Adding HCG to Beginner Cycle

Appreciate the words brother and since that's bluelights mission, I don't mind to stay out of the noobie threads. My only point in posting my thoughts is that I truly see gear use without PCT as more harmful in some way, be it cognitive or other, than not utilizing those drugs and wouldn't want someone to be left feeling how I've felt post cycle before. However, is it the end of the world? No.

In terms of my use, I won't defend it really as I don't feel a lot of a need. What I run now is considerably less than I used to run few years ago so I've taken precautions to an extent. Really, I honestly don't see it as all that risky when taking into account health markers, blood work, diet, cardio, and genetics in relation to those.

Don't get me wrong, I know that actions always have consequences but my health markers have almost always been ideal and I will continue to monitor them. Most average Americans honestly couldn't say that about their blood work/other markers so I see diet and exercise as a way to mitigate while also not doing things like drinking that are a part of most other people's lifestyles. That said, I've coached guys who have had health markers get thrown way off by 3-00-400mg of test so genetics play a huge role there.
 
^^I think that is exactly what we're looking for. Some people may see your posts as gospel as you mention the sources of information. Those not in the know don't really take into account using gear like we do (mostly recreational) and people that make a living off of it. When my body becomes my chief source of income, harm reduction will be long gone which is why top coaches basically throw health out the window. We that have been in this a while know this, but the noobie might not take that into consideration. It's kind of a catch-22. Maybe we can create a thread with a a disclaimer for advanced usage? So that we can cater to both audiences because, not to sound condescending, but your purposed drol cycle both terrifies me and excites me lol. That way we can have both aspects of harm reduction: to the beginner who just wants to try things out, and to the advanced people trying not to fuck themselves up lol. Then we have a place to advise new users and a place for us to discuss some, let's be real, sometimes outrageous protocols and report back on them.
 
Daz-69 said:
It's still titled as Guidos, but has been extensively revised, to cover more recent research from a greater harm reduction standpoint...
Click to expand...

Thank you for the clarification.

I was thinking about using 4-500mg a week again lately, but am now thinking that i will just use 250mg/week. I very much like the idea of minimal dosing and as few drugs as possible.

How much lean mass would you all think i might expect to gain on 250mg/week for 12 weeks? I'm currently a lean 185. (full abdominal definition, my guess around 11%BF)

My ideal physique is bout 10-15 lbs more lean mass with slightly lower BF.

The reason i was leaning towards 4-500 a week again was because from what ive read and heard from friends, i could easily achieve my current ideal physique at a 4-500/week dose. I'm slightly worried that if i fell significantly short, i would be enticed to run another cycle right away or sooner than i'd like.

Planning on doing this as safely as possible. I've been sitting on a significant amount of test, arimidex, and clomid for a while now, but do not want to rush into anything. Would rather wait to start sometime next year when i won't be traveling while on cycle, so as to maximize my results.
 
I'll throw my .02 as far as LBM again. It's VERY genetic and basically impossible to guess and almost as hard to quantify unless you have body fat testing before and after with a more advanced method of testing.

I'd guess maybe 3-4lbs of tissue in 12 weeks as a first timer but, again, really impossible to speculate.

The only point of reference I have is for myself where I had two bod pod tests close to a year apart with the same bod bop, calibration, and administrator. During that time I wasn't 'advanced' but I wasn't a noob either. I used between 500-1500mg for most of the year and put on 20lbs of tissue according to that test.
 
Serotonin- probably a good thought and like hearing your perspective as always.

Personally I wouldn't even call that drol cycle all that irresponsible given when I've seen in medical literature but it has me interested to see what happens as well.

I definitely don't want to disregard health so as soon as I see health markers getting out of line then I will change my methods but so far I haven't had much of a reason. I get monitored off the record by a friend/endocrinologist that works with bodybuilders on drugs/health among other things. Going to see him in the spring most likely so if anyone has any tests they would like to see specifically, I may be able to get those done
 
Swim15 said:
Serotonin- probably a good thought and like hearing your perspective as always.

Personally I wouldn't even call that drol cycle all that irresponsible given when I've seen in medical literature but it has me interested to see what happens as well.

I definitely don't want to disregard health so as soon as I see health markers getting out of line then I will change my methods but so far I haven't had much of a reason. I get monitored off the record by a friend/endocrinologist that works with bodybuilders on drugs/health among other things. Going to see him in the spring most likely so if anyone has any tests they would like to see specifically, I may be able to get those done
Click to expand...
Lol it's only frightening to me because 50mg of drol destroys my appetite and makes me feel shitty. Yet I was accidentally dosing methyl tren at 2mg/day for a couple weeks and felt fantastic lmao.
 
Serotonin101 said:
Lol it's only frightening to me because 50mg of drol destroys my appetite and makes me feel shitty. Yet I was accidentally dosing methyl tren at 2mg/day for a couple weeks and felt fantastic lmao.
Click to expand...

Shitttt haha that is some intense stuff. Used it a couple times pre workout but couldn't ever really justify using it to myself oddly enough lmao. Unfortunately I'm not one that gets hit with the anadrol appetite destruction but I kinda hoping I do at some point.

How were you looking on the mtren?
 
Swim15 said:
Shitttt haha that is some intense stuff. Used it a couple times pre workout but couldn't ever really justify using it to myself oddly enough lmao. Unfortunately I'm not one that gets hit with the anadrol appetite destruction but I kinda hoping I do at some point.

How were you looking on the mtren?
Click to expand...

I'll throw my reply in the social thread to continue the discussion without derailing this thread too much.
 
Swim15 said:
In terms of my use, I won't defend it really as I don't feel a lot of a need. What I run now is considerably less than I used to run few years ago so I've taken precautions to an extent. Really, I honestly don't see it as all that risky when taking into account health markers, blood work, diet, cardio, and genetics in relation to those.
Click to expand...

I didn't try to get you to defend what you do. I considered that a poor use of my time long ago, particularly as you came here with very set views from the start. Rather, the request was that you don't base the advice you give others on your own logic, since you show so little regard for the well documented potential harms that AAS use/abuse protocols like yours will generate.

As for your faith in the tests you say you get, unfortunately there is no comprehensive 'measure' of all the various potential physical harms induced by AAS, and nor is there any genetic test. And so you kid yourself if you think what you see means you're fine. I discussed just one aspect of that with you only a few weeks ago wrt kidney issues. But maybe your aorta is in the process of splitting right now due to your AAS use - how would you know when there are often no symptoms?

Again, think of your approach to MDMA, then reflect it back to AAS: it's totally dissonant. When someone is as confident as you are about something you can't possibly know or insure against, then you would do well to at least accept that uncertainty and admit you're doing what you're doing despite the risks, rather than attempt to paint it as 'extremely benign' then push it onto others, which flies in the face of literally everything HR's about.
 
Didn't think you were trying to get me to defend my use, I just don't think there is a need to. I also wouldn't ever want to push anything on others but only share my experience and opinions with the maybe-not-as-explicitly-stated-as-necessary expectation that people compare those to their own research.

In regards to MDMA, there are few substances that I've see cause similar repercussions. I've got multiple close friends who have had lasting mind altering symptoms from only a few doses of MDMA. One was after taking one dose per day two days in a row and another was after three months of use with one dose approximately every 3-4 weeks. Lots of similar stories here. Few drugs can cause acute, lasting psychological symptoms like that although the long term brain changes from moderate use scare me much more than any literature I've read regarding AAS.

AAS harm comes more from chronic abuse as injecting even multiple vials in a single sitting isn't going to cause any lasting detrimental effects (I'm saying all of this without consideration of effects on the endocrine system since I believe there is some consensus that 'recovery' to a pre-AAS state won't fully happen). Yes we have documented effects on the heart, among other systems and body organs, but after the extensive reading I've done, combined with hundreds of anectodal reports and living specimens from the 60's, 70's, and 80's, it takes years of abuse to cause truly detrimental harm and, even then, many live long lives.

I'm not saying there aren't risks but, for example, I'm using around 1300mg of test per week (mins anadrol which I temporarily dropped). Is it free of risk? Definitely not. However, I know enough people that are in their 40's, 50's, and 60's who have used upwards of 3000-5000mg+ per week for a years and years. Safe? No. Am I willing to take a calculated risk while monitoring my health with an endocrinologist? Yes.

I'll probably add angiogram and EKG to my next checkup for fun as well just to look at a few other things.

Now, we are also talking about some moderately high dose AAS use. Going back to the original topic - I think HCG and/or nolva/clomid offer positive effects that far outweigh the negative IMO. My grandpa is 94 currently. Ultimately, if I take 20 years off my life, which I think is very very liberal, and only live to 73...I'd rather live 70 years a lion then 90 years a lamb. I go after things hard and always have, won't downplay that at all.
 
Swim15 said:
I'm not saying there aren't risks but, for example, I'm using around 1300mg of test per week (mins anadrol which I temporarily dropped). Is it free of risk? Definitely not. However, I know enough people that are in their 40's, 50's, and 60's who have used upwards of 3000-5000mg+ per week for a years and years. Safe? No. Am I willing to take a calculated risk while monitoring my health with an endocrinologist? Yes.

I'll probably add angiogram and EKG to my next checkup for fun as well just to look at a few other things.

Now, we are also talking about some moderately high dose AAS use. Going back to the original topic - I think HCG and/or nolva/clomid offer positive effects that far outweigh the negative IMO. My grandpa is 94 currently. Ultimately, if I take 20 years off my life, which I think is very very liberal, and only live to 73...I'd rather live 70 years a lion then 90 years a lamb. I go after things hard and always have, won't downplay that at all.
Click to expand...

As I said, what you do and the reasons you use (however flimsy in my mind) to justify your risky usage, despite the weight of science against you, aren't the issue. It's the claim that what you do is 'benign' that was the problem. And resorting to anecdotes about 'pros' or the fact you know some people who've done crazy things and not yet died and so on isn't an adequate defence. For a myriad of reasons, some of which I've already gone through in this thread and am not about to rehash.

I personally don't think you'll be so willing to lose 20 years from your life in the future. If you ever have children, how would they feel? How about grandkids? How about your wife/partner? You think it's fine now because it's so far off in the future that it means nothing. But also, the biggest risk is not so much death - that would be easy in some respects. The risk is decades of prolonged and premature ill-health and a reduced quality of life. But anyway, those are all your choices and I know you're smart enough to figure this out eventually.

As long as we can agree that you're not going to attempt to brush off health risks for others because you personally aren't bothered by them, or because some random coach isn't, when his credibility comes from winning contests not harm reduction, then things are cool.

As for PCT, I have no issue with you arguing for its use and I've said that before on other threads. The fact you're doing so out of concern for harm is something I appreciate. Tbh I need to bring together our reasoning more cohesively and it's an oversight on my part that I still haven't put it all together in the First Cycle sticky for noobs to read, rather than tediously run through the reasons every time the question comes up.
 
Last edited:
Never have I seen so patient mods at any forum :)

I'm afraid people like Swim can only learn the things that you guys are trying to convey to him the hard way....and this is sad!
 
abzlove said:
Never have I seen so patient mods at any forum :)

I'm afraid people like Swim can only learn the things that you guys are trying to convey to him the hard way....and this is sad!
Click to expand...

He is also in a different spot than most of us. His body is a product to be marketed for (not sure if he left there?) a supplement company and photoshoots. When your income depends on the way you look, it's kind of expected for harm reduction to be knocked down a few pegs on the priority list. Within reason of course.
 
I respectfully disagree and out of respect for all others I'm not going to go back and forth but will say this: everyone in the way is using their body to earn an income and make a living. If I couldn't get up from the bed to drive/walk to train, I couldn't be able to work where I work now. If I couldn't type and didn't have fingers I also couldn't be working where I'm now.

If you have the health then you are rich already!
 
abzlove said:
Never have I seen so patient mods at any forum :)

I'm afraid people like Swim can only learn the things that you guys are trying to convey to him the hard way....and this is sad!
Click to expand...

I don't see it that way. At some point if and when health markers begin to indicate that I am actually doing harm that will have lasting consequences, my methods will change. That hasn't happened yet so until then, it is just speculation as to how my use, which is moderate among the circles I'm in, may or may not impact me
 
CFC - appreciate the discussion and I should probably clarify for the record.

I guess my comment on being benign was in respect to acute vs chronic use and consequences when many/most other drugs can have acute consequences much more quickly.

I think the term forgiving would potentially be much more appropriate seeing as it would be impossible to do something like overdose or hurt yourself in a very short time frame short of gobbling down orals like skittles. Conversely, a few weeks or even one night binging on most other recreational drugs could have disasterous short and long term consequences.

Can you destroy your body over time with AAS? Yes. However, any short term mistakes are usually very, very easily recovered compared to a lot of other drugs discussed on this forum if that makes sense.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top