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  • BDD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | negrogesic

suboxone feels half as effective as my subutex was ugh

J

Jvjs05

Bluelighter
Joined
Dec 10, 2015
Messages
82
Ok so 2 or 3 months back my doc I’ve been seeing for 3+ years had his office shut down oh my god I showed up for my once per month appt and office was empty and doors locked , this was a horrid lie experience I was on my last dose of subutex , I can’t even describe the hell I went thru , I even have HMO blue cross but NO ONE accepted it , no doctors had anything available for weeks even when I explained my situation no one cared to help. I even went to the ER thinking they would look up my history and surely help , WRONG they just gave me a dose of Ativan then sent me on my way refusing to help, but taking my 250 dollar cash visit. I could go on and on but the main poInt is after finally finding a doctor willing to help she refused to give me subutex which I was on for 1.5 yrs and tapered from 20mg to 2-4mg per day she gave me suboxone and it’s not even close to as effective for me. A whole 8mg strip seems to not work as well as my 4mg dose of subutex is this all in my head or has anyone else experienced the same kinda thing?
 
the one difference between subutex and suboxone is that suboxone also has a chemical in is called naltrexone.
yoy probably felt better on subutex which is just straight buprenorphine which is itself a highly potent and long-lasting narcotic (subs aren't clean lol),
whereas suboxone has the naltrex in it to counter-act those fuzzy feel-goods aka prevent abuse and may also make them feel different.
it could also have something to do with that taper she put you on
 
Well poor grammar but I actually said I did the taper myself on the subutex from 20mg to 2-4mg over a 1.5 year span , but even letting a whole 8mg strip dissolve doesn’t feel as effective as 2-4mg of subutex . But it’s to a point where I’m scared to bring It up or say something bc she could just decide I’m just trying to hop back and fourth between subutex and full opiates which by the way is jus as easy with suboxone but the suboxone is just not doing the trick like subutex is , I wish more doctors actually experienced what a w/d is like instead of just reading about it in a book b4 thru go switching up meds like this , she also gives me 30 less kpins per. Month and 30 less adderalls per month then what I was on for years and what WORKED perfectly fine , it just seems like they have their own agenda I’m thankful for her even seeing me but damn every month I’m anxious just going there feel like I never know what to expect now
 
it can often seem that your prescribing doctors are distant and uncaring but i assure you that 9 times of 10 they're really just trying to keep you alive.
in the UK you'd be so lucky to be on the meds you're on - especially competing medications - subs, benzos and amphetamines - ha, i envy you!
not trying to be a dick about it man, but maybe cutting down on all these meds wouldn't be that bad? who wants to subsist on these toxic cocktails their whole life? perhaps suggest to her that you'd prefer generic buperenorphine?
 
keeping said:
the one difference between subutex and suboxone is that suboxone also has a chemical in is called naltrexone.
yoy probably felt better on subutex which is just straight buprenorphine which is itself a highly potent and long-lasting narcotic (subs aren't clean lol),
whereas suboxone has the naltrex in it to counter-act those fuzzy feel-goods aka prevent abuse and may also make them feel different.
it could also have something to do with that taper she put you on
Click to expand...
I think you mean naloxone. That's the drug that's in suboxone. Hence the name. Its the same drug that is in narcan that reverses the effects of opiate overdose. Which is why suboxone doesn't really have any effect to it because the bupe and the naloxone counteract each other. While you won't be in W/D you also wont be high or able to get high. Maybe try Methadone if all they can give you is the suboxone kind now? If you do just don't go anything id say 40mg if you can. Not only can you still get high if you want to, its much easier to get off of at that low a dose.
 
It is rare for doctors to prescribe subutex. It's almost always suboxone. In certain cases of pregnant females they do, perhaps because this is a teratogen? I have never tried subutex but have always wanted to. In theory if taken sublingually the bupe is absorbed but the naloxone is not, but I guess you always swallow some.
 
^ in the UK its rare to get anything other than generic bupe on script from your doctor.
weird huh?
 
Yea well it doesn’t help that I also switched jobs recently and don’t have med insurance right now 30 suboxone strips=300 bux at pharmacy 30 subutex pills = 60 bux at pharmacy , just saying how is this not legal drug dealing ? 30 strips prolly cost less then 30 bux to make thats redicilous profits , more then any drug dealers I know profit ....
 
keeping said:
^ in the UK its rare to get anything other than generic bupe on script from your doctor.
weird huh?
Click to expand...

In any part of the world outside the reach of Big American Pharma, it's uncommon to see anything other than generic, stand-alone Buprenorphine (Subtutex). Even more weird, huh? ;). There have been many studies that imply that the Naloxone in Suboxone, when taken by the sublingual route, makes almost no difference whatsoever in effect or, for that matter, treatment outcomes. Allegedly, Suboxone in its entirety is nothing more than a Pharma scam to enable them to sell Buprenorphine at a hefty profit.
 
It’s so sad how it is here in the US, for so many reason and from so many different personal experiences I don’t trust doctors , pharmacies etc.... I told her I was on subutex for 1.5 years and it was working amazing , even it saved my life , and I was able to taper from 20mg per day to just 2 , but it’s like none of that mattered I was forced to either pay an absurd amoUnt on suboxone , or get nothing. Personally I wish every doctor who specializes in opiate addiction and writes scripts for these drugs should have to experience what a withdrawal is like, after all it was a DOCTOR who gave me opiates after a surgery when I was jus 20 yrs old and knew absolutely nothing about them , then filled my scripts for 4 or 5 months. Ugh I’m not saying I’m totally innocent but I truely had no idea what withdrawals were until I was told I didn’t need pain pills anymore. 9 years later and I struggle with opiate addiction and when I find something that finally worked was forced to take something that feels half as effective. What’s worse is I’m scared to even bring it up again bc they will just look at me like I’m a drug addict and fishing for my DOC , oxy was my doc not subutex. Ugh sorry for the long ass rant but I’m so frustrated right now
 
Many doctors have textbook knowledge and some knowledge through their patients, but my sub doctor has said some things that I knew were false or he didn't understand. I do think he generally cared though. Taking a drug and withdrawing from it is the best (and the worst) way to learn.
 
oh cool, your sub doc has been thru wd's himself? interestingggg
 
ObieWan said:
Many doctors have textbook knowledge and some knowledge through their patients, but my sub doctor has said some things that I knew were false or he didn't understand. I do think he generally cared though. Taking a drug and withdrawing from it is the best (and the worst) way to learn.
Click to expand...

Yea, I've often been really caught off guard by the limited nature of my prrescribers' pharmacology knowledge. I've had many MD's make what would seem like really fundamental mistakes with medication that is commonly prescribed. I had my PsyD tell me that Pregabalin (Lyrica) exerted its effects in the same way that Alcohol and Benzodiazepines do. It's not like this is coming from out of left field. These drugs all exert their effects in one way or another surrounding the GABA neurotransmitter, but it's pretty common knowledge that any idiot could find by reading a wikipedia article that Pregabalin and Gabapentinoids exert their effects through a completely different mechanism than the above stated drugs.

This would seem like a "who really cares?" type of situation, but my PsyD's limited knowledge came to bite me in the ass when I ended up re-entering a Methadone program and was told that the Pregabalin that I had been taking for months had the same potential to cause death when combined with Methadone as Benzodiazepines, which are a well known Grim Reaper of sorts for MMT patients. So, because I failed to correct him when I should've, my argument sounded more like the ravings of someone now wanting to get "cut off".

It's always been a crazy phenomenon to me, that is, the limited knowledge of some MD's. How can they go through so many years of intense study, medical school, internship, residency blah, blah, blah and then not have the time to read a simple Wikipedia article regarding some of the drugs that they have probably prescribed hundreds of times. I mean, the knowledge that I and my peers have acquired regarding drug use has been done in our "free time". It's not like this is even my job, but I constantly find myself being flabbergasted by the limited knowledge of some MD's. It's a thing, so don't feel extremely surprised when your Doctor makes what seems like a totally fundamental error with your medication.

Also, if your prescriber say, prescribes you a potentially dangerous combination of medication (that could, you know, kill you), it's like "oops, my bad". When you, as an addict make a mistake, the hammer comes crashing down.
 
My understanding of this matter (which I mostly learned from this site) is that the naloxone component of suboxone is basically irrelevant, as KR alluded to already. It gets blocked by bupe's stronger binding to the opioid receptors and basically has 0 effect.

I've seen some people argue on this site that they've had both suboxone and subutex and YES, there is in fact a difference, but perhaps these people just have some kind of high sensitivity to naltrexone, I dunno...

There seems to be a lot of questionable opinions given in regards to suboxone, like that it doesnt get people high (false) or that the naloxone is present as an IV deterent & it is impossible to get high on IV suboxone (also false). You see this sometimes even from "official sources") Someone above made the claim that the two ingredients block each other, that's another good example...as far as I know the bupe simply blocks out the naloxone.
 
Burnt Offerings said:
My understanding of this matter (which I mostly learned from this site) is that the naloxone component of suboxone is basically irrelevant, as KR alluded to already. It gets blocked by bupe's stronger binding to the opioid receptors and basically has 0 effect.

I've seen some people argue on this site that they've had both suboxone and subutex and YES, there is in fact a difference, but perhaps these people just have some kind of high sensitivity to naltrexone, I dunno...

There seems to be a lot of questionable opinions given in regards to suboxone, like that it doesnt get people high (false) or that the naloxone is present as an IV deterent & it is impossible to get high on IV suboxone (also false). You see this sometimes even from "official sources") Someone above made the claim that the two ingredients block each other, that's another good example...as far as I know the bupe simply blocks out the naloxone.
Click to expand...

Yea, I agree with the hypothesis that the Naloxone (Narcan) found in Suboxone (Buprenorphine) is probably experience "differently" by some folks due to maybe a negative reaction to the Naloxone. Like you Burnt, I've met several people who have Suboxone "allergy", whereas Subutex works fine. It's really shitty, because it's actually difficult to even get straight Buprenorphine in the United States, as the suppliers of Suboxone cornered the market early on and their marketing strategy has really stuck, at the expense of the consumers, both financially and physically. It's very sad that money is more important than human suffering to the pharmaceutical industry. These are people who allegedly have dedicated their life to mitigating human suffering.

I get angry just thinking about how callous these people are and how they claim to be just angelic.

"If you can't afford your medication ($700 a month) Pfizer may (will not) be able to help!".
 
Naloxone can cause really bad dependent edema if swallowed, or well injected with the bupe.
 
keeping said:
the one difference between subutex and suboxone is that suboxone also has a chemical in is called naltrexone.
yoy probably felt better on subutex which is just straight buprenorphine which is itself a highly potent and long-lasting narcotic (subs aren't clean lol),
whereas suboxone has the naltrex in it to counter-act those fuzzy feel-goods aka prevent abuse and may also make them feel different.
it could also have something to do with that taper she put you on
Click to expand...

I would echo burnt offerings point that this is actually quite untrue. While a few select individuals may have adverse reactions to the naloxone, it has no effect on the absorption of bupe. Even the manufacturers will say that with sublingual administration the naloxone has no impact, and instead touted its inclusion in the formulation as a way to deter IV abuse, which EVEN THEN is a false claim. If you look at the Ki binding affinity values for naloxone vs. bupe, they aren't even in the same ballpark (.559 vs .21 for the mu opioid receptor, respectively), in which case even if the naloxone is ingested it will be easily outcompeted by the bupe (given that the ratio of bupe to naloxone in formulations of suboxone, sub or strip, is 4-1~8mg for every 2mg).

I am adamant on this point due to the fact that the suboxone manufacturers use this as a way of maintaining their patent and swaying doctors towards their version over the much cheaper generics. I, as well as numerous others, have experienced doctors refusing to prescribe subutex because of its supposed "greater abuse potential", and have had to incur great financial cost or the inability to even afford our prescriptions due to this deliberate campaign of misinformation. (If you want to see evidence of this since I can't post prices, do a search for generic burprenorphine vs suboxone film on the GoodRX website and see what comes up).

So now you know.

Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buprenorphine#Pharmacology
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naloxone#Pharmacology
 
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