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  • P&S Moderators: Xorkoth | Madness

Human Beings Suck Ass, Basically.

Okay. Usually only anti-social/loner types think that way.

I'd probably be considered anti-social and a loner by most people, but it's because most people (at least in the part of the world I live and exist) exemplify and protrude the general awfulness of humanity, hence what I described when I started this thread. I'm really not anti-social by nature. I like interacting with people...I think it's intrinsic to being human as we are a social species; our survival has always been dependent upon our ability to cooperate in groups. When I am around people who, emotionally and intellectually operate at a sensitivity level which is higher than the average refrigerator hum frequency that characterizes the emotional/intellectual capacity of most humans, I do great.
 
I too am stuck in such a quandary, I truly am a people person, I love people, but i loathe what humanity is doing. It leaves me in an existential crisis of wanting to make the world better for others, and feeling that my efforts are in vain.
 
So was I at one time. I gave it up as a bad deal. I'm almost a full recluse in real life and I really do prefer it. I have a better life without people. I have dogs for company which do not suck ass.
 
What I did was move to a place that has a lot of cool people. Whenever I visit where I grew up, I think to myself that I would probably end up avoiding most people, but today I have a close group of friends who I see some of almost daily, and a wider group of more casual friends, and I meet people all the time that I like. I still feel pessimistic about humanity and I hate what we're doing and I think as a group we're fucking idiots who are destroying the planet and ourselves... but in my local world, things look a lot better. I run into people who make me feel bad very rarely, so much so that it really stands out and shocks me when I do (at least while I'm home, when traveling or visit elsewhere it's a different story). I thank myself every day for deciding to move here, it was scary but it's really had a huge impact on my quality of life.
 
Isn't that what most people do to isolate themselves from the harsher realities? Friends, Family, Religion, Political party, etc.

I moved to my town in the PNW 30 years ago because it was full of cool "nonconformist" hippy types and buddhists. Now I can't stand them lol.
 
humans havent lived like this for very long, in the scheme of things - and there are plenty of people that don't live in developed societies, and aren't destroying the world.

You mean overpopulation and taxing resources causing tribal warfare isn't destroying things? Gee I didn't know that.
 
All I have to say is, you have a choice in the sort of thought paths to continually go down. I've made a choice to see the good in the world, in spite of the bad, I was starting to see only the bad for years and I worked on changing that and my life is far better because of it. There are things worth loathing in the world, but there are a lot of things that are great, too. It took quite a while to not feel like I was burying my head in the sand by choosing to focus on the good things in the world, but now I feel like I was burying my head in the sand choosing to focus only on the bad.

Granted, you've got 30 years on me. But I am quite committed to not succumbing to cynicism. I feel cynical about the state of the world, and humanity in general, but without hope, I miss the chance to enjoy the parts of being human that are great... so I hope. Either way, it's a choice, even if maybe it doesn't feel that way. It's brain training.
 
Good for you. I mean that. My cynicism would be a great thing if it was able to effect change in the world. Which it mostly is not. It may be be honest and true (I'm not the one to say) but of itself it doesn't fix much. Of course in my case it lead to antinatalism which is the most powerful agent of change a human can have to reduce suffering on this strange rock so I'm actually glad for that. I won't bring anyone into this world who will see starvation, war, genocide, disease, depression, drug addiction, physical pain, fear and all the other slings and arrows that bring us to a philosophy forum on a drug site.
 
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I'm not sure if I'm gonna have a kid ever, either. It could happen though, if it was an accident. I'm not willing to make myself unable, because I have this feeling like it's something I want to experience, it's such a huge part of life, reproduction. And I mean my life is great, all things considered, I've had troubles and great times and it's been a good run. But I struggle with it, too, because I think there is a very good chance it's going to get progressively worse for everyone. But I don't think it's inevitable, beyond hope. Just more likely than not, I think. Who's to say that not being born is netter than life? Or if it even works that way? I half hope it happens and I half don't, and I can't really imagine getting to a place where I decide (and my girlfriend decides) to do it on purpose. And I'm about to turn 35 so it's getting on a little bit.

My friend and his girlfriend just found out they're having a baby. They've been together for years and never used protection or were careful at all, and figured they couldn't do it... they weren't trying to either but some part of you must kind of want it to do that. Anyway it's crazy, he went from fully accepting that he would never reproduce to being excited that it's happening. It's pretty wild. My little brother is about to have a baby, too. I'm really excited about it.
 
I want to have a kid. I guess the urge to reproduce is somewhat implacable but as with xorkoth I feel I'm getting towards the point of it happening now or never but it doesn't seem like it will. I would like to imagine that I'd be able to show my child the gentler things but I know the harshness of world would soon encroach.
 
And I mean my life is great, all things considered,


.


We're not talking about your life. You got lucky. Many suffer horribly and they all had parents just like you. Not to mention studies show that humans have a bias towards life being better for them than it actually is. Which makes sense.
 
The urge to reproduce is the cause of all human suffering. No doubts about that. There's many other practical reasons for not having children also but I don't want to stir the pot too vigorously on this issue because humans won't very often use logic or compassion in making these decisions, so antinatalism will always be a tiny fringe group of IMO unusual forms of compassionate humans. A truly rare breed and not part of the herd.
 
All I have to say is, you have a choice in the sort of thought paths to continually go down. I've made a choice to see the good in the world, in spite of the bad, I was starting to see only the bad for years and I worked on changing that and my life is far better because of it. There are things worth loathing in the world, but there are a lot of things that are great, too. It took quite a while to not feel like I was burying my head in the sand by choosing to focus on the good things in the world, but now I feel like I was burying my head in the sand choosing to focus only on the bad.

Granted, you've got 30 years on me. But I am quite committed to not succumbing to cynicism. I feel cynical about the state of the world, and humanity in general, but without hope, I miss the chance to enjoy the parts of being human that are great... so I hope. Either way, it's a choice, even if maybe it doesn't feel that way. It's brain training.

Sorry, this sounds like denial to me. I see no point in doing this and would rather face the reality of the situation. I will say however, that there is hope, but not hope in the possibility of altering my perception, but rather, in altering my perspective. People across the world and time have reported a state of awareness where the whole of life and the world is exactly what it should be and that everything is eternally right, exactly how it is, problems and all.

This is a state that is not the usual, and is entered into by various means, such as ingesting psychedelics, participating in specific activities, or just by pure coincidence. I have experience it myself a few times by various means. If any person has experienced this, they'll know exactly what I'm talking about.

Basically, the world and life are seen as completely and utterly un-problematic. An analogy would be the attitude you have when you see a piece of rotting fruit. You don't say, "there is something wrong with the fruit". You see it as a natural part of the process. The same force that cause the fruit to ripen to perfection is now causing it to decay and that's just the way it is. And basically, that's what is occurring in life, both our own (we grow old and decay) as well as humanity's.

That to me is the only possibility of being "OK" with all of this. Anyone get that?
 
The urge to reproduce is the cause of all human suffering. No doubts about that. There's many other practical reasons for not having children also but I don't want to stir the pot too vigorously on this issue because humans won't very often use logic or compassion in making these decisions, so antinatalism will always be a tiny fringe group of IMO unusual forms of compassionate humans. A truly rare breed and not part of the herd.

I know we're not talking about me, but there are plenty of people who lead happy lives and I think most people (though this is speculation, I can't point to any evidence - so maybe I should say at least "many people") find life to be more good than bad. You say that people with good parents also suffer horribly. Well yeah, some of them do. Some people with horrible parents and traumatic childhoods also grow up to lead great and happy lives. It's up to the individual largely, early influences can have a powerful effect on you but some people work through that stuff and come out the other end, and some people don't. I'm not going to just assume that some future theoretical offspring of mine is going to suffer horribly. Of course they'll suffer sometimes, but hopefully their life is more good than bad. There's a solid chance of it. And hey, you know, my parents and my siblings are all happy people, too. And my parents' parents were, too. I think the chances are much better than average that if I had a kid, they'd have a pretty good life. I know lots of people who are more happy than unhappy.

I know we're not talking about me, we're talking about people in general, but I'm just trying to illustrate that human life is not guaranteed to be miserable, far from it. I think rather than committing species suicide, we should keep working to solve our issues.

"studies show that humans have a bias towards life being better for them than it actually is" - I don't quite get this statement. Perception is reality. If a person feels like their life is good, then it's good. If it feels like it's bad, it's bad. As always, it's a matter of perception. It sounds kind of like you're describing optimism, pessimistically... optimism does improve the quality of your life.

The urge to reproduce is the only reason there is a human experience. Without reproduction, we go extinct. That may be your goal, but I don't think it's at all realistic to expect others to agree with that goal, nor do you find that goal in any other life forms I'm aware of. Or if extinction isn't your goal with antinatalism, then maybe your goal is to just greatly reduce the number of new humans born to help with overpopulation. In which case, how would such a system be regulated? Who gets to have kids?
 
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Sorry, this sounds like denial to me. I see no point in doing this and would rather face the reality of the situation. I will say however, that there is hope, but not hope in the possibility of altering my perception, but rather, in altering my perspective. People across the world and time have reported a state of awareness where the whole of life and the world is exactly what it should be and that everything is eternally right, exactly how it is, problems and all.

This is a state that is not the usual, and is entered into by various means, such as ingesting psychedelics, participating in specific activities, or just by pure coincidence. I have experience it myself a few times by various means. If any person has experienced this, they'll know exactly what I'm talking about.

Basically, the world and life are seen as completely and utterly un-problematic. An analogy would be the attitude you have when you see a piece of rotting fruit. You don't say, "there is something wrong with the fruit". You see it as a natural part of the process. The same force that cause the fruit to ripen to perfection is now causing it to decay and that's just the way it is. And basically, that's what is occurring in life, both our own (we grow old and decay) as well as humanity's.

That to me is the only possibility of being "OK" with all of this. Anyone get that?

I have had this experience, for sure. I mean on some higher level I do believe that's true, because I believe we're the universe experiencing itself and all possible experiences are represented across the entire spectrum of subjective experiencer instances of life. But since I am one of those experiencer instances who is typing this, I have a role to fill. Each life form has an effect on others and in a small way on the sum total as well. If I believe I am supposed to help bring good things to the world, then I can't just sit back and be content with everything going on. There are things I think need to change in order to create better lives for the majority of people, I'm not going to abandon that because having optimism in the face of these struggles seems like denial. The only reason things unfold as they're supposed to is because of the struggles of everyone involved on all sides.

Choosing to have hope despite having a hard time feeling hope is not denial, it's effort to achieve the outcome I desire. Other than for brief moments, I am not "OK" with all of what's going on. But I also don't feel hopeless that we can't get past it, and I am not afraid to still allow myself to enjoy the good parts of life and the good things that are happening. Why would I not allow myself to enjoy them? It does no one any good to just be bitter and angry about things all the time and block myself off from anything good. The world isn't good or bad, it's both. To me, to say the world is all good or all bad is being more in denial than accepting that some things are bad, and some are good, and taking each as they come.
 
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I know we're not talking about me, but there are plenty of people who lead happy lives and I think most people (though this is speculation, I can't point to any evidence - so maybe I should say at least "many people") find life to be more good than bad. You say that people with good parents also suffer horribly. Well yeah, some of them do. Some people with horrible parents and traumatic childhoods also grow up to lead great and happy lives. It's up to the individual largely, early influences can have a powerful effect on you but some people work through that stuff and come out the other end, and some people don't. I'm not going to just assume that some future theoretical offspring of mine is going to suffer horribly. Of course they'll suffer sometimes, but hopefully their life is more good than bad. There's a solid chance of it. And hey, you know, my parents and my siblings are all happy people, too. And my parents' parents were, too. I think the chances are much better than average that if I had a kid, they'd have a pretty good life. I know lots of people who are more happy than unhappy.

I know we're not talking about me, we're talking about people in general, but I'm just trying to illustrate that human life is not guaranteed to be miserable, far from it. I think rather than committing species suicide, we should keep working to solve our issues.

"studies show that humans have a bias towards life being better for them than it actually is" - I don't quite get this statement. Perception is reality. If a person feels like their life is good, then it's good. If it feels like it's bad, it's bad. As always, it's a matter of perception. It sounds kind of like you're describing optimism, pessimistically... optimism does improve the quality of your life.

The urge to reproduce is the only reason there is a human experience. Without reproduction, we go extinct. That may be your goal, but I don't think it's at all realistic to expect others to agree with that goal, nor do you find that goal in any other life forms I'm aware of. Or if extinction isn't your goal with antinatalism, then maybe your goal is to just greatly reduce the number of new humans born to help with overpopulation. In which case, how would such a system be regulated? Who gets to have kids?


That's what I said. I don't expect others to see the benefits of antinatalism. Nor do you seem to know what antinatalism is about if you think it's goal is to reduce the human population to more reasonable numbers. IMO and experience nobody really cares if others are suffering if they are not at the moment. True compassion is the rarest of human qualities, along with respecting the rights of others. If you have a child you force them to live without their consent. My crappy parents never asked me and I've suffered greatly for that supreme act of selfishness. I don't plan on repeating that. YMMV.
 
You can't give consent to be born, though, because you don't exist yet. What if you had happened to become a person who was happy and glad to be alive? Would your parents not have been selfish for choosing to give you life then? Does the potential for a bad experience outweigh the potential for a good experience? Does the potential for endlessly becoming worse and worse as a species invalidate the hope that we might be able to fix ourselves? Are you saying that people who choose to have children are being supremely selfish?

Also, I don't think that just because I don't let the fact that others are suffering and I am not make me feel guilty, and I don't let it turn me cynical, means that I don't really care if other people are suffering. I do care. But it's just like... what are the options? Either I could let it consume me, or I can not let it consume me.

You're definitely entitled to the way you feel by the way, I'm just trying to discuss, not tell you your feelings are wrong. Also you're right I should look up what antinatalism is and not just feel like I can infer it from this conversation.
 
You can't give consent to be born, though, because you don't exist yet. What if you had happened to become a person who was happy and glad to be alive? Would your parents not have been selfish for choosing to give you life then? Does the potential for a bad experience outweigh the potential for a good experience? Does the potential for endlessly becoming worse and worse as a species invalidate the hope that we might be able to fix ourselves? Are you saying that people who choose to have children are being supremely selfish because their child might suffer? What if the child wants to be alive once they grow up? The child can't give consent one way or the other, your parents can't ask you.

IMO and experience nobody really cares if others are suffering if they are not at the moment. True compassion is the rarest of human qualities

I don't think that just because I don't let the fact that others are suffering and I am not make me feel guilty, and I don't let it turn me cynical, means that I don't really care if other people are suffering. I do care. But it's just like... what are the options? Either I could let it consume me, or I can not let it consume me. I just realized I had a choice in what I focus on and I made the choice. Me being fixated on it isn't going to change anything.

You're definitely entitled to the way you feel by the way, I'm just trying to discuss, not tell you your feelings are wrong. Also you're right I should look up what antinatalism is and not just feel like I can infer it from this conversation.
 
Let me ask you this. Let's say there's a 2x4 laid across a pit of horrible things. On the other side of the pit is a pot of gold. Do you think you have the moral right to force someone else to walk across that pit without their consent? Because that's just what you're doing when you choose to bring life into existence without its consent.

Are you saying that people who choose to have children are being supremely selfish because their child might suffer?

Yeah that's what I'm saying in part. All you are saying is "what if" they get lucky. We know for sure anyone you bring into the world is going to suffer to some degree and maybe a lot. Do you think all the BILLIONS of humans who have suffered disease, torture, starvation, depression, mental illness, slavery, were brought into this world by people who thought that was what was going to happen to them? They were so programmed to reproduce they likely didn't even consider it. Everyone thinks they are the lucky one. That's why people volunteer to go to war so easily. The other guy might be killed but not them. If you read books on warfare they even say it.

Don't worry about me friend. I'm not taking anything you say personally. You're just trying to do life the best you can just like I am. You didn't ask to be here and no one gave you a rulebook when you came.
 
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