Cutting last month of cycle

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ElkHorn

Bluelighter
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Nov 30, 2017
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I'm doing my first cycle in January. Right now, it's looking like i'll probably end up using 300-400mg test e/week. My goals are to build and keep 10lbs of lean BM, so i'm around 195+ at ~8% BF. I will also be running 2iu of HGH per day for improved/maintained hair and skin quality and hopefully some added fat burning. (The HGH will likely be ran for around 4-5 months).

Been eating too much for the holidays, so i'm going to cut for a couple weeks at the beginning of january as i've read that lower BF is preferable and allows for more growth.

My question is, if it seems like i've made the gains i want within the first two months, would it make sense to do a mild cut the last month of cycle before hopping on PCT, and then switch back to eating at maintenance during PCT? I will be eating clean during cycle, in hopes of gaining minimal BF.
 
A first cycle doesn't usually include hGH, generally that is considered only after years of development and progression with AAS..
It seems a waste to include for the reasons suggested, as they are obtainable with good training methodology and diet..

On a first cycle or any cycle, embrace the bloat, water retention and some fat increase is inevitable for growth, if you start cutting before your cycle ends you will lose some of that growth potential.. Remember there is plenty of time to reduce BF% after your cycle has ended, don't expect to hold onto much of your gains over the longer term, especially if you cut too soon.. (the idea of cut towards the end of a cycle if for bodybuilders entering competition, if you are not don't bother, be happy with your tempory gains for a while)..

Regards PCT, it's been covered here many times, the Moderators here have provided sufficient evidence to show PCT is not necessary on low'ish dose testosterone, or indeed any compound.. The best option for optimal recovery post-cycle is to protect the testes ON-CYCLE from oxidative damage that can severely affect recovery by supplementing with Taurine and Royal Jelly throughout your cycle..
 
^^I agree with gf. If anything, utilize the full length of the cycle to grow and when you come off, emphasis should be on maintaining what you got. Otherwise you'll end up losing a lot of what you got on cycle.
 
Would you guys consider 400mg test e/week to be low enough dose to warrant foregoing PCT?

Also, the Hgh is primarily for retaining and promoting new hair growth as my hair is a bit thin for my liking. To my knowledge, dialed in diet and routine would have little effect on this. I’m not expecting hgh to have much effect on mass at the dose I would be using, and increased fat loss would just be a bonus.

at what doses would you suggest I use taurine and royal jelly? I will go ahead and order that now.

thank you for the replies!
 
ElkHorn said:
Would you guys consider 400mg test e/week to be low enough dose to warrant foregoing PCT?

Also, the Hgh is primarily for retaining and promoting new hair growth as my hair is a bit thin for my liking. To my knowledge, dialed in diet and routine would have little effect on this. I’m not expecting hgh to have much effect on mass at the dose I would be using, and increased fat loss would just be a bonus.

at what doses would you suggest I use taurine and royal jelly? I will go ahead and order that now.

thank you for the replies!
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There is much debate on the net regards PCT, we don't believe it is necessary as the body tends to recover just fine anyway, providing no damage to testes ON-CYCLE...
No amount of PCT will restart testosterone production if the testes are damaged, we prefer to minimise that damage by taking precaution on-cycle, as opposed to attempting to restart once damaged...
3-5g Taurine/day, 1g Royal Jelly/day, might be a better option than expensive anti-cancer drugs..
 
I'd agree either go for a cut or bulk. Personally after having done every variation, I think clean bulking is best in the long run for quality tissue, health, longevity, general feeling good, etc so I prefer a slight surplus over all out bulking but that's me. Can't handle the lethargy I get with really high food intake.

As far as the HGH goes, I'm a huge promoter of low doses for anti-aging effects but, even more IMO, injury prevention and longevity. I've seen pretty amazing results in terms of fat reduction and muscle gain even from 2-2.5iu per day but really use it for injury prevention and drastically increased recovery primarily. Not a fan of higher doses personally but they have their place if that's where your goals take you.
 
How long after completing the cycle should I wait to attempt cutting? Would be frustrating to lose all of my gains. I will be about as lean as I want when I start the cycle, so shouldn’t need to lose much following completion of it if I eat clean.

Also, would you all recommend tapering the testosterone dose the last few weeks if foregoing PCT like is recommended for the 250mg/week beginner cycle in the stickied thread? Just to reiterate, I’ll likely be doing 400mg/week.
 
ElkHorn said:
How long after completing the cycle should I wait to attempt cutting? Would be frustrating to lose all of my gains. I will be about as lean as I want when I start the cycle, so shouldn’t need to lose much following completion of it if I eat clean.

Also, would you all recommend tapering the testosterone dose the last few weeks if foregoing PCT like is recommended for the 250mg/week beginner cycle in the stickied thread? Just to reiterate, I’ll likely be doing 400mg/week.
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I personally don't understand the logic of minimising potential gains on-cycle by reducing or limiting caloric intake.. Embrace the bloat because it won't last, you could fine tune diet after your cycle, but don't be frightened of some fat increase as you grow..
As previously stated unless a competition bodybuilder why consider the cut methodology end of cycle, it doesn't apply to you.. Keep training and eating well post cycle and the leanness will return eventually without the need to hinder gain on your first cycle..

Yes, taper down the dose last 2 weeks as advised...
 
Swim15 said:
I'd agree either go for a cut or bulk. Personally after having done every variation, I think clean bulking is best in the long run for quality tissue, health, longevity, general feeling good, etc so I prefer a slight surplus over all out bulking but that's me. Can't handle the lethargy I get with really high food intake.

As far as the HGH goes, I'm a huge promoter of low doses for anti-aging effects but, even more IMO, injury prevention and longevity. I've seen pretty amazing results in terms of fat reduction and muscle gain even from 2-2.5iu per day but really use it for injury prevention and drastically increased recovery primarily. Not a fan of higher doses personally but they have their place if that's where your goals take you.
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There has been much recent debate regards therapeutic use of hGH in recent years, I'm personally not convinced having used it on and off since 2006.. A team of researchers from Harvard Medical School produced this paper in 2010:

Growth hormone, athletic performance, and aging

Published: May, 2010

To evaluate the safety and efficacy of GH in healthy older people, a team of researchers reviewed 31 high-quality studies that were completed after 1989. Each of the studies was small, but together they evaluated 220 subjects who received GH and 227 control subjects who did not get the hormone. Two-thirds of the subjects were men; their average age was 69, and the typical volunteer was overweight but not obese.

The dosage of GH varied considerably, and the duration of therapy ranged from two to 52 weeks. Still, the varying doses succeeded in boosting levels of IGF-1, which reflects the level of GH, by 88%.

As compared to the subjects who did not get GH, the treated individuals gained an average of 4.6 pounds of lean body mass, and they shed a similar amount of body fat. There was a slight drop in total cholesterol levels, but no significant changes in LDL ("bad") cholesterol, HDL ("good") cholesterol, triglycerides, aerobic capacity, bone density, or fasting blood sugar and insulin levels. But GH recipients experienced a high rate of side effects, including fluid retention, joint pain, breast enlargement, and carpal tunnel syndrome. The studies were too short to detect any change in the risk of cancer, but other research suggests an increased risk of cancer in general and prostate cancer in particular.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases-and-conditions/growth-hormone-athletic-performance-and-aging



'Anti-Aging' Hormone May Actually Shorten Life

Studies have since shown that using HGH, estrogen and other hormones can lead to cancer, cardiovascular disease, joint problems and other ailments. Now the new study finds that low IGF-1 levels might be a benefit, a predictor of exceptionally long life.

In the new study, researchers followed 184 men and women in their mid-90s for up to 11 years. Strikingly, the chance of living through the length of the study depended mostly on the participants' blood levels of IGF-1. Every 1-nanogram per milliliter decrease in IGF-1 translated into about one more week of life.

The lower IGF-1 levels were particularly beneficial for cancer survivors. Three years after entering the study, 75 percent of participants who had previously had cancer and also low IGF-1 levels were still living, whereas only about 25 percent of participants with past cancer and higher IGF-1 were alive.

"In light of insufficient scientific evidence [that] HGH in older adults offers long-term anti-aging benefits, and with studies indicating that low growth hormone levels may actually protect the elderly from aging diseases … the risks of using HGH as an anti-aging strategy outweigh the potential benefits," said Dr. Sofiya Milman, lead author of the new study and an assistant professor of endocrinology at Albert Einstein.

Previously, this research group, led by Dr. Nir Barzilai, director of the school's Institute for Aging Research, found that many centenarians have a mutation that keeps their IGF-1 levels naturally below average. Moreover, mice can live significantly longer — and ward off cancer — when they are resistant to the effects of growth hormone.

The new study coincides with another recent study in the journal Cell Metabolism, which suggested a benefit of lower IGF-1 levels for middle-age adults. That study found that people ages 50 to 65 who consumed large amounts of animal protein had high IGF-1 levels, a four-fold increase in cancer death risk and a 75-percent increase in overall mortality over the 18-year study period.

Dr. Andrzej Bartke, an expert on hormonal and genetic influences of aging at the Southern Illinois University School of Medicine, said he was impressed by the new study, calling it "interesting, important and timely."

However, the relationship between growth hormone, IGF-1, life expectancy and disease is "very complex," Bartke said. Some previous studies have shown that low IGF-1 levels are associated with an increased risk of cardiovascular disease, he said.

Bartke noted that the participants in the new study with low IGF-1 also had low blood sugar levels, which is counterintuitive based on early studies, and may be yet another factor to help explain their longevity.

The Endocrine Society, a professional medical organization, maintains that growth hormone therapy offers benefits in body composition, exercise capacity, skeletal integrity and quality-of-life measures, and is most likely to benefit those patients who have more severe HGH deficiency.

https://www.livescience.com/44436-anti-aging-hormone-may-actually-shorten-life.html
 
Genetic Freak said:
I personally don't understand the logic of minimising potential gains on-cycle by reducing or limiting caloric intake.. Embrace the bloat because it won't last, you could fine tune diet after your cycle, but don't be frightened of some fat increase as you grow..
As previously stated unless a competition bodybuilder why consider the cut methodology end of cycle, it doesn't apply to you.. Keep training and eating well post cycle and the leanness will return eventually without the need to hinder gain on your first cycle..

Yes, taper down the dose last 2 weeks as advised...
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The reason i care so much about leanness is because i'm obsessive about appearance, and the purpose of the cycle is to help me achieve my idea of a perfect aesthetic. I would rather build less mass and stay lean, as long as i can build ~10lbs lean mass that will be maintainable after coming off the AAS.

I understand what you're saying, but AAS are unnecessary period for any practical purpose in my situation. I have significant lean BM and a good physique, but i want to "perfect" it. So for my personal goals, i'd rather take a small hit in size for the sake of staying lean.

That being said, i very much want to be able to maintain a significant part of my gains, for if i lose most all of them, the whole endeavor will seem pointless as i'd rather not use AAS with any real frequency.

How long would you recommend waiting to perform a serious cut after cessation of testosterone so as to be able to maintain the gains made?
 
I see in that article it states the side effects of "breast enlargement" from HGH. Is gyno a common side effect of hgh?
 
ElkHorn said:
I see in that article it states the side effects of "breast enlargement" from HGH. Is gyno a common side effect of hgh?
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Running 4iu a day currently with over a gram of test and no gyno issues. Only people I know who've had issues with hgh was true prolactin increase if memory serves right and that is such a rare thing to occur.
 
HGH causes breast enlargement in women, as they have high levels of estrogen and low levels of androgens.
 
I'd agree on a lot of the iffy-ness of some of the anti aging claims. I was talking more in terms of increasing longevity through healing properties but strictly in broad anti aging terms I'm a lot more skeptical. Also partially why I'd keep doses low and also pay attention to blood sugar over time
 
Ok, thank you for the replies.

To restate my last question, how long after ceasing testosterone injections should i wait to attempt a cut? Is there a certain period, where if maintained, the added mass is more likely to "stick"?

Would there be any sense in waiting a couple months and then using something like clomid for a small test boost while attempting a cut?
 
Don't think there is any real answer to that but so long as you are lifting heavy you should retain most LBM. If it me personally I'd use clomid as I've seen temporary test boosts in the range of 200-300% using it off cycle. Just arbitrarily, maybe wait 6-8 weeks.

The other option is to eat at maintenance and then cut for another cycle. IME I always gain LMB during a cut using gear if diet and training is on point.
 
Wait as long as your cycle was and do blood work to see where you're at hormonally. If everything comes back "good", then begin your cut. Starting a cut when you aren't optimal hormone wise will just cause loss of lean mass much more quickly (you'll b e catabolic from decreasing food, lowered anabolism from low testosterone levels)..also hormones will plummet Naturally if you drop dietary fat too low.
 
Ok, thank you both for the answers.

Dabbled in a couple other steroid forums so far, and appreciate the quality of discussion in this one.
 
Don't do a hard fast cut either. You will burn through lean tissue quickly if not on a good amount of gear. Slow and steady.
 
Another question for you all. Considered making a new thread, but i don't want to clog the forum up.

First, is 400mg test e/week overkill for the goal of gaining 10lbs LBM that can be maintained post-cycle? I realize that i'm just asking for anecdotal accounts here, but i still think there is value in it.

Second, how good or bad of an idea do you all think using 2iu HGH/day is? Is this likely to cause damage to my natural HGH production? If i do go through with it, does 2iu/day seem reasonable for increased fat loss and thicker hair?
 
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