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Is drug dealing unethical/immoral?

I think it's because the infra-structure of society is such a nasty place that ppl seek pleasure to a point they injest poison. If the world was not so corrupt, if it wasnt them against them against them, so that some people can have everything and the rest have nothing. If instead ppl worked co-operatively they would achieve more than they do working competitively while destroying each other. And then in such a world, a world full of pleasure and not hell, why would you need to turn to poisons to do it for you?
But they don't want to fix the world or help anyone, they think they can make a short cut by banning this or that from the people they control - brutally at that.
They can't.
 
Selling cigarettes and alcohol is immoral for the same reasons.
But banning a substance that people depend on and that criminals can produce didn't work, just like the war on drugs doesn't work.
There needs to be a different approach, they should address the issues that lead ppl to injest poisons in the first place by helping them, not going against them to try and lock them away.
Its also immoral to take away the crutch someone uses to stand before you've built them a new leg.

Why is it immoral to sell a harmful product if it's to people completely aware of the dangers? It would be different if you were somehow responsible for them choosing to try it in the first place but with modern advertising bans even that responsibilities virtually gone..

Personally, among other reasons I hate this line of thinking is I feel it defers proper responsibility. I am the one responsible for any harm that comes to be for by being a smoker. By saying the person who sells them to be or the tobacco company is somehow behaving in an immoral way is tantamount to taking away my responsibility and by extention saying I shouldn't be held fully accountable because.. What? I'm too stupid? Too immature? I dunno but I'm an adult and I don't agree with the idea that anyone's got any responsibility for say, my smoking except for me. And if they aren't responsible then they aren't acting immorally by selling them to me. If they're acting in an immoral way to do so then that implies they have some level of responsibility for my addiction and I don't agree with that at all.

Same for illegal drugs too. The dealers are providing something I want. They didn't force me to try it, no body did. My sources are in no way responsible, I am..

I don't see how the two concepts can be separated, either they are acting immorally, which means they share in the responsibility for my habit and thus responsibility is not entirely mine. Or responsibility is entirely mine and their behavior isn't immoral.

And I believe the responsibility is entirely mine. They were my choices, nobody advertised it to me. Nobody made me do it.

There may be some extent to which that is true, when you start considering things like abuse histories and escapism and things like that, in which case at least in some instances there may be some truth to it, but even then it's still not the dealers and sellers who have any responsibility and I still think it's a bad habit to get into to look for anyone else to blame.

I do think tobacco companies do behave in an immoral way by say, their actions in trying to argue against the truth of tobacco harms in the past, by targeting the third world, by continuing to advertise in countries they're allowed too. All of these things are immoral. Advertising is immoral because it's an attempt to influence people into starting.

But in places where they can't do that, where all they so is supply it to the willing, as with drug dealers, I don't see it as immoral at all.

EDIT: Id also like to say something about the word poison. Like the word toxic, I really hate it when people use either of those words. Because most people in using them are just showing their ignorance of chemistry and how it works and are using the words in a way that is basically playing politics and advertising.

I for one would much prefer people just confine themselves to describing the realities in an unbiased way, using the word poison or saying something is toxic which is arguably a little worse, it's emotionally and politically loaded and often very dubious. It usually carries a false implication. There are appropriate uses of the words, when the meaning is indisputable and there is widespread consensus on the meaning, but most situations aren't that.

But alas I know most people will keep doing it anyway, I just wanted to mention my feelings on the topic.

I'm not so frustrated by the description of some of the chemicals in tobacco smoke being toxic or poisonous, more so the former but on the whole that's a fair assessment. But referring to pretty much any other drug by those labels including alcohol, and nicotine is getting highly dubious. As all those compounds have legitimate uses. And if something is poisonous or toxic that usually implies there is no legit medical purpose.

Just a pet peeve of mine.
 
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It's immoral (imo) to cause harm to other ppl that havn't harmed you first/that don't deserve it. The greater the harm the more immoral, a lesser harm a lesser moral transgression. I use the word immoral to encompass all the levels of causing unjust harm from mild to extreme so don't think it's like a "you are the absolute worst person ever" kind of judgement, it's just a judgement that I think it's immoral, all ppl act immoral at times in certain situations but I think the goal should be to be aware and honest about it and try to do better.

I think it's immoral to sell a harmful product to ppl purely because it harms them and on a basic level profiting from hurting ppl is "evil". I don't think it makes any difference if they know or not because that assumes someone who knows its bad for them would say no and if they dont say no that they somehow *deserve* harm.

Lots of ppl can't say no because they're addicted. Or because it's the only thing they have to look forward to after the shitty grind of life through the week, sometimes ppl can't say no because they've been severely abused for years and its the only way they can stand to stay alive, or they have a mental illness, or maybe they know the risks but don't believe it would happen to them (a lot of younger ppl have this mentality, they can't imagine addiction its something happens to others not them). There are so many reasons that someone doesn't say no that I don't think make them deserving of harm. I don't think that if a person consents to being harmed that in any way justifies causing them harm. Like if someone tells me they want me to kill and eat them I have their consent, but it's still wrong to go ahead and kill them. I'm just using that extreme example because I think it's clearer to understand the principal I operate under that way, when the variables are more subtle it can be harder to tell whats immoral. A person inflicting harm is responsible for the harm they inflict, especially if they don't need to inflict harm for their own survival but are just doing it for fun or for greed, less if there were mitigating circumstances on their own side that forced them to have to override their conscience and harm others in this way in order to live. Then the forces behind those circumstances and the people controlling those forces share in the blame.
 
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Well the way I see it, what people deserve is totally irrelivent. You aren't harming the person by selling them the harmful product and it's not your job or responsibility to be a nanny for other people or save them from themselves.

If it's a child that's different, but adults are responsible for themselves and I don't feel the seller has any moral culpability at all provided the buyer knows the risks. Even addicted, that's still not the sellers fault. The seller didn't make them do anything. It's not the seller doing harm to the buyer, the buyer is harming themselves. It's not the sellers job to protect them nor should it be if you ask me.

What people deserve doesn't come into it at all.

It's different if you advertise to people, then you do have a small level of culpability. But that isn't the case here.

The other thing I don't like about is I can't see how you can separate the concept that the seller is behaving in an immoral way from the concept that by saying that you're also saying the seller shares some if the responsibility for the buyer harming themselves. You're saying that the buyer is partially correct in saying "it's not all my fault, you should also blame the person who gave it to me". And I don't accept that as a valid suggestion to even the smallest extent.

That's how I see it.
 
Refraining from providing someone with poison to administer to themselves is not being a "nanny" for someone imo, it's just not giving poison to someone.
If they were running around in your life nannying your decisions then sure your point would be taken, but it's their own action I'm holding them to account for.
I'm not holding them responsible for you agreeing, I'm holding them responsible for their own action in supplying, in giving someone poison to take and taking money for it.

I can go ahead and hold the buyer responsible for their side in the exchange too. What was their side? Their side was giving someone money, and taking a poison hurting themself - not an immoral act to give someone money or to harm ones own self, just sad. Maybe they also hurt innocent others though, if so they'd be responsible for the harm they inflicted on those others, and that is an immoral act.

Everyone is responsible for their own actions.
 
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And..
Just because I don't think the buyer acted immorally buy hurting themself, doesn't mean I don't think they should exam their own actions too and try to stop hurting themselves.
You seem to be trying to make the exchange (between two ppl) a responsibility of only one of those two, saying it's the buyers responsibility. I think both parties are responsible for their own part in it.
I'm not saying the buyer is helpless they can also try to do better but the motivation wouldn't be to be a more moral person if they're not hurting anyone but themselves, the motivation would be that hurting sucks and they would want to not hurt.

I think there's a responsibility of the state to provide effective and accessible rehab so that if an addict takes responsibility they can go and make a change. I think it's the states responsibility also to make life not so shit for ppl so they dont turn to substance abuse to begin with because they control most of the predetermining circumstances that lead ppl there. If you're controlling the system (the real nanny) you'd need to be controlling it so that everyone can be free to do well not so that you can hold others down. Whether they have right to act as nanny to begin with is debatable tho, another system could be better, less authoritative more collaborative.
 
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There's also your conscience which should tell you it's immoral.
I imagine myself with a whole bunch of drugs I think "shit I could sell these and make a lot of money", but if I bother to think about the impact to others, that the result for other ppl is that they're developing an addiction, worsening their poverty, committing crimes to others to get the money. Then, you know, empathy for the sufferring of those ppl makes me go "No, this is not right". I might still do it, but I would feel in my heart guilt for the sufferring radiating outwards into society from my actions of selling them.

I think if youre going to be a drug dealer like repeatedly deal drugs for years and years, and you don't want to feel that guilt and lack of self respect (who does?), you will rationalise it to yourself like hey they consented to it so the fact that Im looking at a shivering mal-nourshied scatterbrained mess trying to hand me money for poison instead of working a career that contributes positively to society is their own fault not mine and go ahead and give them more poison, and promote the idea even amongst my buyers that its wholly their own fault and not mine while I count everyones money up in my hands.
But honestly that makes me feel sick to my stomach. I'm not sure I could do that. I certainly wouldnt want to if any other option for my survival existed.
 
Shat about people that just sell drugs like weed, or mushrooms? Or alcohol?
 
I see you took my point about the word poison and went "okies, I'll use it TWICE as often then". Apart from the fact I still don't agree, that alone is frustrating enough to make me disregard most of your post.

Look, that's how you see it, fine. But sorry I still don't agree with it. I don't think you can separate it. If you consider the seller selling it to be immoral then I still see that as reducing the culpability of the buyer. I don't buy most of this argument because, among other reasons the buyer will always find someone to sell it to them or some way to get what they want.

If we're talking about tobacco and I'm not entirely sure cause you keep using a word as ambiguous as poison. But if we are, then I guess the culpability is on the people who sell me my cigarettes. Which are mostly 15~ year old girls working as cashiers at the store next to the pharmacy where I buy them after getting my methadone most of the time.

Bad immoral little girls!

Actually they did refuse to sell it to me once cause I didn't have ID. Which given I'm 29 strikes me as a little excessive. And given they're 15 strikes me as a little crazy bullshit. But then it is Australia.
 
EDIT: Id also like to say something about the word poison. Like the word toxic, I really hate it when people use either of those words. Because most people in using them are just showing their ignorance of chemistry and how it works and are using the words in a way that is basically playing politics and advertising.

I for one would much prefer people just confine themselves to describing the realities in an unbiased way, using the word poison or saying something is toxic which is arguably a little worse, it's emotionally and politically loaded and often very dubious. It usually carries a false implication. There are appropriate uses of the words, when the meaning is indisputable and there is widespread consensus on the meaning, but most situations aren't that.

The ancient Greek word "Pharmakon" (translitterated) means poison, and "Pharmakeia" means medicine, and from that word, in a few steps in Latin and French, the English language derives "Pharmacy", "Pharmacist" etc.
Personally, I do agree with the saying "it is the dose that makes the poison"
 
I dislike your use of the word "poison" synonymously with drugs, Libby. Not all drugs are poisons. Altering consciousness has been a part of humanity since before civilization. Psychedelics have provided me with some of the most valuable experiences of my life, I wouldn't be who I am today without them. Even drugs that can be poisonous/toxic when used incorrectly can be valuable when used correctly.

Do you believe caffeine is a poison? How about antidepressants? How about ibuprofen? In fact antidepressants and ibuprofen are far more toxic than some recreational drugs.

Using the word "poison" to describe drugs just further demonizes them and creates hysteria among those who don't know anything about the subject... which, as you pointed out, is not what we need.
 
I dislike your use of the word "poison" synonymously with drugs, Libby. Not all drugs are poisons. Altering consciousness has been a part of humanity since before civilization. Psychedelics have provided me with some of the most valuable experiences of my life, I wouldn't be who I am today without them. Even drugs that can be poisonous/toxic when used incorrectly can be valuable when used correctly.

Do you believe caffeine is a poison? How about antidepressants? How about ibuprofen? In fact antidepressants and ibuprofen are far more toxic than some recreational drugs.

Using the word "poison" to describe drugs just further demonizes them and creates hysteria among those who don't know anything about the subject... which, as you pointed out, is not what we need.

I agree with Xorkoth 100%, I wouldn't even call pharmaceuticals drugs as drug as a word has a really bad heritage. Medication or Pharmaceutical are better substitutes for drug. The dose makes the poison. ARSENIC and SELENIUM are beneficial in microdoses whereas any dose of them larger than few milligrams will kill you acutely and horribly.
Tez
 
Drug dealing is probably both justifyable and immoral at any scale.

Humans do immoral things and can justify doing them to continue to do it. This is just a prime example.

That's what I meant earlier. I'm not saying drug dealing is inherently immoral, but that being part of a black market you know creates more suffering than the relief it provides, means you are culpable.

It's not nearly as bad as lots of things, but that doesn't make it pure. I only jumped in there because people are so good at rationalizing, we can come up with real good reasons to say drug dealing is downright righteous (an Evil Drug War, poverty means it's the only option). And I think people should think twice when they buy a gram of blow on a Friday night. I can tell you I'd buy it anyway. I'd just feel bad about it for a few minutes the next time I watch Narcos.

And yes, there's a tiny bit of an issue even without the black market. Think of the popular opinion on tobacco manufacturers. Somehow they're evil for upping the concentration of the active ingredient, and adding chemicals to make it smoke better. If only our dealers would do that. Selling crack to people is not the purest moral thing you could do, even it you did it legally with all-pure ingredients. Nobody needs this stuff to live, or even have a better quality of life. It's risky entertainment.
 
I dislike your use of the word "poison" synonymously with drugs, Libby. Not all drugs are poisons. Altering consciousness has been a part of humanity since before civilization. Psychedelics have provided me with some of the most valuable experiences of my life, I wouldn't be who I am today without them. Even drugs that can be poisonous/toxic when used incorrectly can be valuable when used correctly.

Do you believe caffeine is a poison? How about antidepressants? How about ibuprofen? In fact antidepressants and ibuprofen are far more toxic than some recreational drugs.

Using the word "poison" to describe drugs just further demonizes them and creates hysteria among those who don't know anything about the subject... which, as you pointed out, is not what we need.

Mate Libby can post for herself but this is prol a regional misunderstanding. Down this neck of the woods cigarettes are plain packaged and labelled with dead babies and bits of dead gross etc, sold behind unlabelled plain coverings and taxed the living shit out of as they are actually made of poisonous things. The list of poisons are on the carton.

So not all drugs are poisons man, and any substance can also be poisonous and cause death even too much water.




Cigarettes are pretty unhealthy but I smoke and also give them to mates too. Immoral? Nah just being friendly.
 
As a life long provider of refined sugar, starches and fats of questionable health levels I would be the worst of the immoral drug dealers. We just don't call sugar a drug despite the immediate and intense neurological reaction it has on humans. My profession, baking, will play a hand in more deaths this year than drugs, I have yet to see a cupcake labeled as "may cause diabetes".

Recreational drugs, both legal and illegal, are not immoral nor is their use. Immorality as a word conjures up a different Image in everyone's mind because morality isn't a script of defined acts. Our current social morality varies from country to country and even more so across different demographic groups inside each country. Some would say it's immoral because it's illegal and there is no direct tax paid for the good of the populace, other's would say taxing drugs is more immoral.

We all set our own morality, we can be like school kids and compare ours with everyone else's and see how good it makes us feel. Best though to keep our own in check, I like to make sure my customers know my food is great in small amounts. Some people find food ads immoral, certainly by some of the definitions of immoral provided above fast food giants and soda companies would be way less moral then my dealer.
 
Mate Libby can post for herself but this is prol a regional misunderstanding. Down this neck of the woods cigarettes are plain packaged and labelled with dead babies and bits of dead gross etc, sold behind unlabelled plain coverings and taxed the living shit out of as they are actually made of poisonous things. The list of poisons are on the carton.

So not all drugs are poisons man, and any substance can also be poisonous and cause death even too much water.




Cigarettes are pretty unhealthy but I smoke and also give them to mates too. Immoral? Nah just being friendly.

Being brainwashed by propaganda doesn't justify anything if you ask me.

Although I'll admit, as I mentioned in my first post regarding my dislike of the use of the word poison, I really don't have a problem with it being used to refer to many of the compounds in tobacco smoke as I don't feel their status as poisonous is disputable. Though carcinogenic would probably be a more accurate description.

But Libbys post was very unclear on exactly what substance it was even referring too.

Best I could tell it was saying all drugs are "poison" which would be in keeping with how many people ignorant both of drugs and the word poison describe it.

EDIT: Oh, and while I'd absolutely agree that if you consider it to be immoral, and obviously I don't. Then I agree selling people high fat high sugar foods in the western world should logically be just as immoral. And yet another example of how this leads to a culture of collective responsibility where society is expected to fucking nanny everyone and nobody bares complete responsibility for their mistakes. And fuck that shit.

That said, please please please get onto "is sugar a drug". I remember that thread and it fills me with the same frustration for abuse of language as calling all drugs poisons do.
 
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Jess said:
And yet another example of how this leads to a culture of collective responsibility where society is expected to fucking nanny everyone and nobody bares complete responsibility for their mistakes.

I think spreading the idea of zero-sum morality is immoral. It's not zero-sum, and your "lead to nanny-ing" is direct from the lobbyist playbook, for a forum I remain in self-exile. One person's unethical behavior doesn't change another person's unethical behavior. It is slightly bad to sell sugared drinks to pre-diabetic kids, and it's even worse for parents to buy it for them. There aren't any percentage points to alot unless you're a jury, and that doesn't refer to morality, but to responsibility for the matter.

Certain large corporations facing class-action lawsuits are the only ones who argue that if they accept blame for lying about their product, that makes the consumer blameless, and that turns everyone into mooches with no responsibility for anything. Therefore do not award the victims any money. They are the real villains here, just look at them in their hospital beds getting their skin grafts. L-A-Z-Y.

I won't bring up what you know I'm thinking about, or personal injury lawyers, but only if you admit sugar is a drug AND a poison.
 
You're making bullshit comparisons.

Nobodies talking about selling to children, children dont have absolute culpability. Their culpability is always linked to their guardian. So selling something to children that could hurt them is immoral. Children aren't expected to know the repercussions.

Likewise, you also aren't allowed to dishonestly represent your product. People can't make an informed choice if they've been lied to.

But, an adult who knows the risks incurs sole responsibility for their purchase and use of items that harm them. Not the seller. If the seller is dishonest about what they're selling that's different, if the buyer is a child that's different. But neither scenario was suggested until you brought it up to make it into a strawman.

What the law says doesn't dictate morality either so the existence of class action lawsuits, in addiction to the fact that their existence alone doesn't even say anything about guilt or culpability even from a legal perspective let alone a moral one. Is also irrelevant.

I'll say it again, arguing that the seller is at fault because they sold a harmful product to a consenting adult who knew and accepted the harms is total bullshit. And it dilutes the rightful responsibility of the buyer to be culpable for their own actions.

My drug dealers are in no way responsible for my drug use. It's bullshit.

And using children or dishonest marketing or jurisdiction specific legal arguments that conflate law and morality are not something I find compelling and seem to me to be nothing more than attempts to create a strawman where you change what you claim I said to something different and attack that instead.
 
Well, OK. Let's try that again, because I wasn't trying to start a fight. This is your statement, that confused me until I realized I"d heard it to defend industries before:

Jess said:
Oh, and while I'd absolutely agree that if you consider it to be immoral, and obviously I don't. Then I agree selling people high fat high sugar foods in the western world should logically be just as immoral. And yet another example of how this leads to a culture of collective responsibility where society is expected to fucking nanny everyone and nobody bares complete responsibility for their mistakes. And fuck that shit.

The problem I had was how you went from the ethics of a merchant selling a harmful product, to everybody surrendering responsibility and needing nanny-ing.

I think you were talking about the Baker's post, but I'll restate mine: I'd implied it can't be a bad thing if everyone examined and acknowledged the morality of their particular occupations, even if the local paper boy doesn't have much to worry about, other than the pollution from his El Camino. Tiny pointless things, but it can't hurt to be aware, and not automatically dismiss everything you do as immaculate because you didn't personally murder anyone. Morality is relative, like everyone's said, which means there's always something worse to compare to. It also means there's always a better way. It is very far removed from "complete responsibility".

Then I realized it's the argument of lobbyists, you know, lawyers, like when you said:

My drug dealers are in no way responsible for my drug use. It's bullshit.

I wasn't talking about responsibility. Of course the drug dealer isn't responsible for your behavior. But he gets to ask himself if what he's doing is nonetheless ethically sound. That's the question for the thread.

The nanny-ing "argument" assumes some zero-sum of responsibility, that somehow if you say "it's my dealer's/chef's fault" that means 100% of something left the user/eater and all of "western society" collapses into a personal responsibility-free hell hole. The implications are "don't blame the dealer/chef". But you can both be "responsible" for something. You can also be responsible for something that is horribly immoral, they're separate issues. And it only comes up (other than here) when there's damages about to be awarded.

I agree, the law has nothing to do with this. But when you mentioned nanny-ing and collective responsibility, I knew you'd veered into that line of argument (from lawyers). It's a bad argument, meant to mislead and sway public opinion. I'm not saying you brought it into this intentionally. But I was only trying to explain where I thought you were coming from, and argle-bargle it, because I despise it.
 
Each time "poison "was used in the above comments I was unable to conjure any image but Furniture Polish and a young lady huffing it to the point of psychosis
Would TruValu hardware have been her "dealer"?
Was their selling Pledge immoral?


Or .... was simply, one young lady's use of this product Detrimental to herself and therefore personally irresponsible?
I think the Latter.
 
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