METHADONE TAPER??? oops!!

[ogtommy]

Hi everybody!! New member. Read a lot of posts over the years for information. Been an on/off opiate addict for 20 years. Had to kick cold turkey many many times at Her Majestys Pleasure but now it's about time I did it myself. No real reason other than the fact that im sick of being like this. I want to get in shape.I want to go back to school.I dont want to be tied to Methadone. Its been like that for 3 years now since I started methadone. Over the years Ive always used methadone to do a quick taper to get off of Heroin.Especially if I had to travel out of the country. Id get 7 bottles of 30ml and drink a bottle a day for 3 days to let it build up and let the Heroin leave my body and then i would drink half a bottle filling it back up with water. the next day drink half a bottle filling it back up with water. on and on it would go til i was down to some miniscule amount like 0.0005ml. It worked. No real withdrawals. Had a few benzos for a week to help with sleep and some alcohol once the benzos were done and I was good.
Problem is now i've been on methadone for so many years i dont think my 7 day taper will work...lol....
ive been reading badgirlbarbies posts and it inspired me. it inspired me so much that i followed her plan...by the time she start going into acute withdrawal it was too late for me. I'm already commited to this and knowing withdrawals are comming for me makes it so much worse.
so....... i was hoping the more experienced users that have been through this can help me come up with a good plan?
I'll write down all the meds i have, then what i've taken so far and hopefully people can weigh in and help me do this the best way possible with what i got.
I really appreciate any help given because if i dont have a clear plan and wing it, the smallest ache or pain with send me doubling my dose....

Ok, so this is what i have left

Methadone: 205ml
Morphine sulphate: 15mgx600 pills
Gabapentine:300mgx1000 pills
clonazepam: 0.5mg x 10
alprazolam: ????cant find it..shit i think i through it out.ill look again later
nortryptyline hcl: 25mg x 300

Now here's my taper so far....

3 years on methadone ranging from 38ml the lowest a year ago to 80ml the highest the past year. I've been drinking 10ml's less for the past 3 months(except thursday where they watch me drink) and the past month ive been only drinking 60ml's except thursdays which again they watch me drink.
so last thursday i have to see my pharmacist to get my weekly dose that's drank there plus my 6 take home bottles. I drank 80 that day plus I had 50ml in the morning. The reason so much was that Ive been weening myself off slowly for a few months. But i need my drink first thing in the morning 7am.i cant get to the pharmacy until around 2pm so all week i save a little bit every day until thursday morning i wake up and drink some of my saved drink. I guess the 50ml+80ml + reading badgirlbarbies post pushed me over the top to cut down.
Thursday 130ml +6beers
Friday 50ml +6 beers
saturday 40ml +6 beers
sunday 35ml + 75mg morphine 6hrs later +6 beers
monday 30ml + 75mg morphine 6hrs later +6 beers
tuesday 25ml + 75mg morphine 6hrs later and another 75mg 5 hrs later +6beers
wednesdy 20ml + 75mg morphine 6hrs later and another 75mg 4 hrs later +6beers ****started feeling squeamish,distant,restless
thursday 20ml+ 75mg morphine 2hrs later and another 75mg 4 hrs later and another 75mg 8 hrs later +6 beers ***more squeamish,distant,restless
friday 19ml + 75mg morphine right away ***getting more pronounced but not sever yet. Just my head seems distant and getting that shit taste in my mouth. cant wait for beer


so i drink everyday for 3 years now. never drank before in my life but i find on methadone by 9pm it has worn off and the alcohol helps me sleep like a baby. I usually start drinking after 3 pm. usually 4 or 5 but as of Wednesday 3pm beer takes the restlessness and anxiety away. I drink 6 beers a day max and it helps right away

Now, i know i have enough methadone to make a run down to 0 with a few mls left over if i go 1ml a day and substitute morphine for methadone. even if i have to take 20 morphine's a day i do have enough for at least a months worth + a lot more if i really need more morphine. I read in a lot of these threads that switching from methadone to morphine is preferable and then tapering off morphine or going back to methadone for a 7 day taper is better.
I also read with conflicting studies about dosing from methadone to morphine is extremely difficult and no doctors know anything definitely about it but usually it goes 4-8X the methadone dose. I settled around 6x and figured id go up or down as needed.

ok, so here i am . that's me and my attempt to stop methadone. Looking for any guidance

Thank you so much,
tommy

 

[cj]

Is a ml equal to a mg? What dose of methadone holds you? What badBarbies done is a really poor idea and I just can't recommend it as a safe way to get off methadone. Plus your situation is very different then hers. In my opinion and you can take it for what it's worth your setting yourself up to relapse on heroin. Because at the end of the taper your going to be very sick for at least a month with post acute withdrawal lasting way longer then that.

You would be much better served doing a long taper and gradually lowering your dose.

 

[ogtommy]

Thank you for your honesty and i do believe you are right. Although i havent done heroin for 4 or 5 years I do remember how easy it is to fall back into that pattern of use.
So let me just clarify something and you can take it as you will. Maybe it's all in my head and I'm about to drive off the road, but here goes....
im quiting. im leaving the country once again and got alot of things to deal with when i get there. so i dont have a choice.....im doing this. been there, done that, wrote a book.... but never on methadone as a opiate. i know its a lot more longer acting/half life whatever you wanna call it than other opiates so it takes longer to detox off of it. Cool, no problem... but what i do remember is several people in barbies thread commenting on how she shoupd 0f switched to morhpine should of got gabapentin and comfort meds etc etc. I can get whatever I need but I think what i got should be adequate no? what if i have no choice and have to stop? what if the world is going to end if it dont stop? is there any formula i can use to quit then?
like i said... googling methadone to morhpine conversion pulls up a lot of theories and hypothesis... HAS ANYONE GOT EXPERIENCE WITH THIS?
I'm 40 yrs old and been/done things y'all don't want to know about so please take off the kid gloves and tell me straight up if you have an answer. Is 6mg/ml right? any idea if 10mg/ml going to work? I dont want to have a hard time coming off morphine down the road but shit, If i need 20mg per ml of methadone im pretty sure i can do it. The point is to taper down quickly/painlessly as possible.
Cj, you a moderator and have given some pretty good suggestions in barbies thread that i've followed, so it seems to me like you might have an idea............anything? either way im doing this, with or without bluelight..that's the way it's been my whole life. i was just hoping this forum actually gave a shit a little more than most places.

peace

oh btw,
5 more morhpines @ 2 + 5 more morphines @8 + 6 beers and i feel ok. Not great anymore, actually pretty shitty, but i dont want to start popping pills for the sake of getting high

 

[ogtommy]

i forgot to mention, i told my doctor yesterday im off methadone. going to kick it from 50 down to 0. he said he can prescribe me a sedative for 7 days if needed to take with me overseas. i told him id let him know how it went.
just wanted to ask you one more thing about what you said cj.... so im going to go into post acute withdrawal for a month. would 1000mg morhpine a day be enough to combat that? how about 2000mg? we got to draw the line somewhere and say that my methadone addiction has become a morhpine addiction and then i can work on lowering that considering it's been 3 years since ive done any other opiate. I actually have more than 1000 15mg morphines but im not suppose to use them all cause they dont all belong to me but whatever, ill pay the difference if need be.
I want to turn my long lasting methadone addiction into morhpine......anybody know the dosing?
6mg morhpine per mil of methadone?
8mg morhpine per mil of methadone?
10? 20? there has to be an equation or an uppermost limit if need be to start at.
I dont work, im retired. Won a big ass lawsuit for a carfire years ago that got me on this stupid ass shit so i can buy whatever i need / spend all the time in bed need be.
I'm hoping somebody here has the experience to guide me in the right direction. that's it. I wont take any offence if people dont know. DOCTORS DONT KNOW..... BUT here's hoping

 

[cj]

Ight. Well yeah comfort meds are obviously going to help. Lyrica, gabapentin, Valium or any benzos, clonidine, ketamine, weed, all those can be effective a combination of all of them will be most effective.

As far as how much morphine to hold you I honestly don't know but I'm sure you can find an opiate conversion chart if you Google. That said I don't think you'll need more than 200mg of morphine a day to stay well. But it depends on your methadone dose per day. Personal experience I am on 150mg of methadone a day but I haven't had to kick it and sincerely hope I don't have too. The thought of it makes me panic honestly. But the mind is a powerful tool and if your determined I'm sure it is doable. People have done crazier things.

Watch out for dehydration that's what will kill you. If your spewing fluid from every hole you need to hit up the hospital for an IV.

Hope that helps. There's no magic bullet that I've ever heard of. You just gotta suffer through it. Though I too have read the theory of switching to morphine and tapering down. The fact that I have never read a success story of that method tells me alot about it's actual effeciancy.

 

[ogtommy]

fuck. thats not what i wanted to hear. ok, so let me ask you one more thing and I REALLY REALLY APRECIATE taking the time to answer.
i have gabapentin. how much and how often? clonazepam? how much and how often? is there any recipe?
There was several people commenting in barbies threads about "how much comfort meds you have?" "you need this and that"
well i got everything under the sun if need be. what would of been different if she had my meds? is there nothing that can help with all my meds in post 1.
I so understand what you are saying about relapsing and i would say the same thing if i was in your position, but im not you or anyone else . Im me and i HAVE to do this. TRIGGER is pulled, deal with the consequences. DOn't worry im not going to whine and complain and snivel if that's whats bothering you. I man up more than anybody can ever know, but what I DONT KNOW is a recipe for this. Seeing how people kept commenting in barbies thread, who has pretty close same length of methadone use/taper as me and everyone kept telling her "you should of switched to morhpine" (i have a shit-load of morphine) "you should get some gabapentin"(i got a shitload of gabapentin) "you should get some sedatives"( i got some although very few) so what's the problem. Im not asking you to tell me im going to be ok or not relapse. Im not even asking you for answer if you dont know. Im asking ANYBODY WHO KNOWS WITH MY DRUGS IN THE FIRST POST WHAT IS MY BEST CHANCE OF GETTING OFF METHADONE? anybody know what the best recipe will be? if not, no big deal...im doing this and i know ive been around the block a lot more than most people . Just here's hoping.
thank you for anyone who reads this and takes the time to respond...
thank you cj for you respons

 

[ogtommy]

just so it's out in the open. ive been on 80ml of methadone for 3 years. 3 months ago i tapered down to 70ml and a month ago 60mls. no other opiates for 3 years other than morphine when i had a motorcycle accident 2 summers ago and only used that for 2 weeks at 100mg x3 times a day to make myself happy lying in bed ....

 

[cj]

I like gabapentin and have a massive tolerance to prove it so I would take 800mg spread out over 2 hours 3 times a day. But with all that morphine I don't think you will be sick at all. It will just be a matter of eating enough morphine until your well. Establish what dose that happens at and taper slowly from there. It really should be painless. Your in a good position I would like to have that much morphine on hand honestly. You can use the benzos to cushion any discomfort as you taper down.

There really isn't a recipe you just play with the doses until u find what works for you.

 

[ogtommy]

ok thank you for your help.
i have been planning this a really long time because i knew this overseas trip was comming. Thats the reason ive managed to save up so much meds. Morphine in itself dose nothing for me. on 80ml's methadone i could eat a 100 of them and not even catch a nod.. trust me i tried a few years back. anyways thanks again.
all the best

 

[ogtommy]

shit, i just had a revelation..... what if i just stopped the methadone (im at 18mg today) and just kept popping morhpine. titrated myself up or down as needed and just kept the same morphine dose for like 2 weeks. is that enough time to get the methadone out of my system and then i can start cutting it down since this should technically be painless? or is there some receptors that morphine cant fill when your getting off methadone so it will still be withdrawls present? How long does it usually take to have all the methadone out of your system?

 

[Jabberwocky]

It's really difficult to transition to a shorter acting opioid from a long acting one, where the short acting one is used to detox. I'm sorry I don't have any real advice for you about this, other than to look into sourcing some buprenorphine to help you detox. One of the nice things about methadone compared to morphine is that with the methadone you only have to dose once a day, whereas with the morphine you might need to dose twice.

Basically I just wanted to relate that this sounds really difficult. The other thread you mentioned OP is similarly not exactly ideal circumstances.

There is no way what you are suggesting will be painless. It might be doable, but it will be very difficult, or at least as difficult as it would be otherwise continuing to just taper the methadone.

Theoretically you can take enough morphine to mask the methadone's acute withdrawal, but that sounds a lot easier than it actually is. You need to find the right dose of morphine for one thing, as well as the right dosing schedule to keep you from getting sick AND to avoid over doing the morphine and picking up a habit. Basically it is going to be really difficult.

Tramadol would be preferable to morphine to detox from methadone, as it is a little easier to use and more forgiving. But buprenorphine is really far preferable to tramadol or morphine to facilitate the final transition off methadone.

Acute withdrawal from methadone takes about two weeks.

Buprenorphine, gabapentin, clonidine, diazepam, a sleep aid, IBU, etc - all these will be helpful comfort meds. Morphine not as much, even if it is better than nothing. Morphine is just really hard to self administer as a comfort med.

 

[somnilicious]

First off you should not have started taking the morphine on top of the methadone. It should have been saved for after. With methadone it isn't the amount of comfort drugs you have that will make the difference of being able to switch to your short acting morphine but the speed with which you taper. You must taper as slow as possible, taking time to pause at doses to stabilize as you go down. Once you get somewhat stabile on doses at or below the 5mg mark than the transition to morphine will be a hell of a lot easier. I actually haven't taken morphine outside of poppy pods in 20yrs so I can't really comment on it's relative potency but you need to taper the methadone slowly.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Very well said somni. I'm really glad you are hear to help out in SL

 

[cj]

Why would tramadol be preferable to morphine? It has a ceiling dose because of the siezure risk where as morphine doesn't. I think the strategy OP is talking about is to get addicted to morphine in place of methadone because the withdrawals are considered quicker.

 

[ogtommy]

shit!!! well, after 5x15mg in the morning and 5x15mg at 1pm (the space in between is getting NOTICICEABLY shorter) I had a lightning bolt of cold/hot sweats out of the blue and by knees started giving in ( they have been re-constructed years ago so i am very very perceptive to the slightest agitation) so I guess 10 days i can say that it started. I fought off taking 5 more morhpines for the sake of not ramping up to an unlimited amount of morhpine and tried to wait til 6pm....i made it til 5pm before caving but im still more functional than i expected...
i want to thank everyone for chiming in. I know i kind of jumped without looking thinking that if barbie was doing it so can i. i just dont want to back off unless i'm physically ready to give up because i will not try this again for a few more years and will have to pass on an important trip coming up.
I completely understand what your saying toothepastedog...i dont think i should of tapered like i did and i know im probably trading in methadone for morphine but at this point i can live with that if i dont end up with a 2000mg/day morhpine habbit (been there/done that) and my cousin is a doctor overseas so there is hope for buprenorphine but definately not here. Ive asked for almost 2 weeks someone can find me some or some subs but no luck.
I do have Fentanyl 100mcg * 10 in about a week and a half but id rather not put one on unless really necessary. they are not only worth too much but i really enjoy them so i've avoided them for a few years now.
I am dedicated to this and I know ive told myself 1000's of times in the past but when shit hits the fan, or your underwear literally while your puking, it's easy to just go back on methadone and wait for some *other* situation that will be better except it never seems to come for me.
If i added the option of fentanyl or hydromorphine (12mg &/or/ 8mg) will that help any? ive missed at least 3 days of methadone now so im down to 20 mg if i go back and considering i'm at 18mg doesnt leave much to be desired other than 3 days later i can go up another 5-10mls.
the only thing that has been really helping me so far has been the beer... was never a drinker but i think with methadone/(maybe all opiates, i dont know) there seems to be this symbiotic relationship that numbs/depresses/supresses my cns and brain enough that i can forget about knees/sweats/racing thoughts enough that it's kind of bearable...
i feel stupid for starting the morhpine. I wish i had posted here from day 1 instead of just shadowing barbies thread. Now that i think about what somnilicious wrote im starting to question all my plans. If i can go down 1 ml a day and stay on 5x15mg of morphine 3 times a day no matter how shitty i feel, you think that will balance out my premature jump to morhpine?
Like, morhpine has to be alot easier to taper than methadone right? I was forced to come off of 6000mg/day of morhpine. it was like 30 60mg(pumpkings) in the morning and same in the aft and evening. it was hell but it was sort of kind of almost somewhat bearable. definitely do-able compared to what i read about people kicking methadone,
point is, if i have to trade in 1 addiction for another i want the morhpine addiction. If i keep my head straight and try hard I should kick this. especially since ill be overseas and my ability to procure pharmaceuticals will be severely limited. If i do have to kick morhpine and it's been over a month since no methadone i should technically be free and clear from it right? no more in my system? so if i really really had to, i can switch back to methadone, 30mg day 1 15mg day 2 7.5mg day 3 etc etc until a week later im at nothing?
am i missing something? am i planning this right?
i know this is definitely not the ideal situation and there is a high propensity for disaster but ive been in this situation many a times (actually never with methadone) and just hoping i can bear through it

thanks for the input,
thanks for the honesty,
Im a big boy so if im being a fucken idiot, be honest and let me know. please no kiddie- gloves
thanks to all who responded

 

[ogtommy]

btw
cj is onto what i was thinking...i DONT want to be addicted to anything BUT as drugs go, ill take morhpine over methadone. Maybe i can cut up a 100mcg patch into a 50mcg then a 25mcg then a 15mcg and then a 7.5mcg etc etc. same way i taper methadone but with a super fast acting patch. meaning 1 patch might last me 2 weeks and every 3 days have the dose cut in half?
dose that sound smart? stupid?
i know im ranting and raving but ive hit the brain racing stage. my brain does not stop now. from b4 i open my eyes my brain is racing including after 10 beers(i over did it a bit because 5oclock was a real bummer).
anyways
thanks again guys.
all suggestions/ideas are welcome

 

[cj]

Your being an idiot. Your falling into the same junky trap I've seen hundreds of times online. Rash thinking and looking for an easy out. Theres no free lunch in the poppy game. Youre plan might work if you properly tapered for 6 months but as it stands you will run up a huge morphine habit which will be much harder to taper then methadone. There is a reason why long acting drugs are used for tapers.

 

[ogtommy]

ok... ill bite..im an idiot exibiting junkie mentality. explain. and please dont say i should taper for 6 months CAUSE I DONT HAVE 6 MONTHS!! i got 7 maybe 8 weeks top!!!! so, short of giving up which im sure is very common and normal for most in the POPPY GAME im not one of them. I dont quit, give up or call it a day when shit gets hard. I am a j unit gladiator <----u can google that if you not from where im from and have been through withdrawals with NO comfort meds many a times. all i want is a seamless transition from methadone to morhpine or some other shorter acting opiate. if you dont have the answers, or you dont get/understand/feel what and where im comming from, i guess its time to move on and skip my post.

 

[ogtommy]

ok... ill bite..im an idiot exibiting junkie mentality. explain. and please dont say i should taper for 6 months CAUSE I DONT HAVE 6 MONTHS!! i got 7 maybe 8 weeks top!!!!

 

[ogtommy]

hey cj, let me put it to you this way. if i told you, that if you can be off methadone in 3 months (and you already squandered 1 month because you took a "SLOW taper"), you would inherit about a half million dollar beach house amongst other things" i guess you'd pass on the idea right? why try since obviously YOU would fail right? even if you had unlimited opiates,comfort meds and what not at your disposal. fuck it!!! if it's not a guaranteed thing no matter HOW BADLY you want something fuck it right? your a failure for sure right? there's no possible way of succeeding no matter how hard you try right?
is that what you are telling me?
adversity is nothing new to me but born losers are!! anybody that has resided to giving up when there's a chance will never be a great man. break it down anyway you want but anybody can act cool when they have everything going for them, but what separates the winners from the losers is how people deal with adversity. who can stand up when everybody else wants to sit down. guess that's why i was so awesome running track in my university days. I could never will myself to quit because "I FUCKEN KNEW I CAN GO A LITTLE BIT LONGER" and "IF YOU CAN GO UPTO THIS POINT, I CAN GO FURTHER". works for everything in life including drugs. thats why i never came on here asking if this will work and if its a good idea. My main concern was if you had access to all the meds i have access to, and you weren't a fall-down fuck in the ass that has a little bit of a backbone and was dead serious about doing this how would u do it. Telling me it's a bad idea is pointless. You know what's a bad idea????? taking drugs that get you hooked!!! but low and fucken behold here we all are right? Im doing this one way or another. cheer me on or hope that i fail.. i dont give a flying fuck... what i do care about is the people that can offer some helpfull advice to ease my transition. if no one can't... oh well.. nothing new... but like i said, nothing ventured nothing gained.been there done that over and over BUT this time it's on my terms. all i know is not trying because your scared is ,well, is....i don't know...pathetic. but i guess thats just me. an overabundance of testosterone, optimism and brainst. take that with a grain of salt when you assume things about me. been around a little bit longer than most and have seen a shit load more