Likewise there is Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, and Obsessive Personality Disorder. The personality disorders (PDs) all seem to have many many subtypes and come from old-school sit-on-the-couch and talk-about-your-mother and why you wet the bed still. There's a subclassification based purely on speculation and case studies for every graduate thesis, probably.

The other disorders seem to come from old-school medical curricula and thus lend themselves more readily to drugs. Two convergent fields, impinging on actual science. One sees imbalanced chemicals and clinical trials, the other sees thoughts and lots of talking about thoughts.

I bring this up because you, OP, are probably being placed into the Obsessive PD side, rather than the OCD medical side. One needs Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, the other needs Paxil. This is based entirely on misremembering a This American Life episode, and Harper's and New Yorker articles on the obsessively lovelorn (I'm a believer in PDs despite a reduction to a SNP in some unknown receptor promoter region; same etiology for several delusional disorders). And I'll throw in Bowe Bergdahl, who gets a Schizotypal PD diagnosis on the TAL-knock-off whatever it's called radio program.

I would just like you to remember at all times that your treatment may be completely different just by changing the letters after your doctors name. It's not always about just which pill you should take, one approach isn't necessarily more correct than the other, either.

THING THE THIRD: you know what else causes sexy thoughts and obsessions and delusions? Stimulants, of the Adderall mixed amphetamine salt type. That was a long time to be on stimulants when it's not that weird for people to get obsessed about a specific person to the point of restraining orders anyway. The term of the art there is Crazy Ex, no need for psychotropic medication or therapists (usually). (No I'm not calling you a restrained psychotic ex, OP, I'm just picturing it, hypothetically, for this third point.)

The segue to fourth thing includes psychotic people and how they shouldn't go near weed ever. But you haven't said anything about psychoses, so smoke on, far as i know. But you're taking too much stuff, and with the stims and opiates and benzos, are set up for raging addiction problems if they're not there already. Maybe sex addiction too--instead of conscientious compulsive anankastic personality disorder you just really like fucking. Given all the people-and-substance focusing you might want to stick with the dopamine antagonists like you are now (and avoiding opioids and gabaergics).


Post Two word salad tossing frequency increasing as the loaded bowl stares back ever more impatient:

What's funny is that venlafaxine is on the shitty end of the selectivity spectrum. Of the SSRI's, all of them are going to be, as the name suggests, selective for SERT over all other brain targets, to a degree that vastly exceeds most other psych meds. The rest are a mash-up of some dopamine antagonism here, some adrenergic there, a lot of potent antihistamine, with a weird imidazoline or orexin now and then. Basically escitalopram/Lexapro, even if it's ultra-super-duper selective, isn't going to be clinically better than the super-selective sertraline.

Did you know that sertraline/Zoloft has the same affinity for the dopamine transporter as methylphenidate/Ritalin? (And a whole lot more than bupropion/Welbutrin or venlafaxine/Effexor.) But nobody's getting hooked on Zoloft, because it prefers the serotonin transporter nearly 100-fold more. The amount needed to affect serotonin is 1% of what's needed to have a cocaine/Ritalin feel.

A lot of meds like mirtazapine will block some dopamine, adrenergic, and serotonin receptors in different ratios, but sadly at only 1-10% of what they do with histamine or cholinergic receptors. So to get an effect on the systems you want, you're going to be doped into a no-memory coma.

Every SSRI works the same way; the differences are in side effects and dosing schedules. I'd have to dig through pay-wall clinical results, and I bet you can find metastudies comparing all the SSRIs with some slick ANOVA and finally a p>0.05, that says which one is best for what. And I bet none of the metastudies agree very well, or have too many asterii--because they all do the same thing, which is very little other than make sex dull.

I don't know why you think Paxil has the most sex side-effects. Some people think it has the worst discontinuation, before venlafaxine came to market. I don't think there's much to any of it, and comes from some bad press for Paxil over bad marketing and other corporate fuckery, rather than confirmed clinical results. Likewise I wouldn't expect any difference between SSRIs for OCD. Attachment disorder is probably a separate thing though, and may not have a validated questionaire for screening enough participants, or however that shit works, this is all me reading too broadly and making stuff up. You should have met me when I still drank.

Your mechanisms kind of contradict each other on the SSRI sex drive. An SSRI would cause mild increases in 2c activation. If there's anything to the "disinhibition" of dopamine release by antagonizing 2c, then that might explain a decreased libido while on SSRIs. Activating 2c would maintain a dopamine inhibition, and dopamine and sex are a tighter match than oxytocin. But that's almost meaningless without knowing more about what "disinhibition" even means, cause I need to handle my own dopamine needs before looking up what might just be a Stahl analogy with little behind it.

Actually, think of MDMA, with its pretty NON-sexual attachments, caused by basically all the HT receptors on full ON position, including 2c. So there's more to consider: is your attachment a sexy-dopamine thing or a obsessional lovey-serotonin/oxytocin thing. (Also remember you need oxytocin to fear strangers too, it's not about "love" really and more like "trust and distrust".)

OK, I really do need to SWIM and life preserver the rest of my methyl-phenylpropanyl-amine order
 
First: THANKS for the detailed reply!

I do take low dose 5HTP with my SSRI as I know SSRI only reuptake it. My doctor also said it was fine, just to keep the 5HTP low and watch for side-effects.

Second thing--my personal opinion, worth it's weight in electrons making your screen glow, except the parts that are fact--there's psychiatry and there's neuropharmacology and then's there psychology and schools of therapy and then Dr. Phil. Your doctor will belong to one of those categories and treat you based on the schools of thought she was trained in. Thus, someone like me may:

  • have a Social Anxiety Disorder, with its own treatment (medications) and prognosis (life on medications);
  • or, have an Avoidant Personality Disorder, who can only hope a lifetime with a (expensive) therapist will at least help alleviate some suffering.

Likewise there is Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, and Obsessive Personality Disorder. The personality disorders (PDs) all seem to have many many subtypes and come from old-school sit-on-the-couch and talk-about-your-mother and why you wet the bed still. There's a subclassification based purely on speculation and case studies for every graduate thesis, probably.

The other disorders seem to come from old-school medical curricula and thus lend themselves more readily to drugs. Two convergent fields, impinging on actual science. One sees imbalanced chemicals and clinical trials, the other sees thoughts and lots of talking about thoughts.
I bring this up because you, OP, are probably being placed into the Obsessive PD side, rather than the OCD medical side. One needs Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, the other needs Paxil. This is based entirely on misremembering a This American Life episode, and Harper's and New Yorker articles on the obsessively lovelorn (I'm a believer in PDs despite a reduction to a SNP in some unknown receptor promoter region; same etiology for several delusional disorders). And I'll throw in Bowe Bergdahl, who gets a Schizotypal PD diagnosis on the TAL-knock-off whatever it's called radio program.

I would just like you to remember at all times that your treatment may be completely different just by changing the letters after your doctors name. It's not always about just which pill you should take, one approach isn't necessarily more correct than the other, either.
You are exactly right... I do not know which one I fit in. But my current doctor thinks it is an underlying problem that she can only try meds and therapy to treat the symptoms.
As for the love attachment ocd? It is not sexual at all, it is all love/attachment based. I just want to be with them and have thoughts of just wanting to hold them and be happy with them - little to no sexual thoughts. Of course that would be nice, but it doesn?t occupy my mind at all. Sex has little or nothing to do with it. Probably because I got zero attention or love as a child and am seeking it out in others - my doctor or former therapist once told me this.


THING THE THIRD: you know what else causes sexy thoughts and obsessions and delusions? Stimulants, of the Adderall mixed amphetamine salt type. That was a long time to be on stimulants when it's not that weird for people to get obsessed about a specific person to the point of restraining orders anyway. The term of the art there is Crazy Ex, no need for psychotropic medication or therapists (usually). (No I'm not calling you a restrained psychotic ex, OP, I'm just picturing it, hypothetically, for this third point.)
Adderall is not the cause of my attachment disorder as I had my first case of EXTREME attachment disorder years before taking any, and I mean ANY pills or drugs.
BUT... Adderall does worsen it. Surprisingly I am the opposite of what you would think when you here of love attachment disorder. In fact: once I fall for someone, my brain thinks about them 24/7. BUT, I do NOT stalk them, or attempt to annoy them, in fact I actually sit in my room listening to music, in misery, wanting to die. The depression is so bad I want to die. It is pure mental torture. So I actually think about them 24/7 but DO NOT go out and stalk them, or annoy them, rather I keep to myself and suffer to myself in utter misery. I do text them and talk with her, but I am careful not to over text as I do not want to annoy her. So all the pain and misery it is all coming right back into me, and only me, I do not act it out in the way of stalking them/etc like others might do, rather I am the opposite..
As for Adderall making it worse - whenever I think of the girl I love, I feel anxiety. Overwhelming anxiety. Adderall gives me anxious energy, so when I think of her the anxiety is now even worse. Also it seems to increase my OCD. Otherwise I had the problem way before starting Adderall or any meds. But I have been OFF Adderall cold turkey for 10 or so days now.
So while NOT the cause of it, amps/Adderall do make anxiety worse, which is why I stopped them.

The segue to fourth thing includes psychotic people and how they shouldn't go near weed ever. But you haven't said anything about psychoses, so smoke on, far as i know. But you're taking too much stuff, and with the stims and opiates and benzos, are set up for raging addiction problems if they're not there already. Maybe sex addiction too--instead of conscientious compulsive anankastic personality disorder you just really like fucking. Given all the people-and-substance focusing you might want to stick with the dopamine antagonists like you are now (and avoiding opioids and gabaergics).

Well... The first few times I tried weed I had crazy paranoia, and basically psychosis. It was medical pot so I know it was not laced. I actually thought I caused permanent damage, as I would feel just weird or off for days after smoking pot... Like my mind was a fog and kind of paranoia, I do not remember fully it was so long ago. But It scared me to death!
For some reason over a decade later I tried it, and while sometimes I feel like I am losing it (I had my first ever full blown panic attack a month or so ago when I smoked too much and thought I was going to die and was losing it) other times I feel calm, content, and happy. Since I now know the weed can make me feel a little crazy - sometimes - but I just ignore it, as I know it will go away now.. Most of the time though weed just makes music and movies way better and I feel happier. So I have to be careful I do not get too high.
And oh yes, I have raging addiction problems:
I have been addicted to Benzos for almost a decade. AMPS for almost a decade. And opiods for 5-7 years now.
But I am doing a slow slow tamper off Benzos. I FIRMLY believe Benzos CREATED anxiety for me. I mean 16-20mg Clonzepam per day, at at once!?! My doctor was nuts!! I have rebound anxiety or random anxiety when normally I never would have it - my guess is the Benzos worsened it. So I am hoping an SSRI or something can replace it. I would rather be hooked on Prozac then a Benzo!
I quit Adderall/AMPS cold turkey. I ONLY took these to improve my mood and energy, I do not think I have actual ADHD/ADD. So that is why I asked about this California Rocket fuel mix, as I was hoping it would give me energy (to replace the Adderall) and also to help my attachment problem, but now I realize nothing will be strong enough to replace it. So far i have been doing okay with just coffee, luckily over the past few months I was taking only 10-20mg a day of Adderall so when I quit cold turkey my dosage was not too high, so going cold turkey off it is not as bad as a higher dose.
I am down from taking over 100mg+ daily of hydro/Oxy down to just roughly 20mg daily.
So I am hoping to find a good antidepressant combo to make me feel semi-okay or normal, as taking Adderall and Vicodin to try and feel normal does not work - as we all know tolerance builds and it becomes worse...
As for sex addiction? Not yet. I have only had sex a coupe times in my life. Because of this attachment problem I not only lack self-confident and self-esteem (or maybe those are separate issues) but it causss me to have very few relationships.
Almost no sexual thoughts - just wanting them to know I loved them and wanted to be in their presence, etc. I guess I wanted that love/attention I never got as a child, and now I seek it out in other people (according to my doctor). My current attachment also rarely involves sexual thoughts... I do anything I can to make her happy, spending thousands of dollars to make her happy (like paying for her car to be fixed when it broke down) and I do that because my brain is so attached to them I cannot help it! I know it is dumb and irrational, I even know she does not like me back the same way (I asked) yet my brain still is attached and cannot get over it, or act rationally when it comes to her..I know I am being used but my brain is so attached.
I have not seen her in about 3 weeks, I have been purposely avoiding any contact as whenever I do - it sparks it back up 100x more. The only way I can ever get over an attachment is to cut off communication and cry myself to sleep and hope I don?t jump off a bridge - which I almost have.
Luckily right now my attachment is dying off as I have not seen her in weeks, and I have been attached to her for 2 years, so if I keep this up, then I will slowly get over her... Then eventually I will end up attached to someone else! The amount of love I crave cannot be fulfilled, unless by another person with the same mindset as me...

BUT... I could see myself being addicted to sex, as anything that feels good can be addicting... I also have had very little sex in my life, so who knows.

is your attachment a sexy-dopamine thing or a obsessional lovey-serotonin/oxytocin thing. (Also remember you need oxytocin to fear strangers too, it's not about "love" really and more like "trust and distrust"
That is a really good question, but I firmly believe it is not sexy-dopamine related thing
In order for me to become attached to someone I must A.) Find then very very attractive (which makes it sound dopamine/sexual but it is not) and B.) Spend some time with them in order to create memories..
I have almost NO SEXUAL fantasy or desires! I simply want to be around them, to love them, and I become ultra attached. Being able to hug them in bed is what I dream of! Not sex though. While of course that would be nice, I could live without it... I am more into the love/attachment part than anything sex-related.
So I am guessing it is an obsessive serotonin/Oxytocin thing.. As it is purely Love attachment and NO sexual needs, but of course sex with them would be nice - but not required OR part of my obsessive thoughts. I also find trusting people when it comes to relationships scary, as well, I get so attached to them that the thought of them cheating makes me want to die.

So just wondering What do you mean by it being a serotonin/oxytocin attachment thing? Since That seems to be the case for me, is therapy and SSRI a way to go?
 
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I suppose i must have attachment disorder because i woke up
Watched azzyland and sssniperwolf (attractive females)
Went for a few mile walk listening to Emma Stone sing in lala land
Watched Brittany Pentibone, blonde in the belly of the beast
Ate watching jessie paege fully clothed not technically sexual
Watched barbara4u2c and astonbirdie and ally hardesty and roaming millennial (female) and lauren southern
Then listened to poppie (female), paramore, avril lavigne, taylor swift, kesha, melanie martinez, mariana and the diamonds, lilly allen, doddie , lorde , hazel hayes
And when typing this listening to haley reinhart

Technically none of this was sexual.

I actually tried to commit suicide and glad i failed.

I think you can find ways of getting of satisfying your sexual desires that go beyond penetration instead of trying to drug out one of the strongest drives to be with your prefered gender.
 
Ha that is not even close. It is hard to explain but I will say an SSRI does seem to help.

Already noticing some reduction and it has been a month. Never have seen these kind of results from ANY medications/drugs. I think serotonin does play a serious role in relationships/attachments/etc. Probably the reason why so many swear that quote: my husband of 20 years was taking Prozac and in 6 months he suddenly no longer loved me - Perhaps it does lower attachment/love feelings - so those who do NOT need it, things like that happen. But for those who could benefit from it feel more in line with what some would call-normal serotonin levels. Dunno.


But what about Trazadone, how does that fit into a SSRI/Mirtazapine mix?

I am prescribed Trazadone to help sleep and it sure makes you drowsy... but too much (such as 100mg or more) and you can sleep in, or feel hangover like tired feeling next day. If I take 50mg or less it seems to help sleep, but doesn?t cause nearly as bad next day fatigue.. But at low doses like that does Trazadone have much action? I do not fully understand how Trazadone even works
 
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