pro life ; pro choice

[Kittycat5]

I dont see how that makes a difference. Are fetuses genetically a member of the species Homo sapiens? Yes, of course. But no born human lives in a womb. Birth is the time we gain our humaness (Id actually now prefer to use the term bornness since you brought up the, in my eyes faulty argument of species vs human).

 

[ShroomySatori]

I should have made the distinction between biological life and human life. Of course a fetus is biologically alive but so are our skin cells of which we lose millions of all the time. Even the sex cells are "killed" via menstruation or masturbation. But once a fetus is born, I look at it like an upwardly ticking clock that starts at time zero. The human clock begins at birth.

I think the same as you in this regard. I think that some of us here are looking at this with too linear a mindset. As someone with engineering science and teaching degrees, I feel that education really just limited my mind in so many ways and I had to eventually break free from it to release my true feelings and bring myself down to Earth to set myself free to roam this planet and explore with open eyes. I was stuck in endless cycles of logic for far too long and it stunted my creative growth, made me depressed and diseased... creativity set me free. And 2C-C.

I'm really not digging the scientific arguments here, when applied in this context it is a ridiculous notion. An upwardly ticking clock that starts at time zero - perfectly concise way of putting it. Which will evolve into a human spirit if it is so allowed and not stopped. There needs nothing more to be said for those who choose this way of life.

Anything regarding the science of biology or physics or psychology or anything at all is meaningless to me in this context. If I want to think that way, I'll go learn some quantum perturbation theory and maybe that will help me change my mind about an important life decision to think over in an openminded way. Not through some institutions which teach us labels to attach to things that somehow explain the great mystery of life, which no mortal is capable of ever truly understanding.

 

[bomber]

Pro choise...life is overated anyway.

 

[Kittycat5]

I was trying to avoid this but I agree Shroomy that birth is the beginning of the human journey exactly because of environment. I dont think a fetus expects to be born. But a born human surely doesnt expect to be unborn for lack of a better term.

 

[ShroomySatori]

Life is beautiful. Overrated?

Okay, does anyone with a biological, scientific standpoint have anything real, of their own point of view to say that is not regurgitated from some textbook they memorized intended to "prove" with their holier than thou wisdom that my life choice is idiocy? Other than the stages of growth of a fetus? That is completely irrelevant to me from what was just mentioned above.

For instance, I am quite curious if any other animals in our kingdom of life perform intentional abortions. We are, after all, animals too. Do bucks eat little growing deer out of doe's pussies for instance? I am actually curious about this as I don't have much of a biology background apart from having a powerful attention to detail... so more of a naturalist.

 

[Kittycat5]

Many do. Horses can actually physically do this when a female is not impregnated by the lead male of the group. The male will mount the female and mate vigorously to induce abortion so he can impregnate her. Almost every species of mammal can reabsorb their fetus if there are scarce resources or overpopulation. Rodents can induce a termination of pregnancy via pheremones. Intent is difficult to define however in species other than our own.

 

[ShroomySatori]

That is fascinating thanks. I had no idea about any of this! I know some animals eat their babies too I think.

I am taking a down to earth, spiritual kind of perspective that is based on rudimentary scientific principles such as the progression of time.

Everyone has the decision to do what they want. I did heroin for 5 years, am recently clean and nearly killed myself, not realizing how many people I was hurting other than myself. At least I wasn't killing babies though... well I suppose that I was, as I plan on having a family in the future. If you think it's worth it to essentially have a future newborn baby's blood on your hands, for the selfish sake of not accepting a mistake that you made for the sake of being overwhelmed by pleasure, then you and your partner may as well give birth to the creature you created to abuse and neglect, set the oven to 400F, and cook for an hour with salt to taste. Boiling in water for several hours in blood also makes for a tasty treat.

I prefer to go with the flow and allow the natural course of nature to progress, as it should. If you think money is worth more than life, perhaps you have some thinking to do as well.

I could not date a woman who would so much as consider taking the morning after pill. I could not even strike up a romance with a woman who was on birth control, either. I think it is absolutely childish, but adults behave like bad tempered, selfish little children all the time anyway so do as you wish. It's bad Karma, that is for sure. There's nothing wrong with radical thinking either. Everyone has their own perception of this, but to me, it tells a lot about who a person really is.

 

[spacejunk]

Life is beautiful. Overrated?

Okay, does anyone with a biological, scientific standpoint have anything real, of their own point of view to say that is not regurgitated from some textbook they memorized intended to "prove" with their holier than thou wisdom that my life choice is idiocy? Other than the stages of growth of a fetus? That is completely irrelevant to me from what was just mentioned above.

Nobody's putting you down, man - at least, not that i can see.
In all fairness, this is a controversial topic, and people tend to have fairly polarised views on each side. It always opens up a can of worms to start a thread like this (or circumcision or gun laws etc) but that doesn't mean that people who disagree with you are saying your "life choice is idiocy".

 

[ShroomySatori]

I believe that I wrote that with no ego involved, as I am presently tripping out on 2C-C and smoked another unfiltered joint. It is a heated discussion, that is why I am enjoying this so much, my first ever thread actually and I expected almost no responses at all!!! I was actually a little stressed out at the time by what one of my friends told me she is going through today. So thanks to everyone because I get to see how people are thinking differently. But to me I was being silly a bit and trying to stir shit up intentionally. I understand civil rights... at least I think I do haha. Didn't mean to be insulting... just a little sociopathic and manipulative

I may in fact be tripping out a tad much!

The stuff Kittycat wrote above regarding real phenomena in the animal kingdom is what I view as real biology. It seems like something Charles Darwin out on an expedition in South America would observe from afar and write in his note book. That is a real naturalist right there. As for the details regarding the development of a fetus, please leave that to the physicists. We see such matters on a much deeper level, passing quantum physics 1 and 2 was tough as fuck, and you didn't even take the nature of time itself into account.

This was all catalyzed by an 8 hour conversation I had with a lady friend of mine by the way. I owe this creation to her, my first thread, it was not me who started this chaotic but lovely discussion. I wouldn't call it a debate at all. I am paying homage to her through this very sentence. I also believe I owe some credit to the Sacred Key that is 2C-C, enhanced by the lovely unfiltered inhalation of some organic sensi star crossed with girl scout cookies.

Just thought I'd chime in. I need to get back to a discussion regarding the cyclical pattern of the nature of reality in terms of alternating sinusoidal waveforms, the circumference of a circle, and the infinite periodicity of all things (or non-things, I suppose). I need to read what he expressed to me several times over again but I am giving him my first impression. I am loving this by the way, thanks everyone for your points of view. It is tripping me right out at the present moment as I see pastel hues of pink and green in the background screen that is normally white, but in the present moment it is something much more lovely.

 

[Foreigner]

I'm really tired of the abortion debate, seeing the same ideas and beliefs cycle over and over again.

The only fact I know to be true is that abortion will always happen. Whether a doctor is doing it, the woman does it to herself, or nature does it. I don't think nature really cares if a prenatal life-form gets snuffed out. I don't think nature even cares if a grown adult gets snuffed out. Our lives just aren't that important to anything in the grand scheme.

Telling a woman she can't abort a pregnancy is like telling a tree that it can't grow or that a bird shouldn't fly. I read somewhere recently that female dogs have the ability to absorb a pregnancy when they are under stress, rather than allow the embryos to develop. Humans may lack that ability but if you look at the way other species handle pregnancies (or don't), it's clear that prenatal life just isn't that invaluable. Fully developed members of any species are more important than prenatal offspring. It's why female bodies are designed to terminate pregnancies under stress or ill health. The health and well-being of the host matters more.

As someone who is experiencing really bad health right now, I can tell you that reproduction is a luxury. The first thing to decline when you get really unwell is your libido and your sexual apparatus. Your body will sacrifice that first.

I can't tell women what their pregnancy should mean to them but in the grand scheme fetuses are pretty disposable. Our emotional attachments and made up moralistic rules are why we value some over others.

 

[ShroomySatori]

That was a beautiful expression and something I completely did not expect to ever hear. You officially blew my mind.

I know what I would personally like my future to look like, that is all. I am conscious, and have enough choices at hand to build a future for myself that I am comfortable with, and everyone else should have that right too. I just couldn't personally live with myself being personally a part of it, and although there have been infinite lifeforms who have existed from beginningless and endless time, my own life in the present moment is extremely meaningful and beautiful to me. I have a vision of my own destiny which I would like to fulfill, and abortion can play no part in it. I have the conscious awareness and power to alter the course of my life to fit my morals and values like a glove.

Man... that discussion I just had with my friend regarding the nature of reality in terms of mathematical patterns associated with infinity, criss crossing sinusoidal waveforms with varying amplitudes, frequencies, and other properties with varying permutations, circle with no beginning or end, altered the course of my life. The theoretical physics he was writing to me to explain the essence of the nature of life and reality as it manifests just blew my mind so far out that I don't even know if I'm on planet earth anymore. I don't think I ever was on this so-called rock in orbit around this so-called Sun to begin with.

The response I wrote back was tangential and even went to second and third and even fourth derivatives but I think that is what he was planning on doing. Tripping me the fuck out into a wild animal with some sort of brain disease, and now I am feeding off of that to alter my perspective into unchartered territory. I don't think myself or anyone else ever existed to begin with as separate from anything else. I don't even know if there is a left or right side to this. Those are just two labels that lead to conflict. Everyone seems to have their own experiences and nuanced viewpoints. It is so very beautiful to me at this present moment to hear people sharing like this. I probably should have entitled this thread "philosophy and discussion of abortion" or something like that to not lead people by misleading labels, such as the heated word God which I prefer to refer to as The Clear Light of The Void so that it doesn't induce an immediate ego response.

I lost my sex drive completely as a heroin addict. It was the first long term effect I experienced, apart from constipation. When in the worst of health, it really is the first thing to go. I wouldn't have been able to reproduce if I tried to. I view it as a privilege now, not to be lost if I can help it, from what was just written above. I better get making babies before it's too late! 8) 8(

 

[Ragnarok-isinsight]

" I could not date a woman who would so much as consider taking the morning after pill. I could not even strike up a romance with a woman who was on birth control, either. I think it is absolutely childish, but adults behave like bad tempered, selfish little children all the time anyway so do as you wish. It's bad Karma, that is for sure."

Shroomy, I was on birth control for 5 years for medical reasons. When I turned 21 I started getting my period more often than not. I would go maybe 5-7 days without a period then experience heavy bleeding for about 8-10 days, then 5 without one, 8 with, 6 without, 10 days with a period, yadda yadda. This continued for 2 months until I became anemic from iron loss from bloodloss as well as other symptoms. I was put on BC for medical reasons, but does that mean you would immediately lose interest in me as soon as you heard I'm on BC without hearing my story? That a romance with me is invalid because my hormones were out of whack and BC stabilized them?

 

[Kittycat5]

To be fair, you werent using them primarily for contraception.

 

[ShroomySatori]

Oh, I didn't even know that was possible. I don't know much about periods, I don't get them. I am normally just told when she is going to be getting hers soon. Neither of my two relationships I was in were they on birth control, but I wasn't thinking about this topic at all really until I had that catalyzing conversation with my friend.

Your case would be an exception I think but also, I would like to have children so I'm not sure if that is possible with this condition? I didn't even know it existed. That sounds tragic I'm sorry you had to experience that.

All of this is blowing my mind. I mean, the experiences everyone is sharing are so profound, and altering my perspective as well. Thank you for sharing such a personal thing. It really got me thinking. I don't think I could rule someone like that out, and I hope that condition goes away in time? The iron deficiency sounds miserable, I am sorry to hear that.

I am tripping so hard today and I didn't sleep last night and I forgot to take any benzos today. I ended up at the end of the day feeling dissociated from reality, normally would have been having at least a panic attack but I was unable to feel fear. It added a new dimension to the trip, and has altered the way I am thinking about this. That being said, I felt the need to take some etizolam to chill out a bit.

Thanks for sharing it got me thinking and I really hope that went away for you? If so then I feel like it would be my duty to support her through it until it did. I would like to be with someone who is presently or will be fertile in the future.

 

[Snake_Eyes]

Pro choice for the most part but I'm against late term abortion unless special circumstances warrant it, such as the life of mother is in jeopardy etc.

 

[augustaB]

I'm definitely pro-choice. Despite all the bleating from lifers, some women who find themselves pregnant will always seek to terminate. This can be for many reasons, and it occurs more when access to contraceptives is restricted. If no legal abortion is available they will take the illegal route and thus put their own lives in danger. The Pro-life lobby in my view is profoundly misogynistic.

 

[drug_mentor]

I dont see how that makes a difference. Are fetuses genetically a member of the species Homo sapiens? Yes, of course. But no born human lives in a womb. Birth is the time we gain our humaness (Id actually now prefer to use the term bornness since you brought up the, in my eyes faulty argument of species vs human).

Obviously, no born human lives in a womb. Absolutely nobody disputes this, I am struggling to see the relevance of that fact?

The pro-life position is that all human life is of value, whether it is born or not. Obviously, you are entitled to your opinion. But, simply asserting that 'bornness' is morally significant is a question-begging reply - you are assuming the very thing that is at issue.

I was trying to avoid this but I agree Shroomy that birth is the beginning of the human journey exactly because of environment. I dont think a fetus expects to be born. But a born human surely doesnt expect to be unborn for lack of a better term.

What do you mean "because of environment"? Babies are born in many different environments, what morally significant characteristic do all of these environments share which wombs lack? How is it in any way plausible to suppose that the environment which a creature inhabits has a bearing on whether that creature has rights against being killed? That seems like an astronomical leap in logic to me.

I really don't understand the point you are making with respect to expectations. Presumably, a foetus is not in possession of the concepts 'birth', 'born', 'life', etc.; nor is a newborn in possession of the concepts 'death', 'dead', 'unborn', etc. If I am right about this, it is in principle impossible for a newborn baby to expect to be killed. Why does this cognitive deficiency confer a right to life on the newborn? The foetus is in an entirely analogous situation, it can't expect to be killed, because it doesn't understand what that means. Why does ignorance on the part of the newborn confer a right to life, but ignorance on the part of the foetus is a justification for denying it the very same right? This line of argument makes no sense to me whatsoever, and I am pro-choice.

 

[JessFR]

I don't understand "pro-life" arguments at all.

You don't have to understand it. The problem isn't people not understanding it. The problem is people making arguments that any logical person could see obviously won't apply in a pro life value set. You don't have to understand how you came to a pro life value set to grasp it.

For example when pro choicers try to argue that pro lifers don't have a right to apply it to other people. Well indeed they don't, but only if you already accept that there is no life beyond the mothers at that point to begin with. If you do that argument falls apart. It's no different from saying I think murder is wrong but don't have a right to apply it to anyone else.

Anyways. Obviously this is something that would be a much greater problem for a straight man who is pro life. It doesn't really apply if you're a pro life straight female. But imagining it. I would have a problem with it too because if my own pro life values. I mean, I'm a fairly moderate pro lifer, I don't really try and force it on others and I don't accept the argument that abortion is murder. Even if only because it can't be murder where the murderer didn't know they were killing anyone.

But I can understand how difficult it would be. If I were a straight guy, I doubt I could have a relationship with a pro choice woman where there is a risk of future pregnancy. And honestly, I don't think you should have to understand the pro life argument to appreciate that either.

I could explain all the reasons I'm pro life to you assuming I haven't before, and I highly doubt it would change your mind. But it really shouldn't matter.

It's one thing when you're talking about if being pro choice or pro life is logically or reasonably a legitimate point of view. But if all you're talking about is the wider implications of the view, understanding it's origins are largely irrelivent. All that matters is some of us do rightly or wrongly honestly and selflessly believe that human life or at least right to continued life begins at conception. As soon as you can accept that even if you disagree with it you should be able to appreciate why most of us can't just leave it alone and not let it matter in wider social life.

That's the part that most upsets me, that pro choicers show such contempt and disrespect for pro life beliefs. I understand why, it's a very emotive issue for everyone. An unfortunate and usually completely honest difference of opinion on such a simple matter that has such enormous ramifications. But despite that don't feel any ill will towards anyone for their beliefs on this. It's a very profound question about a subject we still don't have a completely clear idea about. What life is, what consciousness is, the nature of existence, and most importantly, when and how it begins.

I understand that people of a pro choice belief set are honestly standing up for a reasoned and understandable belief about free choice, a political stance that I normally show extreme loyalty towards. I'd love to be able to be pro choice. And to be honest. I hope I'm wrong. I want the pro choicers to be right because everyone would be better off that way. But I've given it a lot of thought and I simply can't support it.

The best I can do is stay out of it. And honestly even in that I find myself questioning if that's morally right. Because if I believe life begins at conception, or again, that at least the protections of sentient life begin then, then how can I justify not taking a stronger stance to try and actually stop people having abortions. I know why I don't, because I know they honestly don't see what they're doing. Because I know that the choice to have an abortion for most is not an easy one. I worry how outlawing it will have side effects that could put the mothers life at risk too. And because it's hard to want to do things that hurt innocent people alive and here now for the sake of someone who can't yet speak for themselves. But then I also think perhaps that's all the more reason I should.

Honestly I hate all of it. Nothing but hurt feelings and anger all around from every side where everyone thinks they're doing the right thing.

Anyways. Like I said. You don't need to be able to understand coming to the belief to understand how having said belief affects people and their relationships in the world. And given that this is SLR and not CE&P. That's probably all that matters.

 

[spacejunk]

I suppose what i mean is that i don't understand why guys would put such severe restrictions (such as "pro choice" girls, women who use morning after pills or contraceptive pills being a deal-breaker) on themselves - especially when they're not really aware of the implications of each of those things.

I get that people have moral issues about abortion; but i don't understand why people - particularly men - moralise about contraception to others. (I don't mean in this thread, or aimed at the OP, but just generally).

I just simply don't understand it. It's not something i can relate to - as for the OP i think it's his loss; nothing more, really.

To me, contraception and family planning is one of the most revolutionary things to have become fairly safely and reliably available to humans in the last 50 or 60 years. None of them are perfect, but they give us control over our lives that early generations of people could only dream of.
And it has totally changed our culture when it comes to love, sex and family.

The impression i often get is that the church opposes everything to do with modernity, technology and the future.
Add this to the church's stranglehold over people with guilt regarding their sexuality and we have a potent mix.
There is a reason why people from wealthy countries tend to have smaller families than people from developing countries; better education and access to contraception and other family planning methods.

Each to their own, but when men don't understand the full picture when it comes to these matters (they all involve women's bodies) i can't help but feel a little disappointment for the guys and the girls involved.
The girls, for being stigmatised for simply making the most of what modern medicine offers us to engage in family planning, and also the guys, for putting such tight restrictions on things that (as it turns out) they don't appear to know much about.

I'm not saying it's bad to be pro-choice, but i personally don't get it.
Not casting judgement, but i don't understand it.

As i said, i have personally benefited from abortion, as well as birth control and the morning-after pill, and not only is my (personal) conscience clear, but i'm extremely grateful. Supporting a woman through an abortion isn't a fun thing, but i'd prefer it to both of us being forced to deal with an unwanted pregnancy.

 

[JessFR]

I agree that there is a lot of misunderstanding in both sides. You're right that a lot of people don't have a very good idea what they're even talking about.

I also agree that I think most people who are pro life don't have what I think either of us would call particularly compelling arguments for being pro life. Which of course is why people who are pro choice tend to be so dismissive.

But not all of us are like that. I'm not particularly religious, my pro life views do have a spiritual element but it has almost nothing to do with god and most of my beliefs about it stem from entirely agnostic views.

And likewise, being pro life doesn't mean you need have any problem with contraception. I don't. I have no problem with the morning after pill either. Most of the time as I recall it prevents conception to begin with so I see little moral issue even if you do believe life begins at conception.

Actually I think it's retarded. If you're pro life especially for reasons beyond religion, I think you should be passionately in favor of access to contraception. It's the best possible result. If we just prevent unintended pregnancy there's no problem. No abortion, no unwanted children, everybody wins.

But even if you don't understand how we could believe life begins at conception, surely you can understand that putting aside if such a belief is right or wrong, if you DO hold that belief, and if you're a straight man, why would you have a relationship with a woman who is pro choice. If she gets pregnant and decides to have an abortion, to you, she will have killed your child. Even if you believe such a notion is wrong surely you can see why someone wouldn't want to be in that situation.

You don't have to agree that life begins at conception to understand the ramifications of such a belief. I'm pro life but I'm a straight female so fortunately that precludes this from having any relevancy in my life. I'll never be in such a position where I'd have no say over the termination of a pregnancy I'm partly responsible for.

But I can still imagine what it must be like. Imagine if you're a man and you belief life begins at conception, if your wife or girlfriend terminates a pregnancy she has from you, in your mind she will have just killed your child.

I don't think you should need to be able to either agree with or understand that view. All you need to know is that's what the person beliefs, and then you should be able to see how painful and heartbreaking that situation would be and why you'd want to never risk it by getting involved with a woman where it could happen.

If I were a straight man I wouldn't either.

I know you and most people here don't agree that life begins at conception. I know why you think that. And I don't hold any ill will because of it. I understand you feel like you're fighting for the right of women to exercise control over her body, something is normally be passionately in agreement on.

But that's the thing I find so frustrating, because for so many people of a pro choice belief, it's not just that they don't understand or agree that we belief life begins at conception, they act like they don't believe that we honestly do. They make arguments like that women have a right to control their body and it's nobody else's decision. But that's only true if you already accept a pro choice belief system to start with. Which you know we don't. And knowing we don't you should be able to appreciate that for us, it's not about not wanting to preserve women's rights, it's about an overriding concern for the child's rights. I understand that to you, there's is no child, but to us there is. And that's the person who's rights and life we are fighting for.

But so many times I get this sense that people on the pro choice side feel like we are lying. That secretly we know there is no child yet and that it's all just a pretext to control women's reproductive rights. And maybe for some people it is. But all the pro life people I've known and myself honestly do believe it. It's got nothing to do with the reproductive rights of women, it's got to do with the reproductive rights of women overriding the right for a human being to live.

And the reason I find it so personally upsetting is cause I know as understand that the to choice people are fighting for what they believe is a just cause for honest reasons and respect them for that even if I don't agree. But never do I feel like those sentiments are reciprocated.

Most of the time they just assume that all pro lifers are religious males, but that's not true. They want to frame it that way because they want a fight about reproductive rights. And it's easier to have it when you frame it that way. It gets a lot more complicated when it's pro life women or pro life atheists or agnostics. It doesn't fit the narrative.