Study Ketone Supplementation Hampers Performance

CFC

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So ketone supplementation has been a thing for a while now, and touted by some as aiding in fatloss and enhancing performance.

This study may make you reconsider:

Nutritional ketone salts increase fat oxidation but impair high-intensity exercise performance in healthy adult males.
2017 Oct

Abstract

This study investigated the impact of raising plasma beta-hydroxybutyrate (β-OHB) through ingestion of ketone salts on substrate oxidation and performance during cycling exercise. Ten healthy adult males (age, 23 ? 3 years; body mass index, 25 ? 3 kg/m2, peak oxygen uptake, 45 ? 10 mL/(kg?min)-1) were recruited to complete 2 experimental trials. Before enrollment in the experimental conditions, baseline anthropometrics and cardiorespiratory fitness (peak oxygen uptake) were assessed and familiarization to the study protocol was provided. On experimental days, participants reported to the laboratory in the fasted state and consumed either 0.3 g/kg β-OHB ketone salts or a flavour-matched placebo at 30 min prior to engaging in cycling exercise. Subjects completed steady-state exercise at 30%, 60%, and 90% ventilatory threshold (VT) followed by a 150-kJ cycling time-trial. Respiratory exchange ratio (RER) and total substrate oxidation were derived from indirect calorimetry. Plasma glucose, lactate, and ketones were measured at baseline, 30 min post-supplement, post-steady-state exercise, and immediately following the time-trial. Plasma β-OHB was elevated from baseline and throughout the entire protocol in the ketone condition (p < 0.05). RER was lower at 30% and 60% VT in the ketone compared with control condition. Total fat oxidation was greater in the ketone versus control (p = 0.05). Average time-trial power output was ∼7% lower (-16 W, p = 0.029) in the ketone condition. Ingestion of ketone salts prior to exercise increases fat oxidation during steady-state exercise but impairs high-intensity exercise performance.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28750585



Ah - but they burned more fat you say. Well, as Anthony Roberts points out in his blog (worth a look):

Total fat oxidation was greater with ketone use ,  but here's where things get a bit confusing if you're someone who does timed cardio (i.e. half an hour on the treadmill or stairmaster). This study used total calories burned as the end point of the time trial, meaning both the ketone and placebo group burned the same amount of calories (but it took the ketone group longer).

You're burning a higher percentage of your energy from fat with ketone use, but you're also using less energy. So you're burning a higher percentage of a lower number  - which intuitively isn't the best tradeoff.

In other words, if you're happy to spend time exercising less efficiently, then exogenous ketones may have some utility purely for fatloss (reduction in performance aside). But for most, that's just not a realistic or desirable trade-off.
 
Interesting and good read, thanks.

I actually work on product formulation as a part time job for a nutrition company and (successfully) fought them on releasing a ketone "fat burner" but hadn't seen this. Might help later on
 
I wanted to say it was useless, but if you're cutting and happy to just go for slow ambling walks at night to burn mostly just fat, maybe with some Frag thrown in etc, then it may have some utility I guess. But then again there's a million other options too, and in a tough marketplace performance-retarding is pretty offputting...
 
Wondering why pro cyclists (like on the tour right now) are known to take ketones if it can be detrimental? Placebo maybe?


There is a growing body of evidence amongst extreme endurance athletes that once fully keto adapted there is considerable benefit in performance and personal bests..
Unfortunately it can take from 3-6 months to become fully keto adapted..
 
Yeah I’ve looked at the whole keto thing before. Seems to really work for a lot of people. Not sure I could do it myself in all honesty. I like grains too much haha
 
Yeah I’ve looked at the whole keto thing before. Seems to really work for a lot of people. Not sure I could do it myself in all honesty. I like grains too much haha

Grains are no longer looked upon as a healthy food option.. WGA is particularly bad in some people, as is the amount of calories and subsequent insulin spike..
 
Grains are no longer looked upon as a healthy food option.. WGA is particularly bad in some people, as is the amount of calories and subsequent insulin spike..
Quinoa, brown rice, oats?

Surely not all of these staple foods are bad? I’m quite happy with my plant based diet and don’t plan to switch in the foreseeable future. Ofc what works for me won’t work for everyone else and vice versa
 
Thanks for the links.
That is the info i was looking for all last week.
 
@Genetic Freak would you perhaps know anything about inducing a fasted state (and then exercising) to build fat adaptation as opposed to the ketogenic state? I’ve been exploring this recently and I have felt some very beneficial effects in the short term but I’m unsure if there’s any science behind this
 
It goes back to an unalterable point made by vegans- look at your teeth. What are they made for? What do they resemble? The answers are: for eating grain, and, Like a horse's. Ever see a horse eat meat?

as for Primoz-Roglic/Jumbo-Vismas - you think thats done naturally? Really? Or do you think they are using whatever fad diet trend as a fig leaf and nudge-wink comic relief to the in-crowd? I know what I think.
 
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Human teeth are actually adapted for omnivorous eating. Obligate herbivores tend to have flat teeth and more molars (some lack canines and/or incisors entirely), whereas obligate carnivores have sharper, pointed teeth and more developed incisors/canines. Humans and other omnivores have a balance, we have molars that are useful for grinding plant material, but we also have developed incisors as well.

I don't know where you got the idea horses have similar dentition to humans, Some horses lack canine teeth, and in the horses which do have them, they are almost vestigial.
This is a self evident statment to me, but the animal with the most similar teeth is the chimpanzee, which also is an omnivore. All the apes have the same dental formula as humans, actually.

Humans are starchovores.
The problem is, starch rich plants are not nutritionally complete. Protein, iron, vitamin B12, are all nutrients that can be deficient in vegan diets. It just so happens that meat provides all these nutrients...
 
The problem is, starch rich plants are not nutritionally complete.
True, alone they are certainly not complete. But paired with a solid mixture of different plants it's not hard to hit these, if one wants to. A cereal grain + a legume provide all essential amino acids and this is not a hard pairing to make. Whole wheat bread + peanut butter, rice + beans, etc. all fit the bill B12 being the exception which must be supplemented (a lot of cattle are given b12 supplements actually)

For example: 1 cup of lentils + 1 cup of basmati rice = 60% of your daily iron intake + 48 g protein.

source: i read the labels in my pantry

but yeah the teeth argument makes no sense lol
 
True, alone they are certainly not complete. But paired with a solid mixture of different plants it's not hard to hit these, if one wants to. A cereal grain + a legume provide all essential amino acids and this is not a hard pairing to make. Whole wheat bread + peanut butter, rice + beans, etc. all fit the bill B12 being the exception which must be supplemented (a lot of cattle are given b12 supplements actually)

For example: 1 cup of lentils + 1 cup of basmati rice = 60% of your daily iron intake + 48 g protein.

source: i read the labels in my pantry

but yeah the teeth argument makes no sense lol
And even then, the pairings you mentioned only exist because of the convenience of commercial agriculture lol.
Whether people like it or not, we are omnivores and we can actually get everything from animal sources including vitamin c (raw organ meat like liver) as is seen in inuit populations. Also can be seen with our digestive tract. We lack the enzymes to break down cellulose. Yet we have all the enzymes needed to breakdown animal protein. Also obligate herbavores have chambered stomachs which we do not or a gizzard like organ to assist in breaking down plant matter.
 
And having access to cheap enough meat to eat it every day is another wonder of commercial agriculture lol

I agree %100 that humans evolved as omnivores. That said I think we can ALL agree here that the human body can be adapted to incredible lengths. My goals just so happen to be eating plants and running fast :)

I know I kinda popped off in that plant based thread I made lol I was just kinda fed up with someonei know irl who constantly questions my diet and I needed to vent a little. Digging into research papers about it helped me learn a lot too. Sorry if I’ve ever come across as condescending about it, vegan can be real assholes - trust me I know haha


If I was trying to put on large amounts of muscle mass like most people in SIED my strategies would almost certainly hinder me. Endurance is just fundamentally a very different kind of fitness
 
And even then, the pairings you mentioned only exist because of the convenience of commercial agriculture lol.
How about the old classic trio of corn, beans, and squash? As I learned it, these plants complement each other both agriculturally and nutritionally.
Wiki: The three crops benefit from each other. The maize provides a structure for the beans to climb, eliminating the need for poles. The beans provide the nitrogen to the soil that the other plants use, and the squash spreads along the ground, blocking the sunlight, helping prevent the establishment of weeds. The squash leaves also act as a "living mulch", creating a microclimate to retain moisture in the soil, and the prickly hairs of the vine deter pests. Corn, beans, and squash contain complex carbohydrates, essential fatty acids and all nine essential amino acids.

Just because a modern balanced vegetarian/vegan diet would not be achievable 5000 years ago, doesn't mean very much. There are plenty of foodstuffs and supplements that can provide the nutrients that a strict vegan diet lacks - for instance B12 can be found in some mushrooms, seaweed (purple nori is apparently a good source of B12[ref]), algae, and fermented foods like tempeh or natto. Still, you have to go out of your way to include such a source in your vegan diet, and such sources are more expensive and less accessible than meat (or even "synthetic" vitamin supplements).

In my opinion, a diet consisting mostly of plant material with the addition of moderate portions of meat (ideally whatever's on sale at the time) will fulfill all your nutritional requirements while also allowing some opportunities for creativity. (I don't know about you but I find substituting tofu for meat leaves a lot to be desired.)

Sometimes people gravitate towards vegetarianism for an economic reason, that is to say, it is much cheaper to prepare a meal of vegetables rather than a meat-based meal that could cost many times more expensive (A plate of rice and beans costs under a dollar, while a middle-of-the-road rib eye steak alone is easily $5 or more, minimum). However, there are plenty cuts of meat to choose from. If you know what you're doing you can easily make a delicious entree with the cheapest cuts. Spend the $20 on ground beef instead of a filet mignon and you have dinner for a whole week.

Oh also, try to find a bespoke butcher to buy your meat off of. Not only can you ask for specific cuts of meat, but they can tell you what's good. Try getting some chuck steak or brisket ground into burger - you will never buy supermarket extra lean ground beef again.
 
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