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What is the cause of up regulation of receptors?

lemonman

Bluelighter
Joined
Sep 17, 2017
Messages
53
I asked about TAAR being involved and no one said it was.

There are many reports of amphetamine & MDMA upregulating receptors using micro doses..
Can you guys explain how and messing around with microdosing is sometimes like a higher than normal dose?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2440058

Unfortunately all I have are anecdotes, which can be unreliable at times. One acquaintance of mine swears by it, though. He would take 20-30mg as a primer dose the day before. I think some people were talking about it on either bluelight or drugs-forum too.

I'm not too sure of taking it [MDMA] a few days before, but I once took a small amount at around 11am, didn't feel much apart from a little bit of jitters and chattiness... then at around 6pm took the same amount and I started rolling hard! I was grinding my teeth, unable to sit still, eye wobbles, slight visual distortion, ridiculous empathy! haha, great experience, but have no idea why


took 1mg Adderall (honestly probably less than 1mg). I got really motivated and accomplished more studying than I had in weeks. I took another 1 mg (probably less) 2 hours later when the motivation was wearing down. I got the same effect for several more hours. I took another 1 mg around mid-day (maybe a little later). I should not have done that. It's 5.17 pm here right now. I felt like I had taken the largest dose of Adderall I have ever taken before (and I have taken up to 100mg in times of final exams.) I was extremely irritable for the past 2-3 hours and had an extreme amount of energy. My chest was very tight and I just felt crazy, like I overdosed.


Tests in human subjects has shown that after been given a low dosage of Amphetamine, the subjective high rating from a large dose of Amphetamine has nearly doubled. In rats, dopaminergic supersensitivity from low-dosage stimulant exposure lasts at least 12 days, and in primates, this hypersensitivity been demonstrated to last at least 2.5 years postwithdrawal.
 
I can't comment on the anecdotes since each person's unique genome and epigenome strongly affect the clinical response to amphetamine; however, I think it's much more likely that the sensitization effects mentioned by those studies are associated with altered intra-neuronal protein expression and/or function, as opposed to altered expression/function of cell surface receptors.
 
1-10 mg per kg is not 2 times per day is not a microdose im a bit confused. Also i dont understand what the ape study has to do with microdosing.

If anything what id guess is that reasonable doses of amphetamine increase sensitivity to reasonable doses of amphetamine.
 
At low doses, amph causes motor sensitization in rats. They're rats, so you don't have a lot of outputs. You give them speed, they run around faster. Afterward, you give them speed, and they start running around sooner than they used to. It's behavioral sensitization, and it's probably the same way you do a big "yeaaaaaahhhhh!!" after a line of coke, before it has even reached your bloodstream.

Too much amph fries your brain, or at least, it does to rats. This paper instead slowly tapered the rat doses and found the rats were still sensitized (but not at night) without getting their brains fried, at the final high dose. Really not that profound.

They started the rats at 1-10mg/kg and ended at 20mg/kg. So the high-end dose for me would be over 1.2 grams of pure d-amphetamine sulphate for four days straight, just the tail end of a 42 day run that started at over 60mg/day. So a really bad downward spiral for a kid abusing his Adderall.

I don't know the mechanism of that hypersensitization, but it only sounds like the anticipation you might feel after taking extra Adderall and waiting for it to hit.

Meanwhile, I learned you can decapitate a rat and remove the brain in under thirty seconds.

EDIT: forgot the best part, all of the rats in that paper were female, and the researchers were all confused caused the rats didn't run around at night like the usual tweaker-rats do. So they talk about sex differences in motor function. They probably avoided male rats cause they just try to hump each other all night long.
 
So the point is, ?subjectively? low doses sensitize receptors. Basically they will adjust to get the most out of the low dose. That makes sense.

So if I was taking a solid higher dose of dextroamphetamine for a while, I would take a medication vacation, but instead of a cold turkey break, I would take a small amount 2.5 mg to 5 mg while I was on my break.

Does this make sense. Obliviously, working out and nutrition would be a major part.

Not trying to be OT, but I think this is a decent example.

I am all about microdosing.
 
SUMMARY: Using a little bit of drug does not make those feel-good or high-feeling receptors increase in number. Either before or after.

From the paper: (started this analogy yesterday, should maybe have kept it) I think it's more like if you had never had spicy food, and put a little squirt of tobasco on your food, you'd find it enhanced the experience. The next time you put it on your food you drool before you even eat--your behavior shows you're sensitized to the smell. Maybe you stomp your feet in anticipation. But if you were then given half a bottle on your enchilada, you would throw up and cry and the snot would pour.

If instead you gradually increase the tobasco dose, you find you continue to drool when you smell it, but by the time you get to half-bottle territory, you don't vomit or scream.

The sensitization has less to do with regulation of receptors in response to amphetamine, and more about readouts for researchers. The sensitization is in a tiny part of a tiny brain region involved with motion, it's not something that happens for every dopamine process, I don't think.

Using my analogy, the researchers chose foot stomping to readout sensitization. Conveniently, it uses the same transmitter your tongue does for pain. That means if it's too hot on your tongue, it'll blow out those nerves, AND the nerves that move your feet. As long as the feet are moving, they know your tongue is OK. So when they ramp up to high doses, you still stomp your feet, showing you everything is as it should be, and not fried. That's it, see? Why do they need pages of this stuff? I think it matters for researchers who give speed to rats, and that's it. But it's important for us to have, mainly so we can criticize the papers where people gave speed to rats and didn't taper up the massive doses, like this paper told them to.

That's in the paper. For the anecdotes, the paper does not support anything like what was mentioned. They are NOT describing potentiation of later doses by small doses. If anything the paper describes diminished effects by taking smaller doses earlier in time. The sensitization they described is to behavior associated with anticipating the drug (it involves receptors too). Forever on now, I will catch the occasional odor of dollar bill and flashback to cocaine days. That means a tiny tiny physiological change, slight quickening of my heart beat, in response to a drug association I had years ago. I am sensitized to cocaine. But if I got a baggie tonight, it wouldn't make a difference if I did a little bump and saved the rest for Monday on the quality or intensity of the high.

So really this paper doesn't help us end-user druggies any. The feeling we like from our drugs uses receptors, and too much will make the receptors go down in number. Using a little bit of the drug does NOT make those receptors increase in number. The rest of our brain has thoughts about drugs, and those use transmitters and receptors too, but thinking about cocaine won't make all the cocaine-thought receptors go down in number. In fact, using a little bit of cocaine will make the cocaine-thought receptors increase a whole lot. But not the ones that respond to the actual drug. Sadly.

There's a flip-side that might relate to drug breaks. Because you are sensitized to a drug, going to zero might be better than doing a small amount. Getting that whiff of drug cues strong reactions, in anticipation; and if your drug-feeling receptors are where they were, they won't feel the small dose, get angry, and then you relapse. So sensitization is part of why abstinence for a long time is often best.
 
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