Phenobarbitone

[honeywhite]

I suffer from anxiety. Not panic attacks, but 2-3 day nail bite-a-thons. I've had the endless conversations with numerous doctors etc. Diazepam put me to sleep. Serax ditto. Librium is utterly inefficacious at normal doses; at huge doses that should knock an elephant out, they knock me out and after I wake up, I act super-drunk in the way you'd EXPECT a drunk to act. Last year, I was introduced to the one wonderful substance that worked: phenobarbitone. Well, turns out it's not the ONLY substance that works! Amylobarbitone (= amobarbital for you leftponders) has similar effects but lasts shorter and gives me (what a surprise!) hangovers. Pentobarbitone is just plain fun!

They produce effects that are, to me, indistinguishable from alcohol, in the way you'd expect ME to act (more talkative but can still hold a conversation, relaxed, etc). Phenobarbitone is still the original and best. Lasts forever, doesn't cloud up my mind, no hangover. Barbiturates do make me lean back when sitting; opioids make my head nod---you'll always know which I've taken by the way my body hits the chair.

If I didn't have access to pheno on prescription, the next-best is just plain liquor. Unfortunately that wreaks havoc on my stomach. Or (I suppose) the hydrate of chloral, but I'd have to buy or synthesise that (not a controlled drug here---not even considered a drug!) Also wreaks havoc on my stomach.

Doses: I'm up to 1000mg, not taken every day of course. Ten tablets. Usually with a bit of modafinil thrown in, and a litre of coffee or so, plus a moderate-to-high nicotine habit. DO NOT TAKE MY DOSE. Do not take anything CLOSE to my dose. 300mg is the maximum permissible pheno dose under normal circumstances. Unfortunately I have STILL run into the problems of tolerance but NOT dependence; I can quit using any time (and often do for weeks at a time) with no problems.

The one problem I have is the inability to walk in a straight fucking line, or to keep the car in the middle of the fucking lane. I normally limp (thanks, 18-wheeler that hit me); if I'm drunk on pheno (high is not a way to describe it), I shuffle. If I drive, I end up driving ON the line instead of BETWEEN them. I can imagine the thoughts of the other drivers.

Anyone else experience this?

 

[CFC]

I would think many experience an inability to walk straight and mild stupor on a dose like that. Have you ever tried anything for the anxiety with less potential to kill you - something like pregabalin?

 

[honeywhite]

I would think many experience an inability to walk straight and mild stupor on a dose like that. Have you ever tried anything for the anxiety with less potential to kill you - something like pregabalin?

This seems to be my experience with any dose I take, even on the order of 100mgs. Something about the -barbitones (barbitone itself too, which is even longer-acting than phenobarbitone and a bit more dangerous) seems to play with my motor neurones.

Pregabalin has GHB-like effects on me unfortunately, pins my pupils worse than opiates, and has a shorter duration of action. Pento and pheno (=Nembutal and Phenemal) are essentially mirror images; they have precisely the same effects but pento goes in with a bang and out with a bang, while pheno goes in with a whimper, out with a whimper.

I feel like the only alternative worth pursuing is plain old drinking alcohol. Unfortunately that does the same motor-neurone thing with me as the barbital class does, along with a shorter duration of action. I'd compare pento to Versed and pheno to Valium or possibly Klonopin, with the exception that barbiturates aren't sedative-hypnotics but rather pure sedatives.

 

[pally pete]

I suffer from anxiety. Not panic attacks, but 2-3 day nail bite-a-thons. I've had the endless conversations with numerous doctors etc. Diazepam put me to sleep. Serax ditto. Librium is utterly inefficacious at normal doses; at huge doses that should knock an elephant out, they knock me out and after I wake up, I act super-drunk in the way you'd EXPECT a drunk to act. Last year, I was introduced to the one wonderful substance that worked: phenobarbitone. Well, turns out it's not the ONLY substance that works! Amylobarbitone (= amobarbital for you leftponders) has similar effects but lasts shorter and gives me (what a surprise!) hangovers. Pentobarbitone is just plain fun!

They produce effects that are, to me, indistinguishable from alcohol, in the way you'd expect ME to act (more talkative but can still hold a conversation, relaxed, etc). Phenobarbitone is still the original and best. Lasts forever, doesn't cloud up my mind, no hangover. Barbiturates do make me lean back when sitting; opioids make my head nod---you'll always know which I've taken by the way my body hits the chair.

If I didn't have access to pheno on prescription, the next-best is just plain liquor. Unfortunately that wreaks havoc on my stomach. Or (I suppose) the hydrate of chloral, but I'd have to buy or synthesise that (not a controlled drug here---not even considered a drug!) Also wreaks havoc on my stomach.

Doses: I'm up to 1000mg, not taken every day of course. Ten tablets. Usually with a bit of modafinil thrown in, and a litre of coffee or so, plus a moderate-to-high nicotine habit. DO NOT TAKE MY DOSE. Do not take anything CLOSE to my dose. 300mg is the maximum permissible pheno dose under normal circumstances. Unfortunately I have STILL run into the problems of tolerance but NOT dependence; I can quit using any time (and often do for weeks at a time) with no problems.

The one problem I have is the inability to walk in a straight fucking line, or to keep the car in the middle of the fucking lane. I normally limp (thanks, 18-wheeler that hit me); if I'm drunk on pheno (high is not a way to describe it), I shuffle. If I drive, I end up driving ON the line instead of BETWEEN them. I can imagine the thoughts of the other drivers.

Anyone else experience this?

All that coffee and Modifanil will cause anxiety on it's own. Also, I read that Modifanil knocks Benzodiazepines off their receptor sites. Could possibly do the same to Phenobarbital?

As for harm reduction.... Don't drive under the influence.

 

[keeping]

jesus christ a couple of Daffys and a coffee would send me straight to A&E
then barbs on top? mate, you're putting your poor body through hell
quit the stims and switch to a less archaic sedative perhaps?

 

[honeywhite]

jesus christ a couple of Daffys and a coffee would send me straight to A&E
then barbs on top? mate, you're putting your poor body through hell
quit the stims and switch to a less archaic sedative perhaps?

The daffys and coffee are only to keep me awake through the night and possibly the following day, so I can be productive through two days and sleep through one. Yes, not healthy, I know. Drunken driving is also not healthy and I will not be repeating that stunt (it was driving someone to the hospital after a stroke).

All that coffee and Modifanil will cause anxiety on it's own. Also, I read that Modifanil knocks Benzodiazepines off their receptor sites. Could possibly do the same to Phenobarbital?

As for harm reduction.... Don't drive under the influence.

I feel the effects of the pheno whether I take stimulants that day or not. The anxiety does not occur on all the days I have stimulants; not even on most of them. It's usually precipitated by events (will my book be any good, will the stocks I'm investing in go down, etc). I've come to figure out that pheno (contrary to description above) is a light, but very light, hypnotic; taking it will assure I get to sleep at 10 sharp instead of at 4 in the morning, whether I like it or not. The coffee is mostly just to counteract that.

The barbs are the only really NECESSARY thing in this whole arsenal. Oh, I take Zomorph on top (also prescribed) for pain, but the opiate thing is a whole different animal altogether.

If only I could have a light sedative like pheno that didn't affect my ability to walk. Then I'd be golden. My doctor hasn't unfortunately had a whole lot of experience in using barbiturates for anxiety; when I asked her for pheno, she said, verbatim, "You want a *paediatric* anticonvulsant? Whatever FOR?" She has a seemingly irrational hate for amphetamine-class stimulants, though.

 

[Keif' Richards]

I don't typically judge people for their behavior, but the non-chalant way in which you're approaching driving under the influence is just not okay. It's not a "joke" that you cannot keep your lane because you are high on Barbiturates. You can easily kill someone. Has this even crossed your mind?! You seem to be more worried about the other drivers' personal opinion of you than the obvious fact that you could easily murder them with your vehicle. Jesus Christ.

There's nothing atypical about your case OP. Barbiturates exert all of the effects that you desire and experience. This is part of what makes them extremely dangerous and addictive. You are dabbling in very large doses as well. Barbiturates are not like Benzodiazepines; they can and do often kill individuals as a single intoxicant (no other drugs involved). As I said, if you read the wikipedia article regarding Phenobarbital or any other Barbiturate for that matter, you will find a clinical re-telling of basically everything that you have experience, so I don't understand where this thread could possibly lead.

 

[honeywhite]

I don't typically judge people for their behavior, but the non-chalant way in which you're approaching driving under the influence is just not okay. It's not a "joke" that you cannot keep your lane because you are high on Barbiturates. You can easily kill someone. Has this even crossed your mind?! You seem to be more worried about the other drivers' personal opinion of you than the obvious fact that you could easily murder them with your vehicle. Jesus Christ.

There's nothing atypical about your case OP. Barbiturates exert all of the effects that you desire and experience. This is part of what makes them extremely dangerous and addictive. You are dabbling in very large doses as well. Barbiturates are not like Benzodiazepines; they can and do often kill individuals as a single intoxicant (no other drugs involved). As I said, if you read the wikipedia article regarding Phenobarbital or any other Barbiturate for that matter, you will find a clinical re-telling of basically everything that you have experience, so I don't understand where this thread could possibly lead.

I think there is something atypical actually---two things, but it's buried under a whole load of waffle. Mea maxima culpa. 1 is the ataxia every single time I take this stuff, but I think we've established that there's no agent in existence that has the non-hypnotic, sedative effect while also being non-ataxic.

2 - and I realise I'm driving this thread off the rails... but it's the lack of hypnotic effect. I can stay awake on phenobarbitone. Other diethyl-malonyl esters also have the same effect - I can stay fully alert, fully awake under their influence, but ataxic with slight problems judging distances (hence the trouble driving - I drove fairly well, just didn't know where my wheels were, which led to me driving with my right wheels on the painted line). Benzodiazepine class sedatives are hypnotic. I do not like the hypnotic effect. Yes, I'm fully aware that my dose is fairly big---I've been using it for a year and a half off and on, have quit with no ill effects when there's a lack of situational stress.

2 in my opinion is atypical because every time I've read references to barbiturates and diethyl-malonyl esters, I've heard of people being sedated into non-functionality or "it didn't work". No in-between. "I won't take this &^*&^%* shit again!" is sadly typical, which is a shame, because I know that *barbitone is actually quite medically useful and even recreationally (it's solid alcohol---why wouldn't it be?). The doses too---how can someone get a sedative effect off anything less than 100mg? (One standard, adult tablet --- they are available also in 15, 200 and 300).

 

[Keif' Richards]

I understand that you're information has implied otherwise, but like I said, all of your problems are pretty common. Some people are going to be more likely to go to sleep when they're intoxicated and some will keep operating and doing things. It's just like Alcohol in so many ways. Don't some people have ten drinks and pass out on the couch, while some people have ten drinks go to the bar and fuck all night.

Ataxia is sort of a hallmark of Barbiturate intoxication. Where are you getting your information that what you're experiencing is atypical? The word Ataxia is listed as one of the utmost common effects of not only Phenobarbital, but Barbiturates in general. You are more likely to experience Ataxia as a symptom than not to, especially considering the fact that you're playing with 10 times the typical single dose of Phenobarbital. The fact that Phenobarbital is a longer-acting Barbiturate also lends to its being less hypnotic, which is why it is typically indicated for daytime use for conditions like epilepsy and drugs like Seco/Pento and to a lesser extent Amobarbital are used more frequently for their hypnotic effect.

The fact that you think you're totally alert and "in control" are basically a fallacy, illustrated by the fact that you can't walk straight or judge distances. It's the Alcohol/Benzo/Barbiturate fallacy that is so common among users. They are, as I said, "totally fine" and then they show up to Thanksgiving dinner and are drooling on their plate, falling into their soup and calling their girlfriend by a different name. You only think that you're totally in control. This is another aspect of what makes Barbiturates and Benzodiazepines so dangerous.

Much like yourself, people are "totally in control" get behind the wheel and end up either murdering a family of four in their minivan or with their car wrapped around a tree.

 

[keeping]

The fact that you think you're totally alert and "in control" are basically a fallacy, illustrated by the fact that you can't walk straight or judge distances. It's the Alcohol/Benzo/Barbiturate fallacy that is so common among users. They are, as I said, "totally fine" and then they show up to Thanksgiving dinner and are drooling on their plate, falling into their soup and calling their girlfriend by a different name. You only think that you're totally in control. This is another aspect of what makes Barbiturates and Benzodiazepines so dangerous.

Much like yourself, people are "totally in control" get behind the wheel and end up either murdering a family of four in their minivan or with their car wrapped around a tree.

forgive me for finding humour in this (very serious) point that Keif is making -
i remember being on clonazolam and thinking i was totally in control and everyone bloody knew what was up
especially when i plowed straight into the x-mas tree..
when you're on these things you're always the last one to know.
perhaps get someone to video you; its so eye-opening and also horrifying.

 

[honeywhite]

forgive me for finding humour in this (very serious) point that Keif is making -
i remember being on clonazolam and thinking i was totally in control and everyone bloody knew what was up
especially when i plowed straight into the x-mas tree..
when you're on these things you're always the last one to know.
perhaps get someone to video you; its so eye-opening and also horrifying.

That's the thing. I've actually skyped with someone, and they've said, and I quote, "Mum! Come look! Nick looks like he's sober for once!" (Never mind that the other times I was cold sober and simply couldn't bother to wash my face or comb my hair.) Clonazolam is a benzodiazepine. Of COURSE it's going to fuck with your head. Barbiturates (at least to me) don't. I never liked benzos because they played with my mind too much.

The barbs apparently don't do that, and I'm comparing long-acting with long-acting. Keif's caveats apparently apply to long-acting BENZOS (10mg valium WILL do that to me, and it's part of why I don't LIKE valium) but this little paediatric anticonvulstant actually seems to do the opposite.

My jobs are all purely mental. I could function on pheno and even on pento! but not on diazepam. I mean, I have to wear my glasses, but that applies whether I take a pill or ten or not. Apparently, muscle and oral co-ordination (the tongue is in fact a muscle and you'd EXPECT it to be affected) are in fact affected but mental isn't. I think I mumbled my way through a research paper yesterday, or rather, I know I did (same girl said, "You don't SOUND any different than you normally do!) on toxoplasmosis and its transmission in feline faeces.

 

[honeywhite]

I understand that you're information has implied otherwise, but like I said, all of your problems are pretty common. Some people are going to be more likely to go to sleep when they're intoxicated and some will keep operating and doing things. It's just like Alcohol in so many ways. Don't some people have ten drinks and pass out on the couch, while some people have ten drinks go to the bar and fuck all night.

Ataxia is sort of a hallmark of Barbiturate intoxication. Where are you getting your information that what you're experiencing is atypical? The word Ataxia is listed as one of the utmost common effects of not only Phenobarbital, but Barbiturates in general. You are more likely to experience Ataxia as a symptom than not to, especially considering the fact that you're playing with 10 times the typical single dose of Phenobarbital. The fact that Phenobarbital is a longer-acting Barbiturate also lends to its being less hypnotic, which is why it is typically indicated for daytime use for conditions like epilepsy and drugs like Seco/Pento and to a lesser extent Amobarbital are used more frequently for their hypnotic effect.

The fact that you think you're totally alert and "in control" are basically a fallacy, illustrated by the fact that you can't walk straight or judge distances. It's the Alcohol/Benzo/Barbiturate fallacy that is so common among users. They are, as I said, "totally fine" and then they show up to Thanksgiving dinner and are drooling on their plate, falling into their soup and calling their girlfriend by a different name. You only think that you're totally in control. This is another aspect of what makes Barbiturates and Benzodiazepines so dangerous.

Much like yourself, people are "totally in control" get behind the wheel and end up either murdering a family of four in their minivan or with their car wrapped around a tree.

So, in summing up and all judgements aside, the ataxia and the lack of hypnotic effect are down to the fact that I am taking diethyl-malonyl esters and not any other class of drug. Just like sleepiness is a hallmark of z-drugs and benzodiazepines, rather than amphetamines, barbiturates, opiates, or anything else. Figures. So, get a cane, lower the dose, and don't drive. Thanks.

PS: Information was from Erowid experience vaults. I know they're a bunch of hippies over there but sometimes this sort of anecdotal information is the best. Most barbiturate users were Fiorinal freaks though so to be taken cum grano salis as it were. There is one fellow who takes pento to get to sleep (?!) and amphetamine to dissipate the pento hangover (?!?!?!?!) which is essentially the same cocktail as I take but spaced out rather than at the same time.

I'd call Seco the most hypnotic of the barbiturate class and that is NOT saying much. I'd rather take Placidyl or just plain Valium or Mogadon for sleep.

 

[keeping]

what can i say, perhaps you're the exception.
but you do know barbiturates are much stronger than benzos, right?

you speak about being drunk on pheno though - so surely you're being affected by this drug?

 

[honeywhite]

what can i say, perhaps you're the exception.
but you do know barbiturates are much stronger than benzos, right?

you speak about being drunk on pheno though - so surely you're being affected by this drug?

Oh I am. Never denied that. It reduces anxiety and causes ataxia. Where I was confused was that barbital-class depressants are "aupposed" to cause sedation. They do not. The high dose is because I'm 6'6" and 200lbs. People half my weight have taken quarter my dose and promptly fallen asleep for 2 days.

It's what I WANTED from Vali and never got.


It affects me as does alcohol - I become more eloquent and a 10 minute conversation stretches out for hours, with addition of valuable content. Hence drunk as opposed to high.

I was wondering whether the lack of hypnotic effect, aside from secobarbitone, was common, and if a non-ataxic depressant existed.

 

[Keif' Richards]

OP, I'm sorry for hurting your feelings, but I absolutely do judge you for treating driving under the influence of drugs as a joke. I will shout it from the rooftops. I'm going to move one by one through your information.

Why would you make the comment that Z-Drugs and Benzodiazepines cause sleepiness, while Barbiturates and Opioids do not? It's just not true... You have repeatedly asked "is this normal?" and I've repeatedly told you, yes, it is indeed normal, what you're experiencing with Barbiturates.

Also, Phenobarbital is a "little pediatric anticonvulsant" like how Triazolam (Halcion) is just my "Grandma's little nerve pill". There's a reason Barbiturates have been discontinued in favor of Benzodiazepines. They are more dangerous, more addictive and dependence and withdrawal are potentially life-threatening experiences. The reason why you have Phenobarbital and most other people you know don't, are for this reason. The reason you like Barbiturates better than Benzodiazepines, is for this reason.

This last one is not intended to be offensive. I really think you have a very fundamental misunderstanding of the drugs that you are using. Did you digest the comment regarding being unaware of how intoxicated you truly are? So, that's great that you passed for sober in front of your family on a Skype call. Do you think you were fooling the other drivers on the freeway as you slowly meandered into their lane repeatedly at 70 miles per hour?

Thoughts?

 

[honeywhite]

OP, I'm sorry for hurting your feelings, but I absolutely do judge you for treating driving under the influence of drugs as a joke. I will shout it from the rooftops. I'm going to move one by one through your information.

Why would you make the comment that Z-Drugs and Benzodiazepines cause sleepiness, while Barbiturates and Opioids do not? It's just not true... You have repeatedly asked "is this normal?" and I've repeatedly told you, yes, it is indeed normal, what you're experiencing with Barbiturates.

Also, Phenobarbital is a "little pediatric anticonvulsant" like how Triazolam (Halcion) is just my "Grandma's little nerve pill". There's a reason Barbiturates have been discontinued in favor of Benzodiazepines. They are more dangerous, more addictive and dependence and withdrawal are potentially life-threatening experiences. The reason why you have Phenobarbital and most other people you know don't, are for this reason. The reason you like Barbiturates better than Benzodiazepines, is for this reason.

This last one is not intended to be offensive. I really think you have a very fundamental misunderstanding of the drugs that you are using. Did you digest the comment regarding being unaware of how intoxicated you truly are? So, that's great that you passed for sober in front of your family on a Skype call. Do you think you were fooling the other drivers on the freeway as you slowly meandered into their lane repeatedly at 70 miles per hour?

Thoughts?

I didn't actually meander into anyone's lane. I kept my wheels directly on the white line. The only reason I mentioned it (and I won't do it again) is because I used to swear at drivers who didn't keep the car precisely in the centre of their lane. Already said twice I am not driving again if I've taken pheno or any other *barbital, for harm reduction purposes.

I put unusual emphasis on the word "paediatric" because it's not *licenced* for use on adults this side of the Pond. While a doctor might legally give a 15-year-old teenager, say, phoenytoin for depression (which ALSO hasn't been licenced), it's not in our NHS Handbook (like your PDR). That said, I am just now coming off 1500 mg (?!?!?!?!?!) of Nembutal after glorious, glorious sleep at the wrong time of day. Phoenytoin is... by the way... an anticonvulsant but to be used in adult epileptics only (wrong indication, wrong patient). Even Nembutal isn't meant for epilepsy. Here we have a choice of paraldehyde in a plastic syringe or pheno in children (they both have a risk of SJS and not much else) or valproex, valium, clonazepam (mmm, klonopin), topamax, pregabalin, etc in adult fit throwers. Paral melts glass and MUST be given in plastic within 5 minutes (structurslly relsted to formaldehyde). Out of those, I'd go for the pheno in kids (reason given being proven eficacy) and pregabalin or valium in adults. Phoenitoin for status epilepticus. I would never, EVER script for Topamax and I have good reasons not to. That said, 1.5g(?!?!?!!) of the yellow bombers DID put me to sleep, so yes, it IS a sleep agent but an unreliable one (Valium = good night's sleep, every time). Do not drive on epileptic drugs. Sulfonal is our only pure sleep drug (won't "break" a seizure) but who'd prescribe it these days?!

In fact, the tablets have been so good to me I've run out and the chemist (pharmacist in americanese) is under directions to bring one more bottle and not to disturb the dog (I was only half-serious about the last one, who cares about a Jack Russell terrier?)

PS, I'm a lawyer with former career hopes of becoming a neurologist (not when I saw the salary). You can NEVER insult me, even if you call me the bastard offspring of Lucifer and some kind of whore. I mean, that'd make me a Nephilim, which is pretty cool, but still, my point stands.

 

[honeywhite]

OP, I'm sorry for hurting your feelings, but I absolutely do judge you for treating driving under the influence of drugs as a joke. I will shout it from the rooftops. I'm going to move one by one through your information.

Why would you make the comment that Z-Drugs and Benzodiazepines cause sleepiness, while Barbiturates and Opioids do not? It's just not true... You have repeatedly asked "is this normal?" and I've repeatedly told you, yes, it is indeed normal, what you're experiencing with Barbiturates.

Also, Phenobarbital is a "little pediatric anticonvulsant" like how Triazolam (Halcion) is just my "Grandma's little nerve pill".

Unless Halcion has been discontinued for EVERYONE except geriatric patients (hence the reference to "Grandma") I fail to see the relevance.

As for benzos causing drowsiness and opiates and barbs not... well, I know benzo patients, and I know barb and opiate patients. The latter group is normal (the smackheads get narrow pupils and are known for fainting on the loo but such is the price of doing business) while benzo and antipsychotic pts end up... well, best not described. Hyperhidrosis of the mouth, intoxication worse than that of alcohol, etc.

 

[keeping]

^ halcion was widely Rx'd a fair time ago - but these days is a rarity, hence an older person would be the only one still with legally obtained halcion.
its really, really rare but was common 25 years ago.

also, nice one for belittling 'smackheads' but feel totally okay for weaving thru lanes in your car like its nothing :/

 

[honeywhite]

^ halcion was widely Rx'd a fair time ago - but these days is a rarity, hence an older person would be the only one still with legally obtained halcion.
its really, really rare but was common 25 years ago.

also, nice one for belittling 'smackheads' but feel totally okay for weaving thru lanes in your car like its nothing :/

I take opiates myself and my family owns the little plot in Didcot that is used to grow them in England. If I belittled those that used the juices of P. somniferum and related flowers, I'd be belittling myself. I even ended up doing my laundry and everyone else's laundry, then everyone's dishes, cue the college servant, "You DO know this wing has dishwashers, right?"

Before everyone is curious, the agent I use for pain is morphine, 1/3 gr., morning and night.

So halcion is kinda like new-school pheno. I had to talk my very young doctor through it. "You want a paediatric anticonvulsant for WHAT?" "For adult sedation. It's not a benzodiazepine." "Well this is what I give to epileptic children but it's not really a sedative. Come back when you run low."

 

[Keif' Richards]

Honeywhite, I'm actually not trying to insult you. I'm trying to get you to a point where you are insulted by your own behavior, without my aid. This has followed a predictable course, I'm sorry to say. Generally, when people lose all other cards that they could play intellectually, they start trying to come at us with their career and how we should listen to them because they are a doctor, a lawyer a "scientist" (my personal favorite) or what have you. We don't have respect for people on the forums because of what they do for work during the day. In fact, unless it's relevant, we don't give a shit at all.

This is worrisome, because I feel like you honestly don't feel that there's anything wrong with what you're doing. You're childishly trying to portray me as some kind of bully toward you because I chastised you for treating human life as a joke. I'm sorry that you feel bullied. If I am understanding your point correctly, you're saying "I don't have control of my vehicle, but only until I get to the white line, at which point, I automatically will correct myself every time". The point is, you do not have full control of the vehicle in the first place or you would not be on the white line.

Are you really trying to imply that Paraldehyde "Melts Glass"? Again, dude, this just is not true.

"I know Benzo patients, and I know opiate and barb patients. The latter group is normal..." I'm not sure what that means. Use your superior skills of explanation to explain to us lowly intellectual peons what "normal" means in your mind?

Please, please, please stop disseminating information to the community until you have a better understanding of what you're talking about. It could be dangerous. You've stated a lot of items as fact that are either dubious or utterly incorrect and we are dealing with peoples' lives here. Phenobarbital is indeed a sedative. I don't know how many times you need to be corrected on this issue. Your point that Phenobarbital is an anticonvulsant, not a sedative is like me saying a dog has four legs, not ears.