Ketamine Bladder/Ketamine Cystitis - Any sufferers out there?

[stringybell]

I've known a number of who people have been ketamine addicts over the years - quite a few friends/acquaintances were dealing in both oz and gram style quantities to supplement doing ketamine as much as possible. In fact, every ketamine addict I've ever known did this, using daily or at least multiple nights a week... interspersed with short breaks generally determined by supply/money issues Most have experienced (occasional) severe pains/cramps during use, which subsided via discontinuation, and quite a few complain about needing the toilet more than normal, but otherwise live normal lives since quitting.

Anyway, I know of one single person out of all of the ketamine addicts I know (who generally used for between as much as 3-7 years), who actually has medically diagnosed ketamine cystitis, and his situation is quite different and a lot more serious. The rest of them were just lucky or get out early, I guess. The frequent ketamine droughts a few years back probably helped most of them more than they can possibly know as well...

I really don't think "used 0.3 - 0.5 grams on weekends - occasionally both nights, for a few months" is of much concern, realistically. It is the chronic ketamine users who seem to be seeing the chronic/debilitating health problems, which should be readily diagnosed by medical examination.

FTR, I know quite a lot of people who complain about needing the toilet on a fairly regular basis, including myself, and I do think it can relatively normal and/or psychological. If you need the toilet a lot, try to train yourself not to go, and you should probably be doing regular kegel exercises to strengthen your pelvic floor muscles.

Increased frequency of urination is not a problem for me. The symptoms I suffer from are discomfort/pain in my bladder and testicles that comes in waves or flares.

I don't think it's an all or nothing situation. I believe it's possible to do SOME damage to your lower urinary tract and suffer from milder ketamine cystitis symptoms.

 

[stringybell]

Questions are not a problem man, everyone has them! I can't recally honestly if I had problems until I used other drugs. I do know when I did start using OC's it wasnt really a problem besides not pissing because of opiates. Xanax didn't cause any problems, but once I threw K into the mix, I got a UTI off of just 2 grams of K. I'm not sure if it was the K or sex. I know I'd never had a UTI since then though. I did do K another time after that about a year ago, I got 7 grams and then started a PCP binge for a few weeks and started having incontinence and what I call "K dick" which is the pins and needles feeling. The PCP binge kinda got to my kidneys but I just think that was due to the solvents its smoked with, and perhaps the K as well.

I totally agree with the Tranced though, .3-.5 grams on the weekend is not sufficient enough to cause damage unless you had been using for years every weekend or had an underlying genetic tendency or are otherwise sick.

At this stage I suspect I am one of the unfortunate few with a genetic tendency. My lifestyle during my period of ketamine use could also be a problem - I was partying a lot, taking lots of drugs and generally not sleeping a lot.

 

[Noah quest]

I havent seen special kevin around in a while, how long does k stay in your system and are raves and people with vetenarian licences the only places to get it

 

[ronsebes]

I've used a gram of k to myself in total spread over 7 months, after each use ive encountered uncomfortable bladder symptoms that last a week or two, these symptons linger but aren't as noticeable but haven't seem to have fully disappeared

 

[stringybell]

Wow that's not much use at all to get symptoms...my symptoms seem to resolve when I take long breaks. But then when I use they return

What other drugs aggravated your syntooms after u ceased k? MDMA and speed? Those shouldn't be causing problems.

I need to quit...told my wife to hid my dck...but I think I will have her throw it away as this is not something to fuck around with.

My symptoms are exactly like yours. Krstom seems to also make it worse...other drugs not at all though.

How are your symtpoms going after quitting?

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

you should probably be doing regular kegel exercises to strengthen your pelvic floor muscles.

This is the right line of thinking, some people may also benefit from stretching and relaxing the pelvic floor, doing the splits (hip adductor stretching). As an odd example, botox injection into the bladder itself and some pelvic floor muscles can really help some people with incontinence. For people with multiple sclerosis, botox injection into the bladder itself can work wonders for incontinence.

Part of the reason is that if the muscle kinda surrounding/enveloping the bladder can't fully relax then the bladder can't fully fill, and people get the urge to pee sooner. That's something of an oversimplification, but the point is that muscle tone of the bladder and pelvic floor plays a role in incontinence.

Add in finicky pelvic/bladder nerves (for people with odd groin/genital pains, see pudendal neuralgia), back problems like lumbar herniations which tons of people have, and stress/anxiety related pelvic floor tension and you can have loads of fun with incontinence without ketamine playing a huge role.

 

[absent minded]

Sorry to dig up an old thread, but this has also happened to me. Not specifically from Ketamine use, but heavy dissasociative use. It also means that when I have a flair up, it actually hurts to ejaculate (as well as pee). its pretty horrible - luckily it only comes up once a week or so, sometimes less. I never knew why I had this issue, I figured it was related to my drug abuse though. Now I know it's an actual thing, lol.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

^how much and how long is your disso use history?

I'm sitting in the urologist office right now dealing with this shit, about to get results of a CT scan back.

Extensive use of dissos is some dangerous shit

 

[absent minded]

^how much and how long is your disso use history?

I'm sitting in the urologist office right now dealing with this shit, about to get results of a CT scan back.

Extensive use of dissos is some dangerous shit

Well, for several years I bought nitrous oxide by the case (whippets) online. I don't remember exactly how many boxes came in a case, but it was shitload of them, lol. I would crack whippets all day and all night, easily doing a hundred cartridges in a day some times. After quitting, I have had some symptoms that seem like nerve damage. I also have extreme dry eyes when I wake up in the morning as well as drymouth. My gums have receeded enough that I can tell the difference as well. For a while, it hurt to walk because of pain in my feet that was obviously nerve damage - that, thankfully has gotten better. Honestly out of all the things that came out of this, the most annoying is the extreme dry eyes when I'm laying down/sleeping. When I wake up they are so dry its painful sometimes.

It's not like it completely ruined my life, but its quality of life issues, you know? At this point (many years since I last used dissos or nitrous) I know that some of these issues will not go away and I'll live with it the rest of my life.

For a long time I just assumed nitrous was completely safe (as many online sources will say). It isn't, really at all. I know dissos are also horrible for your brain and I'm sure I've killed a massive amount of brain cells.

Anyways, the issue tackled by this thread - the slight pain while urinating, ejaculation, ect is not something I directly attributed to this use, as I couldn't really track down the exact time that it started at first.. but looking back it and after reading some materials on the condition I'm sure it's connected. For me, it's normally not that bad and only comes up every once in a while. When it does, it is concerning.. and annoying. Just frustrating in general.

Be safe guys. It's not the end of the world, but you can do some serious long term damage to your body with this class of drugs. I hope my experience will help someone else.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

Maybe I'm reading your response wrong...but I don't think nitrous can cause the bladder and urinary syntooms as you eliminate it via evaporation, not by urine. Did you do ket and mxe and stuff too? How much?

That sucks about the nerve damage though.

 

[stringybell]

^how much and how long is your disso use history?

I'm sitting in the urologist office right now dealing with this shit, about to get results of a CT scan back.

Extensive use of dissos is some dangerous shit

How did this go? I'd love to hear an update as to your situation.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

I don't think nitrous can cause the bladder and urinary syntooms as you eliminate it via evaporation, not by urine.

The deleterious effects of NMDA antagonists on the bladder is interestingly not because a direct cytotoxic effect that e.g. ketamine has on the bladder but rather because of a link between the NMDA receptors and physiological/immune/vascular cascades. Unfortunately his means that any NMDA antagonist is capable of producing uropathy/cystitis, should it find its way into the bloodstream and hence the bladder.

The bladder is highly vascularized and the damage that ketamine does seems to be due to microvascular injury -> fibrosis. NMDA receptors control permeability of immune cells like monocytes across the endothelial barrier, and this has been theorized to be at the heart of the issue.


To the person suffering from issues after nitrous - nitrous is well known to deplete B12 and cause demyelination of peripheral nerves. Supplement the crap out of B12 and folate. Demyelination with nitrous abuse is well documented.

CY

 

[LucidSDreamr]

How did this go? I'd love to hear an update as to your situation.

the CT showed nothing. The doctor thinks its non-bacterial prostatitis. (he doesn't know about my drug abuse). He said it could be cystitis but less likely. He prescribed flomax urogesic for pain). It has definitely decreased in pain a lot (not just from the drugs, I think it is improving) but it isn't back to normal yet.

Ever since this episode, I notice a link between spicy curry and this pain also. Another sign of cystitis. I can't say enough about urogesic though. Some hydrocodone and lyrica when it was really bad also helped

Interestingly, I am open to the prostatitis theory as I have used quite a bit of drugs rectally over the years but I'm leaning more towards cystitis via drugs. Cothca do you think theres a chance it could be this?

The deleterious effects of NMDA antagonists on the bladder is interestingly not because a direct cytotoxic effect that e.g. ketamine has on the bladder but rather because of a link between the NMDA receptors and physiological/immune/vascular cascades. Unfortunately his means that any NMDA antagonist is capable of producing uropathy/cystitis, should it find its way into the bloodstream and hence the bladder.

The bladder is highly vascularized and the damage that ketamine does seems to be due to microvascular injury -> fibrosis. NMDA receptors control permeability of immune cells like monocytes across the endothelial barrier, and this has been theorized to be at the heart of the issue.


To the person suffering from issues after nitrous - nitrous is well known to deplete B12 and cause demyelination of peripheral nerves. Supplement the crap out of B12 and folate. Demyelination with nitrous abuse is well documented.

CY

what are your thoughts on kratom or LSD being having such a mechanism with these cascades or worsening problems initialized from dissos? Kratom is the only other drug besides dissos that would cause bladder pain exactly like the one dissos gave me, even when dissos were not recently used.

Also, I always seemed to recover quickly from such episodes and they weren't intense. This last episode which was like nothing I had experienced seem to occur following an intense acid trip. There had been some kratom and DCK use in the weeks before this acid trip and some slight bladder pain. But within a few days after this acid trip it was pain like I had never experienced.

It never seemed to me like my disso use was enough to cause damage compared to friends I have and others I read about. There is definitely a link between the two for me though. I'm wondering how much other drugs contributed though. I'd like to year Cotha's Yankinov's opinion on that possibility as he has lots of medical knowledge. Do you think I can ever do psychedelics again (not dissos) without risk to my bladder?


This whole episode has caused me to greatly reevaluate my drug use. I hired a personal addiction recovery coach and am attending meetings now. There have been lots of other consequences from virtually every class of drug over the years totally unrelated to bladder pain that I'd like to avoid also. I'm pretty sad about not using psychedelics anymore though.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

what are your thoughts on kratom or LSD being having such a mechanism with these cascades or worsening problems initialized from dissos? Kratom is the only other drug besides dissos that would cause bladder pain exactly like the one dissos gave me, even when dissos were not recently used.

Do classical psychedelics exacerbate your issues?

If we approach the issue from a CNS angle and consider the various nerves that control urological function, you can pretty much explain any sort of acute effect. Do you think its more than just an acute worsening thing when you use psychedelics/kratom? The urological nerves themselves express all sorts of receptors, and what gets transmitted naturally down through those nerves from the brain is subject to interference by drugs binding to receptors in the brain/brainstem/spinal cord as well.

I suppose 5-HT2B receptor related fibrosis could be a concern with psychedelics. Fibroblasts, which tend to accumulate near sites of injury and participate in wound healing, express 5-HT2B receptors. Interestingly they can even uptake serotonin and transport it to the site of injury and then release it, where stimulation of various 5-HT receptors at the wound plays a role in fibrosis/wound healing.

Anyways, we don't hear very much (if anything?) about psychedelic induced uropathy, so something tells me its just an acute worsening thing. Psychedelic's effects on the brain and peripheral nerves could be leading to all sorts of effects on urological function, and vasoconstrictive effects of psychedelics probably aren't helping.

The chronic uropathy deal with NMDA antagonists is supposedly largely to do with reduced bladder capacity due to fibrosis, and incontinence can be largely due to malfunction of the bladder's ability to relax and adequately fill up. If the muscle enveloping the bladder doesn't relax and allow it to fill properly, the urge to go arises faster. This is actually why botox into the bladder is a mainstay of treatment for some types of incontinence such as multiple sclerosis related incontinence. Normally you would think that a stronger bladder is better, but in this case you want a relaxed bladder.

If kratom causes a temporary worsening, it could have to do not with the fibrosis related pathology, but rather some effect on the nerves/muscles. However I'm not very familiar with kratom and have heard some talk of hepatotoxicity/nephrotoxicity.
CY

 

[LucidSDreamr]

I don't use a lot of classical psychs so it's hard to gauge. But I would say with MDMA and acid they didn't seem to cause any issues until this last acid trip which seemed to be the breaking point.

With so many drugs being done who knows.

I have found reports on Reddit though of kratom only users getting bladder pain. And other reports of ppl using kratom to treat cystitis pain. I would say kratom is the worst irritating factor next to dissos for me at least.

 

[Xorkoth]

It seems like people react to kratom differently. I've read a few reports of severe, and one of life-threatening, liver issues from light or heavy kratom use. Some people find it irritating to the bladder. Personally, I used it in massive quantities for 7 years (like up to 50 grams a day) and never experienced any irritation or issues other than intense physical dependence that eventually led to stronger opiates.

 

[ShinyShiny11]

Hi, I had low dose .25 mg of ketamine x 6 over 3 weeks, for depression. I developed bladder pain and frequent urination. It freaked me out so I had a urine sample tested and they found traces of a common bacterial infection ( sorry I forget the name of it), gave me a dose of anti biotics and all symptoms resolved in approx 3 days. Have taken low dose ketamine since without any bladder problems. Hope this provides a less scary option to discuss with your GP.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

i was tested for bacterial infections. nothing they said.

 

[Prescottdave]

Cutting out nicotine, caffeine, acidic and spicy foods can help those suffering from IC. I found exercise and glucosamine chondroitin helps immensely. The glucosamine is found in a number of supplements used to treat the disorder. I suffered from IC to the point that my pain level was at an 8 most of the day.

After exercising and cutting out certain foods while implementing a new vitamin regimen used to treat IC I was able to almost completely eliminate most of the pain. I try to stay far away from large doses of K, DXM or DCK.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

Please share your exact vitamin dosing. I did pick up the upplement cysto renew which has GC u mentioned in it.

I'm very sad about stopping spicy curry and RC drugs because of this.