5htp or tryptophan?

[Inds]

This article says Tryptophan is better than 5-htp because it more readily enters the brain and doesn't produce serotonin at the expense of other neurotransmitters. Anyone know if tryptophan is also more effective at reducing comedowns?
I've been taking 5htp daily the past 3 months to put an end to the damn mood swings and I'm worried about it losing effectiveness because every article states 5htp cant be used long term.

 

[indigoaura]

I used to use 5HTP or Tryptophan religiously after a roll. However, I read some theories that the mood swings after rolling had more to do with down-regulated receptors than with low serotonin. If that is the case, then flooding the brain with more serotonin could cause more issues. So, I stopped using either one and started using high doses of vitamin C and methyl B12. In my opinion, the C and the B12 help me more than either 5HTP or Tryptophan. Give it a try and see if it helps.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

Tryptophan is a protein that you'll be getting in your diet as long as you're eating enough protein, while 5-HTP may not be passing into the brain very well. It tends to be broken down in the periphery very quickly before the brain ever gets a chance to utilize it.

I don't know about daily use of 5-HTP - you may want to consider tapering that off and playing it by ear. It could be doing zilch or it could be unhelpful in the long run. Needing more serotonin is certainly not always the issue.

 

[Inds]

Here's the thing, after my bad roll in June and after quitting Buspar, I've been experiencing mood swings which kept getting worse and worse. By September I became suicidal and the happy peaks were barely above baseline. That's when I started taking 5-HTP daily and it effectively stabilized my mood. No more upswings or downswings. Last month I stopped taking any for 3 full days and I felt really happy for about 2 days before the inevitable downswing followed and I felt suicidal all over again. I wanted to ride it out because I don't wanna be dependent on happy pills my whole life but it got to a point where it was unbearable and I resumed 5-HTP intake. Since then I'm back to baseline.
This is why I'm scared to death about the possibility of 5-HTP no longer working. The existence of Tryptophan and the fact that it can be used long-term comforts me, so I was just wondering why everyone in MDMA circles never talks about it if it's more effective than 5-HTP.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

Tryptophan is a protein that you'll be getting in your diet as long as you're eating enough protein, while 5-HTP may not be passing into the brain very well. It tends to be broken down in the periphery very quickly before the brain ever gets a chance to utilize it.

I don't know about daily use of 5-HTP - you may want to consider tapering that off and playing it by ear. It could be doing zilch or it could be unhelpful in the long run. Needing more serotonin is certainly not always the issue.

is 5=htp just bogus then if it doesn't enter or gets broken down? I swear that I get an effect from it (relaxation, anxiolytic, easy sleep) but Im open to the fact that it could be placebo.

 

[Inds]

It neutralizes my mood swings (which I never experienced in my life prior to using molly) so it definitely does work for me. If it's placebo then it's the most powerful delusion I've experienced in my schizo life.
However, it has no effect on my anxiety which is still out of control.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

is 5=htp just bogus then if it doesn't enter or gets broken down? I swear that I get an effect from it (relaxation, anxiolytic, easy sleep) but Im open to the fact that it could be placebo.

I wouldn't say its bogus but I would say there are a few things to consider

1. Not everything is behind the BBB, and these areas/neurons could better utilize 5-HTP

2. The BBB isn't exactly static or functioning equally across all people and across all areas of the brain

3. Decarboxylation of 5-HTP into 5-HT in the periphery could result in 5-HT binding to areas of the brain/CNS not behind the BBB.

As an example, there are neuroendocrine cells that basically have to project outside of the BBB in order to release e.g. oxytocin into the bloodstream. There are roughly 7 areas considered "circumventricular organs" in the sense that they are not behind the BBB.

There are placebo controlled studies that suggest 5-HTP and L-tryptophan do have real effects though, so your sanity can rest at ease. Especially with regards to enhanced sleep.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

It neutralizes my mood swings (which I never experienced in my life prior to using molly) so it definitely does work for me. If it's placebo then it's the most powerful delusion I've experienced in my schizo life.
However, it has no effect on my anxiety which is still out of control.

There were some papers suggesting that oral 5-HTP may be able to result in "ectopic" serotonin production inside of dopaminergic neurons, therefore decreasing dopamine release. I'm not sure how psuedoscientific that is, but there was a study in humans that suggested 5-HTP lowered the activity of dopamine neurons.

Anti-dopaminergic drugs such as atypical anti-psychotics do see use in treating disorders with mood swings such as bipolar, and considering your schizo related issues (schizophrenia being treated with anti-dopaminergics) it makes sense that if 5-HTP is decreasing your dopamine release, that could be one reason why it may be helping.

However, one of the concerns with chronically elevated peripheral 5-HT is fibrosis of things like the heart. 5-HT is intimately involved in scar tissue/fibrosis, and its possible that years of daily 5-HTP could increase your risk for developing something like valvular heart disease. But its entirely your life, and if 5-HTP is controlling your mood swings when other things like atypical antipsychotics and mood stabilizers have failed, then I could understand how you would consider it the lesser of two evils.

CY

 

[Inds]

Hi Cotcha, thanks for the useful information. You guys are indispensable.

Yes, just a few days ago I read in that article that 5-HTP increases serotonin at the expense of other neurotransmitters and is bad to use long term. That's why I wanna get off it and move on to L-Tryptophan. But I'm confused because if serotonin is converted from 5-htp and 5-htp is converted from tryptophan, then why would there be a difference?

I've never had mood swings until I started using molly (or buspirone, i'm not sure which caused it), the only schizo-related issues I dealt with throughout my life have been aloofness, anxiety and paranoia. But it's interesting that 5-htp as a dopamine-agonist might be balancing my mood. The reason I stick with a supplement is because I don't wanna tinker with my brain in the more complex ways that all those psychotropics and SSRIs do. The fact that it's sold OTC comforted me, because every single prescription medication I took fucked me up and made me worse, the Buspar being the latest. I tell the doc I'm anxious and he prescribes me something that has "anxiety" on the side effects. You can't get more useless than that.
I don't wanna take anything daily for life but the downswings I experience are really bad and I'm unable to function properly at work during them. I haven't self-harmed or attempted suicide so call me a pussy for not being able to handle them but I just can't. Having a wide emotional range is a very new thing to me and it isn't as great as I thought it would be.

 

[Tranced]

Yes, just a few days ago I read in that article that 5-HTP increases serotonin at the expense of other neurotransmitters and is bad to use long term. That's why I wanna get off it and move on to L-Tryptophan. But I'm confused because if serotonin is converted from 5-htp and 5-htp is converted from tryptophan, then why would there be a difference?

5-htp is probably somewhat active in its own right, I'd imagine. It's not just a case of 5-htp = more serotonin = feel better. It's like with pro-drugs; they're often not exactly like the thing they supposedly convert into.

A good example using a vitamin (so a bit more relatable) is vitamin b3/niacin aka nicotinic acid. It causes a full body flush akin to eating chilli peppers and has numerous documented pharmacological properties; people sometimes use it for depression/anxiety.

A lot of companies sell a 'flushless' form of 'niacin' which is actually the chemical niacinamide. It's still considered vitamin b3, yet given that it doesn't cause any flush I'd imagine that this is clear cut evidence that your body is reading it as something else, and that the pharmacological properties are entirely different from those of niacin itself. Similarly, 4-AcO-DMT converts to psilocin, yet it is widely considered a completely different experience.

You just need to find whatever works for you really. Try Tryptophan and if that works for you, then great. If not, switch back to the 5-htp.

 

[Inds]

So the vitamin B3 drug causes the full body flush because of the different mechanism used to convert it to vitamin B3? I do remember that ecstasy itself causes your body to flood itself with serotonin while eating a bottle of serotonin pills will not produce the same high because your body won't even absorb most of that crap you ate. Chemistry is indeed complicated and interesting. If my attention span wasn't shit I would learn a lot more about this.

But what is the consensus on this community about tryptophan versus 5-htp?

 

[Tranced]

They are both considered vitamin b3, to my knowledge. But only one causes the flush. It has other properties such as positive effects on cholesterol fat. But people sell a chemical with evidently different properties as if it is the same chemical.

I'd imagine peoples views as to which is best widely differ depending on what they are taking. I've noticed zero effect on mood from 5-htp.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

But what is the consensus on this community about tryptophan versus 5-htp?

Taking 5-HTP and supplementing L-tryptophan is fairly different, that much is certain. L-tryptophan is easily found in supplement/health stores so it should be easy to try it.