Stimulants Selegiline with Vyvanse - have I microdosed amphetamines?

[Scrofula]

Maybe you should share what your microdosing theory is. I mean, I don't even know what your anecdotes say is supposed to happen.

You take d-amphetamine everyday; but you're worried that an amount of l-amphetamine a little less than someone gets in their daily Adderall, and which has no affinity for dopamine receptors, nonetheless does something to them.

Even though, by taking a dopamine releasing agent (d-amph) combined with a drug that inhibits the breakdown of dopamine (selegiline, functioning as a MAO inhibitor) you are experiencing much greater than normal activation of your dopamine receptors.

So even if l-amph did have some affinity for those receptors, they would be utterly drowned out by all the added endogenous ligand. Even if l-amph instead had affinity for the dopamine transporter, it's just going to be lining up next to d-amph.

There's no mechanism you could propose for l-amph involving dopamine pathways that isn't already affected by your use of d-amph. I'm at a loss to see what it is you think you could be doing to your brain, other than you should not be taking these drugs together.

What is it that you think the l-amph (as a micro-dose, although honestly it's more like half, not a millionth, an Adderall dose) could do to your dopamine receptors?

 

[CFC]

Bioshockszz you aren't microdosing, as I already said. Your 30mg daily vyvanse will have produced a continuously elevated steady-state serum concentration of d-amp far in excess of any microdose long ago.

For you to be able to 'microdose' (even if the theory wasn't just flawed rodent hyperlocomotion-based observational inferences), your peak serum concentration(s) over some certain period of time (days?, weeks?, months?) would have to be the microdose. Otherwise, as I said, we'd all be microdosing every time we started and stopped any drug.

Regardless, the constant stimulation from your circulating d-amp would certainly trounce any potential l-amp peripheral adrenergic 'sensitisation'. Probably a few cups of coffee, a 30-minute run, or a nice cup of stimulating raw cacao would too. Which is another reason the theory's likely nonsense.

 

[Scrofula]

The sensitization the paper refers to is behavioral, and only involved normal doses given before an overdose anyway. They just used a readout that involved dopamine neurons because it was convenient for the researchers. I wrote several truly brilliant analogies, already submitted for Pulitzers, in the BL thread for it in NPD.

But basically, all it comes down to is that I'm sensitized for cocaine, because right after I do a line I throw my head back and yell "WHOOOOOOOoaoasabbababasasdfaaYAAAAYOOOO!" and have to poop suddenly, before the drug has even had a chance to be absorbed. It is not something that comes from micro-dosing. No unusual, or even interesting or counter-intuitive, or paradoxical effects were demonstrated in that paper, other than that researchers must have been giving massive overdoses to rats and were surprised to see smoke coming out of their little ears.

People who eat small doses of LSD everyday, just like eating LSD. All it does for them is build tolerance.

 

[CFC]

Well I for one thoroughly enjoy my pavlovian reaction to knowing my dealer is on his way with a nice big bag of happy vape-friendly crystals. Except when he's, like, 48 hours late and only then discovered that he's actually completely out of stock and, so sorry, how about next week?

Right, I'm off to go read some Booker-prize winning analogies

 

[Phobos]

There is research published that shows Selegiline increasing levels of BDNF, NGF and GDNF and thus increased dopaminergic neurons by both sparing existing ones and generate new ones.

 

[Bioshockszz]

The anecdotes are what you replied to on that other thread that you linked me to. I don’t believe the theory but it’s basically taking a very very small dose of something you are used to. Your brain acts as though it is used to much more than that and effectively changes so that it can make use of that much smaller dose. The fact I had vyvvanse at 12pm and selegeline at 3pm wouldn’t matter - it wouldn’t matter that I already had d amp in my system and was adding a minuscule bit more.

A strange personal phenomena for me is the huge difference between 20mg elvanse and 30mg elvanse. To simplify let’s just say 30mg elvanse puts me in an extremely positive mindset and 20mg elvanse puts me in a negative mindset. Here’s the strange part: when I have had 30mg morning dose and 30mg afternoon dose, that positive feeling is amplified - makes sense right? More dopamine, more d amp. When I take 30mg morning 20 mg afternoon, I get into a very negative state consistently. Mybrain doesn’t function the same. The 20mg overrides that previous 30mg it doesn’t add to the positive feeling like the 30mg. Now if I take 50mg in the morning, again very positive, like an amplified 30mg. That smaller does however really messes me, even though I am adding the d amp already in me. My experience aligns with those anecdotes, so I know smaller doses of stims can be really bad and really dangerous. What I don’t know is their claim of sensitisation of dopamine receptors or long term changes. So my worry was a very small dose of l amp could do this as I’m used to much higher doses of d amp. Please try to get out of the mindset of I am just adding a little bit of amp to amp already in my system. If you could think about my personal anecdote with the 20mg, and think of any possible causes of that effect and if you think there is a link between that and these people’s claim of sensitising dopamine receptors long term- that’s what I was looking for an answer for.

in relation to the selegeline, I had one dose of 2.5mg and it is the worst thing I have ever had. Still feeling negative effects 5 days after. I take the vyyvanse in the morning and feel fine. When that wears off in the afternoon, I start the feel brain fog, a bit dizzy. Also I just had chocolate and pretty sure I had some hypertension. Struggled to breathe a little bit, felt a bit dizzy and had a phone conversation in which I couldn’t articulate myself properly. Is this hypertension caused from Selegeline? Is this MAOB it had it possibly converted to MAOI A in my system? If so how long will these side effects last? It’s these things that are causing me a bit of worry when reading about the permanent “microdosing” effects - I have a little bit of a nervous tic where I look out the side of my eye uncontrollably when my brain resources seem to be low and it’s been happening a little bit in the afternoons when the vyvvanse has worn off. Hoping it’s just still the MAOB effect and not one of the longer term changes this microdos My theory seems to claim

 

[Phobos]

The dose of Selegiline that you would take to avoid the MAOI action but get the GDNF, NDF and BDNF increase is 1mg daily.

 

[Bioshockszz]

CFC that makes sense, a microdose wouldn’t be a single dose, it would be a small dose over a period of time, if microdosing was actually a thing

 

[Bioshockszz]

I took 2.5mg once but felt what I think was hypertension after eating chocolate 5 days after that dose. Could that and the negative afternoon effects be the Selegeline still?

 

[Phobos]

Selegiline is an irreversible MAOI, meaning you will need weeks of time for your body to restore normal MAO levels.

 

[Bioshockszz]

I know that. It’s two weeks to return to baseline MAOb I and 40 days half life of MAOb I activity in the brain or something like that.

what you’re not answering though and what you’re forgetting are that those figures are for daily doses of 10mg not for a single dose of 2.5mg, once steady state is reached.

also my question was if the effects I were experiencing were caused by the MaOB inhibition of selegline?

 

[d1nach]

I think its hard to draw any factual causal relationships based off subjective experience.

 

[Phobos]

I know that. It’s two weeks to return to baseline MAOb I and 40 days half life of MAOb I activity in the brain or something like that.

what you’re not answering though and what you’re forgetting are that those figures are for daily doses of 10mg not for a single dose of 2.5mg, once steady state is reached.

also my question was if the effects I were experiencing were caused by the MaOB inhibition of selegline?

Although we cannot know for sure, it is unlikely as Selegiline is selective for
MAO B and approved for use with no dietary restrictions except for high doses.

To be noted that females that are using birth control pills will have the efficacy of the drug multiplied by 10 to 20 times, and need the dosage to be adjusted accordingly.

 

[Bioshockszz]

Although we cannot know for sure, it is unlikely as Selegiline is selective for
MAO B and approved for use with no dietary restrictions except for high doses.

To be noted that females that are using birth control pills will have the efficacy of the drug multiplied by 10 to 20 times, and need the dosage to be adjusted accordingly.

True I was sure it couldn’t be so may have been something else. I also meant the effects I have been feeling in the afternoons since I took that single does 5 days ago. A bit light headed, just not feeling very well, I wondered if that could still be the selegeline?

 

[Scrofula]

The dose of Selegiline that you would take to avoid the MAOI action but get the GDNF, NDF and BDNF increase is 1mg daily.

OK, you need to kindly supply a reference for a statement like that. What mechanism could selegiline even have at 1mg daily, keeping in mind it will still have MAO inhibition abilities?

A single molecule of selegiline will still inhibit one molecule of MAO A, if it gets to your brain. Molecules do not count each other. They do not remain inert waiting for their buddies to show up before "activating." A selegiline molecule has no idea if you took a large dose or a tiny one.

 

[Phobos]

The guy that developed Selegiline, Joseph Knoll, suggests that dosage in his book "How Selegiline ((-)-Deprenyl) Slows Brain Aging".

I guess I should have expressed myself in a better way, ofcourse a low dosage is not going to be completely devoid of any MAOI activity, but it's going to be very mild.

The effects of low dose are going to be an increase in BNDF, NGF, GNDF, as I stated in a previous post.
There is research done on this, you just need to Google "Selegiline BDNF NGF GDNF".

 

[xbandit07x]

The anecdotes are what you replied to on that other thread that you linked me to. I don’t believe the theory but it’s basically taking a very very small dose of something you are used to. Your brain acts as though it is used to much more than that and effectively changes so that it can make use of that much smaller dose. The fact I had vyvvanse at 12pm and selegeline at 3pm wouldn’t matter - it wouldn’t matter that I already had d amp in my system and was adding a minuscule bit more.

A strange personal phenomena for me is the huge difference between 20mg elvanse and 30mg elvanse. To simplify let’s just say 30mg elvanse puts me in an extremely positive mindset and 20mg elvanse puts me in a negative mindset. Here’s the strange part: when I have had 30mg morning dose and 30mg afternoon dose, that positive feeling is amplified - makes sense right? More dopamine, more d amp. When I take 30mg morning 20 mg afternoon, I get into a very negative state consistently. Mybrain doesn’t function the same. The 20mg overrides that previous 30mg it doesn’t add to the positive feeling like the 30mg. Now if I take 50mg in the morning, again very positive, like an amplified 30mg. That smaller does however really messes me, even though I am adding the d amp already in me. My experience aligns with those anecdotes, so I know smaller doses of stims can be really bad and really dangerous. What I don’t know is their claim of sensitisation of dopamine receptors or long term changes. So my worry was a very small dose of l amp could do this as I’m used to much higher doses of d amp. Please try to get out of the mindset of I am just adding a little bit of amp to amp already in my system. If you could think about my personal anecdote with the 20mg, and think of any possible causes of that effect and if you think there is a link between that and these people’s claim of sensitising dopamine receptors long term- that’s what I was looking for an answer for.

in relation to the selegeline, I had one dose of 2.5mg and it is the worst thing I have ever had. Still feeling negative effects 5 days after. I take the vyyvanse in the morning and feel fine. When that wears off in the afternoon, I start the feel brain fog, a bit dizzy. Also I just had chocolate and pretty sure I had some hypertension. Struggled to breathe a little bit, felt a bit dizzy and had a phone conversation in which I couldn’t articulate myself properly. Is this hypertension caused from Selegeline? Is this MAOB it had it possibly converted to MAOI A in my system? If so how long will these side effects last? It’s these things that are causing me a bit of worry when reading about the permanent “microdosing” effects - I have a little bit of a nervous tic where I look out the side of my eye uncontrollably when my brain resources seem to be low and it’s been happening a little bit in the afternoons when the vyvvanse has worn off. Hoping it’s just still the MAOB effect and not one of the longer term changes this microdos My theory seems to claim

Funny how you mentioned this. It seems I recall half life not mattering at all. As in Half-life stacking, toward positive mindset, as in I could start out with a 30 IR and redose 10 Mgs all day long afterward, upward to 60-70 MG, this is Dexedrine IR, but not much different, and it actually puts you in a WORSE and worse frame of mind but also amplifies the Subduement. Basically, you are equally as SUBDUED on 50 MG taken at once as you are 30 MG then 10 MG then later another 10 MG, half life does matter for that, yet you are nowhere near as happy functional as if you ate 50 MG at once.

 

[xbandit07x]

The anecdotes are what you replied to on that other thread that you linked me to. I don’t believe the theory but it’s basically taking a very very small dose of something you are used to. Your brain acts as though it is used to much more than that and effectively changes so that it can make use of that much smaller dose. The fact I had vyvvanse at 12pm and selegeline at 3pm wouldn’t matter - it wouldn’t matter that I already had d amp in my system and was adding a minuscule bit more.

A strange personal phenomena for me is the huge difference between 20mg elvanse and 30mg elvanse. To simplify let’s just say 30mg elvanse puts me in an extremely positive mindset and 20mg elvanse puts me in a negative mindset. Here’s the strange part: when I have had 30mg morning dose and 30mg afternoon dose, that positive feeling is amplified - makes sense right? More dopamine, more d amp. When I take 30mg morning 20 mg afternoon, I get into a very negative state consistently. Mybrain doesn’t function the same. The 20mg overrides that previous 30mg it doesn’t add to the positive feeling like the 30mg. Now if I take 50mg in the morning, again very positive, like an amplified 30mg. That smaller does however really messes me, even though I am adding the d amp already in me. My experience aligns with those anecdotes, so I know smaller doses of stims can be really bad and really dangerous. What I don’t know is their claim of sensitisation of dopamine receptors or long term changes. So my worry was a very small dose of l amp could do this as I’m used to much higher doses of d amp. Please try to get out of the mindset of I am just adding a little bit of amp to amp already in my system. If you could think about my personal anecdote with the 20mg, and think of any possible causes of that effect and if you think there is a link between that and these people’s claim of sensitising dopamine receptors long term- that’s what I was looking for an answer for.

in relation to the selegeline, I had one dose of 2.5mg and it is the worst thing I have ever had. Still feeling negative effects 5 days after. I take the vyyvanse in the morning and feel fine. When that wears off in the afternoon, I start the feel brain fog, a bit dizzy. Also I just had chocolate and pretty sure I had some hypertension. Struggled to breathe a little bit, felt a bit dizzy and had a phone conversation in which I couldn’t articulate myself properly. Is this hypertension caused from Selegeline? Is this MAOB it had it possibly converted to MAOI A in my system? If so how long will these side effects last? It’s these things that are causing me a bit of worry when reading about the permanent “microdosing” effects - I have a little bit of a nervous tic where I look out the side of my eye uncontrollably when my brain resources seem to be low and it’s been happening a little bit in the afternoons when the vyvvanse has worn off. Hoping it’s just still the MAOB effect and not one of the longer term changes this microdos My theory seems to claim

Funny how you mentioned this. It seems I recall half life not mattering at all. As in Half-life stacking, toward positive mindset, as in I could start out with a 30 IR and redose 10 Mgs all day long afterward, upward to 60-70 MG, this is Dexedrine IR, but not much different, and it actually puts you in a WORSE and worse frame of mind but also amplifies the Subduement. Basically, you are equally as SUBDUED on 50 MG taken at once as you are 30 MG then 10 MG then later another 10 MG, half life does matter for that, yet you are nowhere near as happy functional as if you ate 50 MG at once.

Ideally one should dose a 10- then a 15- then a 20 if they are eating 45 MG dex per day suprisingly. It seems Equipotent doses and lowering doses are actually quite lame and cause the mind to get really negative.

 

[Bioshockszz]

Funny how you mentioned this. It seems I recall half life not mattering at all. As in Half-life stacking, toward positive mindset, as in I could start out with a 30 IR and redose 10 Mgs all day long afterward, upward to 60-70 MG, this is Dexedrine IR, but not much different, and it actually puts you in a WORSE and worse frame of mind but also amplifies the Subduement. Basically, you are equally as SUBDUED on 50 MG taken at once as you are 30 MG then 10 MG then later another 10 MG, half life does matter for that, yet you are nowhere near as happy functional as if you ate 50 MG at once.

Ideally one should dose a 10- then a 15- then a 20 if they are eating 45 MG dex per day suprisingly. It seems Equipotent doses and lowering doses are actually quite lame and cause the mind to get really negative.

i have tried dex ir, and that perefectly describes how I felt on it, “subdued” I was prescribed 3x 5mg daily with vyvvanse. Vyvvanse 30mg almost feels like a completely different drug, however. Strange, how different dosing and different release mecahanism can cause different effects to the point where the feel like completely different medications.

Unrelated im still feeling odd, five days after the selegeline. Hard to explain but my brain just doesn’t feel like it’s at its baseline state. Scrofula you mentioned you don’t feel MaOB inhibition but surely you must feel something from segeline or what would be the point in taking it? Just wondering if this feeling is selegeline still affecting my system and will pass soon. Either way having a 3 day holiday from the vyvvanse and anything else

 

[Scrofula]

The guy that developed Selegiline, Joseph Knoll, suggests that dosage in his book "How Selegiline ((-)-Deprenyl) Slows Brain Aging".

Let's see. How can I say this without sounding like a condescending prick. So, a guy who claims to have "developed" a pharmaceutical all by himself, publishes a book promoting its use for the general public, making a claim that is meaningless.

No one develops a pharmaceutical by themselves, mainly because it takes tens of millions of dollars. What is "brain aging"? Is there an assay for that? How would you know a drug "slows" it? It would take longitudinal studies of thousands of people using this drug for non-approved reasons.

This is not a supplement, gentlemen (and xbandit). It's a powerful psychoactive drug that can hurt you.

Scrofula you mentioned you don’t feel MaOB inhibition but surely you must feel something from segeline or what would be the point in taking it?

Maybe a lot of people will be surprised by what I'm about to say, but no, the point of psychiatric medication is not to get a buzz or a rush or feel sparkles in your dopamine ventricles. The point is to suffer less and engage with the world in a more socially-accepted productive way. Not to feel good, or happy, but to go to work like a good little taxpaying citizen (and turn a profit for shareholders).

With insight, you can hope to compare, say, the last couple months of your treatment to where you were in life the previous year, and see if you've had productive changes. Not that the morning med head-rush is qualitatively different today than it was yesterday. If you currently take a powerful stimulant and mix it with other psychiatric meds, you can expect the "feeling" you got from the stimulants to change, that much is true. But it's not the "point" of either of them.

Your treatment is not intended to optimize the pleasure you get from stimulants "kicking in" in the morning.

The "point" of selegiline treatment, specifically, is to offer a tiny improvement in quality of life for people with Parkinson's Disease, actually; and to those with Major Depressive Disorder. MDD being a disease that is considerably worse than feeling really really sad. It is absolutely not "meant" or intended as a way to potentiate ADD meds.


It's why I skip the treatment and go straight to buying this shit off the streets--I can enjoy them kicking in guilt-free.