Question about opioid euphoria and tolerance

[Melena]

A question - on average, how long does the euphoria associated with opiates last? With irregular use (not ever long enough to experience withdrawal despite up to 2 week breaks) tolerance has increased, but do the waves of euphoria ever go away?
thanks,
Melena

 

[Scrofula]

I think it was Poet Laureate Patrick Swayze who said, "Stay gold, Ponyboy." He was referring to the observation that nothing gold can last. It's not the best observation, since gold is actually admired for its ability to resist oxidation, but it might as well be applied to the golden euphoria of amber-tinted drugs.

I think it's universal that whatever it is that gave you a thrill, after a few great thrills, it just won't be as thrilling ever again. That's more to do with psychology and the biases of human memory than some molecular property of a drug, or even the government and cartels swapping out your drug with isopropylbenzylamine.

There's also a probabilistic aspect, since across a lifetime of drug use, there is only going to be a single "best" experience, and all subsequent and prior ones will be compared against it, all unfavorably. Therefore, any new encounter, after the first, is going to be compared to the best experience so far, and the odds of it being better go down with each use. Gradually a string of unfavorable encounters is produced. The only time when you are guaranteed to have the best experience is the first time you use it.

Over time those waves of euphoria will subside into ripples of pleasantness, and on to a light splash of better-than-nothing. How long that takes is up to your mind, and no can predict when you'll get over it. But everyone does eventually.

 

[Melena]

So there is no way to prolong the party so to speak? Drug holidays?
While I agree in theory of "the best experience" of whatever it is you are experiencing, i have difficulty categorizing things that way. The best meal? Depends on how hungry i am. The best holiday? Depends on the criteria. Prob same with substances. But biologically i find it difficult to believe the experience would just end. The reward system is a biologic necessity; seems odd it could be burned out. Also seems if that occurred, there would be no euphoria from anything - sex, exercise, music, whatever.
thoughts?
Melena

 

[Scrofula]

There's a lot of semantics and perspective involved. When I hear "waves of euphoria" I think of very special events, and I'm also colored by all the IV meth users around who seem universally disappointed after even a short break. Other drug users with different ROAs don't experience waves of euphoria to such a degree and might have more complex and circumstantial experiences that evolve differently over time.

My analogy was less about the best batch of carnitas you've ever had, than expectations ruining subjective experiences. You can't expect something like your first orgasm, because you have no concept of it. So the first one is pretty memorable. The rest you actually expect. If there's nothing else to make each one unique, they'll become mundane, even if you still enjoy them.

If every orgasm had identical waves of euphoria no one would need to cheat on spouses or even leave the house. So it's a bit like Cantor and his proof that some infinities are bigger than others. Not all "waves of euphoria" across a person's lifetime are the same as others, even if "waves of euphoria" is as high as you can be.

That actually makes the plight of IV drug users worse, since it suggests an active process might exist to seek out larger infinities, and you can't really try different positions with your needles or seek out new syringes to cheat on.

There is less a reward system in biology, I think, than a reinforcement system. It may run like a kids tricycle, pushing us to our goals and ringing the little bell when we reach one. It's built to last a lifetime. Humans found drugs, though, that can bypass the pedals and stick a jackhammer on that bell, ringing until it shatters, and we notice we haven't been pedaling in a long time. It's not something our brains evolved to handle.

 

[rafilla]

my experience with tramadol 100 mg, i went to the doctor for my annual physical, and i complaint about my knees and i ask if i can get something for the pain, and his answer was, "loose some weight" it'll help a lot, not that i haven't tried to loose some weight, but i'm big bone and i like to eat,and my excuse is that i've seen a lot more overweight over obese people than me, so i started taking tylenol but that doesn't work, i remember a drug that my dentist prescribed when he pulled my wisdom teeth,(norco) and one of my trips to tijuana i ask for that and the pharmacist offer something much better than that, that's how i meet tramadol 100 mg, i love them, took the pain out of my knees and get lightly high and in a much better mood, so i found myself making every little excuse to take my pill, i've been doing this for a few months now........being the smart guy that i am i told myself if one is good 2 must be much much better. this is what i do, i took 2 100 mg pills after breakfast and that's it for the day, but i know now this wasn't very smart, i'm concern about my liver and other side effects, so i want to stop, and the first day i didn't take it, my body was craving it, i had symptoms of severe cold, chills and can't stop thinking about that pink pill, so i gave in, i and i told to my self, well if i am going to get a bad habit this is the ideal one, is cheap and i can get it anywhere, but my body developed a tolerance to those 2 pills that i take every day after breakfast and i want more.
So if anybody reading this, hope you're a lot smarter than me and pay attention of what the doctor say and not take or prescribe yourself what you think it'll help.
There is a reason why they call them "control substances", that is why we have this problem with a lot people, including myself with these kind of medication.
I'm having withdrawals now, and while i write this, tossing on the toilet my left over pills and willing to beat this craving.

 

[Melena]

Do drug holidays work to reduce tolerance?

 

[Scrofula]

Taking a break for a while is the only way to lower drug tolerance. Whether it works or not depends on where you're from: an American holiday on a long weekend would be way too short to make much difference. German vacations for the whole month of August would have more success (and somehow they still have days left over, the bastards).

 

[Melena]

Do drug holidays help bring euphoria back at the lower dose? Or is this why ppl OD?

 

[Scrofula]

They can, and that's why people do them. They don't always work, though, and people OD for lots of reasons.

Steady drug habits usually result in tolerance, which means you need more for the same effects. But the effects don't always change at the same rate, either. Again, we're getting into the meaning of "euphoria" and which effects you're after.

A meth user may lose any euphoric feeling by his third re-dose of a session, but the drug still keeps him wired. It takes more each time as he gets more sleep-deprived, but he hasn't really developed tolerance yet. He's just depleted reserves of brain chemicals and needs to let them build back up (something that's a lot faster than some MDMA users think).

If it turns into a daily habit, he'll need more and more each day just to feel anything; and he probably hasn't felt any euphoria in a long time. The receptors involved have slowly shifted trying to find a new equilibrium, and his brain chemicals are chronically depleted. That's the tolerance people usually mean.

Taking a break will force his brain back to the equilibrium he had without the drug, which takes time and usually isn't pleasant. Taking breaks before the adaptations happen help prevent tolerance from becoming so severe it can cause withdrawal (and wastes more money).

Some people take long breaks and then find it just isn't as euphoric as they remember. There's no good explanation, and no good fix for that. And some people underestimate just how bad their tolerance was before a break and how much lower it is after. They take what looks like a modest dose, but it turns out to be way too big and they OD. I think that's common with parolees. But then, there are lots of reasons people OD, and misjudging their tolerance is only one of them.

 

[Tubbs]

Another important thing to remember is it will never be as good again as the 1st time. No matter what you do.

 

[Melena]

Thanks for all the insight. Don't like the amswers but appreciate the help. ��

 

[Melena]

Re-reading the above - curious as to what others feel with the opiates? I describe waves of euphoria but maybe thats not accurate. In the beginning, was like having an orgasm (cusp of red really) for hours. Not exactly like that anymore but can still feel waves of...something. Is this not what everyone feels? I was told once that not everyone gets the same experience - obviously if codeine makes you vomit you will be unlikely to try it again. Am i one of the "lucky" ones?
opiates are my only drug experience so nothing to compare it to.
thanks

 

[Tubbs]

I just get a warm feeling, no tingling, no real euphoria, just comfortable.

 

[Rexeh]

I once started out with Tramadol and Paracetamol (APAP) in the form of Zaldiar, which consisted of 37,5 mg Tramadol IR and 325 mg APAP. I fucking loved those pills and even kept a log every day for about a year back in 2008 when I first got Opiates prescribed for a serious chronic illness (Scheuermann's Disease, which involves degerenation of the bone, bone marrow, etc.). Ahhh those sweet days where 150 mg of Tramadol was enough to make me nod and have waves of euphoria for hours and sometimes even falling asleep from the nod, only to be awoken by concerned parents... 8)

Then i needed something better as time progressed... so I got 50 mg Tramadol IR and 100 mg Tramadol SR/ER + Codeine phosphate (sp?) 8 mg x 10 pills a day and had my Tramadol maxed out at 400 mg, which is about the seizure threshold (Harm Reduction at it's finest, eh BL moderators? ) which made ways for more and better nods because I also got scripted 30 mg of Diazepam and 1 mg of Clonazepam for GAD/SAD and 10 mg Temazepam 'yellies' for chronic insomnia so imagine my excitement when the next step was Oxycodone blue 5 mg OxyContin (original OC formula) x 6 = 30 mg of Oxycodone a day... a now I sit here with 40 mg Oxycodone pills which mean virtually nothing to me anymore like they used to but I NEED THEM! :x So you can imagine what I've been through, not going to go into details because you can simply read this forum or any of the megathreads on it to find similir stories. I too started IV'ing heroin, meth, becasically anything that I can get my hands on, for now it is 10 x 40 mg of Oxycodone + 4 x 8 mg Suboxone + 4-MethylEthylCathinone + Methampethamine intranasal or parachuted (usually an 8ball - 3.5 grams here - lasts me a month, where in the past I would IV it all in one day + take Heroin or even Dillies (Hydromorphone) on the comedown aka shadow ppl land or need to sleep zone, whichever you prefer) + some great sex with a couple of great friends (girls + guys can be normal friends and can have great sex once in a while yes indeed you read that right ) while coming up on DXM / DXO (DXM Polistirex). so in the end life gives and mostly takes IMHO but I prefer to think of it as karma as well, gotcha?


-- Peace o/

 

[Scrofula]

Re-reading the above - curious as to what others feel with the opiates? I describe waves of euphoria but . . .

I'd call it a head and body buzzing sensation. It's not pleasant, sometimes it's irritating. I can tolerate things around me a bit easier, except for loud noises. My nose itches. There are no waves, it is constant, unchanging. Like a tube amp hum, kind of alarming at first, then fades into bass-heavy white noise.

Never experienced euphoria with opiates, not even really pleasure. Contentment? No, cause I can get actually agitated. I'd call it acquiescence, acceptance, surrender, something like that. Relief.

Somehow though, I eat them at every opportunity.

so in the end life gives and mostly takes IMHO but I prefer to think of it as karma as well, gotcha?

I'm glad you've survived your Drug Addicts Journey so far (and retain some nostalgia). Your post made me think, here's another case where I take simple things for granted, like being able to stand up for long periods. I can sort of stand up straight, and here I am at the keyboard with my back humped like a cat.

 

[svacheme3]

Do drug holidays help bring euphoria back at the lower dose? Or is this why ppl OD?

I took a 1 year break (jail) and sure enough when I got out, my tolerance was back to 0 and 30mg oxy got me wrecked. But then it took a mere 72 hours to get back to needing 150mg to get the same effect.

 

[Melena]

I took a 1 year break (jail) and sure enough when I got out, my tolerance was back to 0 and 30mg oxy got me wrecked. But then it took a mere 72 hours to get back to needing 150mg to get the same effect.

That's what i am afraid of. So sometimes tolerance to side effects (resp depression especially) goes down but tolerance to effect does not.
the brain remembers. That's not fair.

 

[Melena]

I'd call it a head and body buzzing sensation. It's not pleasant, sometimes it's irritating. I can tolerate things around me a bit easier, except for loud noises. My nose itches. There are no waves, it is constant, unchanging. Like a tube amp hum, kind of alarming at first, then fades into bass-heavy white noise.

Never experienced euphoria with opiates, not even really pleasure. Contentment? No, cause I can get actually agitated. I'd call it acquiescence, acceptance, surrender, something like that. Relief.

Somehow though, I eat them at every opportunity.


Why would you take them if they dont make you feel good? I tried Soma once and it was just awful; would never try that again. I would not be where i am now if the opiates didnt make me feel wonderful.

 

[Scrofula]

Why would you take them if they dont make you feel good? I tried Soma once and it was just awful; would never try that again. I would not be where i am now if the opiates didnt make me feel wonderful.

Well, unless it's after a long night in the drunk tank, cigarettes don't do anything for me either. They were last useful as an undergrad twenty years ago, but I just rolled one.

Most of the meth I smoke is just to keep me awake, so I can get through Day Four of a session (if I went to bed at 2pm and slept for ten hours, people might gossip).

Chocolate sugar things, which besides being bad for my diabetus, actually prevent me from rescheduling with the doctor--cause I know my A1C score will have gone up, you see, and the doctor will frown at me--provide nothing really in the ten seconds it takes to eat.

Over five years of license suspension, eighteen months of DUI classes, ten thousand plus dollars in costs, and I was knowingly over the limit within six months of restored license.

I'm with you, took Soma once and just barfed. Benzos do nothing until they black me out. But I would take both if you offered them right now.

Cause people are not rational creatures, and addictions are defined by being irrational. It's easy when it's a chemical, because you can say it hits its various receptors and puts a "this is essential for your survival" flag on whatever it was, and if it's booze, well it pickles the very lobes that do the reasoning. But it carries through to all behavior. No one has a clue.