Ketamine bladder/cystitis symptoms from light to moderate use

[stringybell]

I had the first potential twinge of bladder issues I have ever had recently following a period of 5 days in which I used basically 5 grams of K, which is the most I've ever used in this period before. About a week before this I did about 800mg over the course of a single session. Before this, I hadn't done any K or any other dissociatives for over 6 months. However... my symptoms were mild enough that I am not totally decided if it was fully psychosomatic and I am just worrying myself for no reason because I know about the bladder dangers.

The first hint of weirdness was some (again, possibly psychosomatic) urinary retention on an insufflated 4-HO-MET trip during which I was also doing K. However, I have had psychosomatic urinary retention on psychedelics before (I say psychosomatic because I am not aware of any other mechanism by which tryptamines and lysergamides can induce urinary retention). Naturally I spent the rest of the trip worrying about it, I stopped doing K briefly after this but continued my small binge maybe a day later after getting drunk and doing some cocaine, because I like to use K to come down from cocaine... on that note, there were at least a couple of occasions during this 5 day period where I drank (mostly just a few beers, only on one day excessively), so that obviously would aggravate any K-induced bladder symptoms.

Anyway once I stopped and all the other drugs wore off, for a while I was definitely more aware of my bladder and the urge to urinate, when I had it... However, again, I cannot say with 100% certainty that this was a real, physical thing, or if I just scared myself during a trip and was experiencing the psychological aftereffects.

I haven't had any pain, and I don't believe I have actually been urinating any more often... so I am hoping that this was completely psychosomatic, or, if not, perhaps my experience during that 4-HO-MET trip was my mind taking the opportunity to warn me about the subtle first indicators of damage, and hopefully I then stopped in time that if I did cause any changes to my bladder, they will fully reverse with abstinence... Anyway, just thought I would add my anecdote to the thread.

I'd be interested to hear how this progresses. Please do update if you get the chance.

 

[Vastness]

^ Sure, so I would say that any symptoms, even psychological ones, were basically resolved within a week after they occurred, even, possibly, at the time I made that post which was 5 days after my last use, they were essentially gone.

I did dose a "Water Balance" tablet on a few occasions the week afterwards which is for mild urinary retention, it seemed to have some benefit although again I'm not totally decided if my symptoms were real. This was a herbal mix of Dandelion root, Uva-uris leaf extract and Buchu leaf extract (I have no idea what these are supposed to do usually, am just copying off the "Active ingredients" on the box).

I made the possibly ill-advised decision at +6 days to attempt a single K-hole dose because my memory of my binge is basically a confused haze after a point without much of the actual holey epicness that I like, so I weighed out 250mg and insufflated it over a couple of minutes. Usually this would be a pretty reliable hole dose but on this occasion I did not hole at all, just experienced very light dissociation for half an hour or so... so obviously my tolerance is such that it's time for a long break.

Interestingly the urinary symptoms this time did not recur, although I did have a strange feeling in my organs in the hours after dosing (I can't think of any better way to describe it)... possibly something kidney related, or just something digestive that I was misinterpreting.

 

[Xorkoth]

How much of a role does diet play in cystitis and similar conditions? I understand that things like beer and coffee (technically diet I guess) can have an effect because they're going right through your urinary tract.

I'm vegetarian and have a relatively balanced diet. It's early days still but I don't feel like diet has much of an effect. More likely lifestyle considerations are more important - not going on too many dehydrating benders and getting enough sleep.

I don't know really, I only know anything about it because my girl has it. For her diet is the main consideration, but that might not be true for you. She doesn't go on benders nor even does drugs more than once in a blue moon, but certainly I'd imagine that benders and not taking care of yourself would be big factors.

 

[stringybell]

I worry about that. Mostly that it might get worse as I become older.

By the way, were your CPPS symptoms present before ketamine, or only after?

I'm not sure if I asked - how long has it been since you last used the drug and have you noticed any improvement of symptoms?

 

[e1evene1even]

When I first used ketamine years ago (and only in small amounts) I got some weird intermittent pain that lasted for a VERY long time. I'm pretty sure it wall gall-bladder related though. I've had ultrasounds and full blood tests and nothing out of sorts was found.

After 8 years of MXE + ketamine and a few random others I think I have some bladder issues and some kidney issues that may or may not be related.

I find some times after using K I'll have some kidney pain that could last a few days. Strangely the most effective way to get rid of it is often a bit more K. Almost as if some k or a metabolite is 'stuck' in there and gets flushed out.

 

[stringybell]

When I first used ketamine years ago (and only in small amounts) I got some weird intermittent pain that lasted for a VERY long time. I'm pretty sure it wall gall-bladder related though. I've had ultrasounds and full blood tests and nothing out of sorts was found.

After 8 years of MXE + ketamine and a few random others I think I have some bladder issues and some kidney issues that may or may not be related.

I find some times after using K I'll have some kidney pain that could last a few days. Strangely the most effective way to get rid of it is often a bit more K. Almost as if some k or a metabolite is 'stuck' in there and gets flushed out.

Can you describe the pain you used you get? And how long did it last? If you're suffering from ketamine cystitis blood tests wouldn't show up anything.

I'm not an expert but I think that if you're suffering kidney pain and finding that K relieves it temporarily you should be very careful. You may be doing serious damage. I haven't used K in over 4 months and I'm still suffering cystitis-like symptoms and am seriously concerned now that I've done irreversible damage.

 

[ronsebes]

i've had these exact symptoms for almost a year, ever since trying K. i took a solid 3-4 month break and the symptoms died down to almost an unnoticeable level. 3 days ago i snorted a small 50mg bump of ketamine and experienced these same symptoms arise, even worse this time and after such a tiny bump! ill never be touching k again

 

[Moxious]

I've used a gram of k to myself in total spread over 7 months, after each use ive encountered uncomfortable bladder symptoms that last a week or two, these symptons linger but aren't as noticeable but haven't seem to have fully disappeared

i've had these exact symptoms for almost a year, ever since trying K. i took a solid 3-4 month break and the symptoms died down to almost an unnoticeable level. 3 days ago i snorted a small 50mg bump of ketamine and experienced these same symptoms arise, even worse this time and after such a tiny bump! ill never be touching k again

That's pretty disconcerting, 1 gram spread out over 7 months should definitely not be causing those symtpoms and I'd be concerned something else is going on

 

[stringybell]

i've had these exact symptoms for almost a year, ever since trying K. i took a solid 3-4 month break and the symptoms died down to almost an unnoticeable level. 3 days ago i snorted a small 50mg bump of ketamine and experienced these same symptoms arise, even worse this time and after such a tiny bump! ill never be touching k again

I think you should definitely stop using K as there seems to be a correlation.

I'd also say it's important to go to a doctor and rule out any more serious conditions.

It is possible you are, like me, one of the unlucky people who experiences symptoms with relatively small doses.

 

[stringybell]

i've had these exact symptoms for almost a year, ever since trying K. i took a solid 3-4 month break and the symptoms died down to almost an unnoticeable level. 3 days ago i snorted a small 50mg bump of ketamine and experienced these same symptoms arise, even worse this time and after such a tiny bump! ill never be touching k again

I think you should definitely stop using K as there seems to be a correlation.

I'd also say it's important to go to a doctor and rule out any more serious conditions.

It is possible you are, like me, one of the unlucky people who experiences symptoms with relatively small doses.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

My girl has interstitial cystitis, not from ketamine use, but some people are more prone to bladder damage than others. She's had to learn how to eat so that it doesn't bother her too much. Whenever she eats outside of her realm of what works, it flares up much worse.

It never affected her at all or was even a thing until she was 29.

How does kratom interact with her IC

 

[Xorkoth]

She's never tried it. She hasn't done many drugs. The one time she took LSD with me, the end of the trip and hours after were spent having to pee every 10 minutes and bladder pain. Mushrooms don't seem to do this, nor weed. But alcohol does, and caffeine fucks her up too. Those are the only drugs she's ever done. She wants to try more psychedelics but is extremely wary of them because of her stomach and IC issues.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

^ reddit posters seem to love kratom for IC pain. but people there think kratom is the return of christ so i'm doubtful what to believe.

I know that it gives me bladder pain and frequent pissing. I need to stop trying to verify if kratom is hurting me through the internet and just listen to my body and toss the shit.

 

[Vastness]

Thought I would post my recent experience with bladder issues and dissociatives here, it doesn't involve Ketamine but Deschloroketamine / 2'-OxO-PCM / O-PCM / DXE / DCK (just putting those terms all there for the potential benefit of any future searchers). In my limited experience, this compound is potentially even more prone to inducing bladder issues than Ketamine, which I would suspect has something to do with the very long duration of after-effects and potentially some metabolite(s) with a very long half life.

Anyway I had never done DCK before about 11 days ago, when I did 160mg - a day later I did another 80mg, and 3 days after that another 160mg. So in the space of about 5 days I did 400mg. I did not immediately notice any bladder strangeness, but started to notice something probably 2-3 days AFTER my last dose. My symptoms almost exactly mirrored what you are describing, stringybell, increased bladder awareness, just slight pain that came in waves, increased when I was sitting or lying in certain positions - during this time I didn't do any drugs and tried to just drink a lot of water and not stress myself out too much. The symptoms peaked in intensity during the 4th night I think when it was actually stopping me from sleeping, urination would bring immediate relief but then just 10-20 minutes later this light, intermittent pain would return. On day 5, remembering the advice of someone else in this thread I purchased some Olive Lead Extract and immediately took 2 capsules (equivalent to 132mg of Oleuropein, apparrently) and felt that this did make an immediate difference but it could have been placebo. I occasionally noticed the very slight pain throughout that day, but that night was much better. Today (day 6) the increased bladder awareness is almost entirely gone, I took another 2 OLE capsules and will continue to take 1 per day until I am sure that either my symptoms have gone entirely or are not going to improve significantly more (one thing to note, the formulation I got contains copper and zinc as well which means it would be inadvisable for me to take too much - otherwise I would probably be taking them more frequently).

Unfortunately I think that means I am now done with the entire arylcyclohexylamine class - at least, until a far more solid scientific understanding of the mechanism of bladder damage of this class emerges - especially as it relates to the newer ones. I mentioned earlier in this thread that I had a bladder "scare" at the start of the year, I think I can safely say now that wasn't psychosomatic, but real threshold symptoms and my first warning... I definitely don't need another. I'll update if there are any further developments.



I have a theory, although I'm not going to personally test it, that concurrent administration of diuretics with dissociatives would likely be a fairly solid harm reduction policy - based on the quite well supported idea that the bladder damage is caused by metabolites in the urine, this seems to make sense by simply making sure that urine is stored in the bladder for as short a time as possible. At least, this might work for ketamine as the half lives of ketamine and norketamine are not that long, I suspect that for O-PCE/O-PCM, and any other arylcyclohexylamines with very long after effects, continuous administration of diuretics during the days following and the drawn out comedown might be a good idea - while making sure to maintain adequate hydration and not fuck up electrolyte balances and the like, of course. So perhaps isotonic sports drinks and a few caffeine pills, I wouldn't advise alcohol but perhaps the diuretic effects in the short term could even offset the danger of longer term bladder damage. Although of course, again, in the absence of actual studies this is all completely theoretical and I might be way off.

 

[Rastahund]

This thread is really interesting and I would like to share my experience as well.

I have struggled with heavy ketamine use for three years now. Before that, I was still using more than I should have but not every day. I've been a ketamine user for nine years.

I never really started having bladder problems until very recently. Sometimes there would be irritation but I'm prone to cystitis before ketamine was a thing in my life. As of the last several months, I have run into a bladder issue. It's really hard to pee. I have to push really hard, but it seems to only happen while I'm on ketamine. If I cease use for a little bit, peeing feels normal again. A couple months ago, I suddenly started having some very very bad pains that I had never felt before. Urgency to go was so intense that I couldn't even run errands without getting this incredibly intense discomfort. This only lasted a couple of days, but I went to the doctor pretty much right when it started. They ran tests on my urine and they said they found very strange results- lots of protein in the urine and some kind of precursor metabolite to kidney stones (excuse my lack of knowledge on that, I'm not exactly sure what it meant). I ordered a blood test for kidney function because at this point, I thought my kidneys were shot. Protein in the urine is a very bad sign. Tests come back, my kidneys are doing great. They are actually doing better than the previous blood test that I had done two years prior. That whole thing passed and I didn't really have any problems for a while, though it was still always hard to pee while using ketamine. Now I'm starting to experience some bladder discomfort again. I have sort of entered into a binge at this time, which has caused me to not take care of myself as well as I should... which is where this bladder problem is probably stemming from.

So... to get past all the long back story, here are some things that I have learned to really help with my bladder. Make sure you do your own research before trying any of these things, but this has worked for me.

https://www.amazon.com/Crystal-Star-Bladder-Control-Supplements/dp/B00028LPOA These have helped immensely, but I'm a bit iffy on the kava-kava in it. That's the only downside.

Chanca Piedra is a very good herb for the kidneys and bladder, and I've experienced good results with it.

Drinking lots of water is VERY important, and you will probably notice your symptoms diminish when you do that.

I've also found that juicing really helps (this helps with both bladder problem and the horrible "k-cramps". I bought a juicer and will usually juice together beets, lemon, ginger, spinach, kale, carrots and apples. This seems to ease bladder pain a lot... but is also getting more into the territory of k-cramps. =p

I have a lot of experience with this, and would love to offer anyone help who needs it. You can message me. I don't advocate intense ketamine use at all... you should never, ever put yourself down this path. It's so, so hard to get out of and I'm trying to get out of it myself. But if it does happen to you, I can offer lots of different things that I have tried and succeeded in for bladder/kidney pain and/or k-cramps.

Edit: Going back and reading more of this thread, I do agree that your diet has a lot to do with how ketamine effects your organs in my experience. A good plant-based, minimal meat and very vitamin enriched diet does ALL the difference.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

My symptoms have gotten worse over the past month even though i have thrown away my DCK a month ago when this pain started. See the urologist on friday. Its honestly scaring the living fuck out of me and causing me to abuse the hell out of pot and opioids when i can find them just out of the pure stress.

The shocking thing was how quickly this escalated from nothing to something that is greatly causing stress and pain. I used dissociatives pretty heavily for a year during the MXE days and sporadically thereafter. I never had any pain and suddenly it ramped up to bad pain.

I feel like i need to piss 24/7. I'm worried i've fucked myself up for life. I will never touch dissociatives again for the rest of my life after this ordeal. Will never touch kratom again (it seems to greatly worsen the symptoms). I've ruled out an infection detectable by otc AZO strips

I'm actually considering rehab and quitting all drugs as each class of drugs has taken a great toll on my health, mind, career, and relationship. Its pure insanity. the more problems drugs cause the more you require drugs to deal with the problems they caused. its hell

 

[stringybell]

My symptoms have gotten worse over the past month even though i have thrown away my DCK a month ago when this pain started. See the urologist on friday. Its honestly scaring the living fuck out of me and causing me to abuse the hell out of pot and opioids when i can find them just out of the pure stress.

The shocking thing was how quickly this escalated from nothing to something that is greatly causing stress and pain. I used dissociatives pretty heavily for a year during the MXE days and sporadically thereafter. I never had any pain and suddenly it ramped up to bad pain.

I feel like i need to piss 24/7. I'm worried i've fucked myself up for life. I will never touch dissociatives again for the rest of my life after this ordeal. Will never touch kratom again (it seems to greatly worsen the symptoms). I've ruled out an infection detectable by otc AZO strips

I'm actually considering rehab and quitting all drugs as each class of drugs has taken a great toll on my health, mind, career, and relationship. Its pure insanity. the more problems drugs cause the more you require drugs to deal with the problems they caused. its hell

I'm sorry to hear things seem to have worsened. Bear in mind it might be a bad flare up and that the symptoms you're currently experiencing won't necessarily always be as severe.

If you have a chance please do update us on your situation.

 

[stringybell]

Thanks for sharing your account, Vastness.

I'd be curious to know how you're getting along now. Have the symptoms entirely disappeared?

 

[LucidSDreamr]

Thought I would post my recent experience with bladder issues and dissociatives here, it doesn't involve Ketamine but Deschloroketamine / 2'-OxO-PCM / O-PCM / DXE / DCK (just putting those terms all there for the potential benefit of any future searchers). In my limited experience, this compound is potentially even more prone to inducing bladder issues than Ketamine, which I would suspect has something to do with the very long duration of after-effects and potentially some metabolite(s) with a very long half life.

Anyway I had never done DCK before about 11 days ago, when I did 160mg - a day later I did another 80mg, and 3 days after that another 160mg. So in the space of about 5 days I did 400mg. I did not immediately notice any bladder strangeness, but started to notice something probably 2-3 days AFTER my last dose. My symptoms almost exactly mirrored what you are describing, stringybell, increased bladder awareness, just slight pain that came in waves, increased when I was sitting or lying in certain positions - during this time I didn't do any drugs and tried to just drink a lot of water and not stress myself out too much. The symptoms peaked in intensity during the 4th night I think when it was actually stopping me from sleeping, urination would bring immediate relief but then just 10-20 minutes later this light, intermittent pain would return. On day 5, remembering the advice of someone else in this thread I purchased some Olive Lead Extract and immediately took 2 capsules (equivalent to 132mg of Oleuropein, apparrently) and felt that this did make an immediate difference but it could have been placebo. I occasionally noticed the very slight pain throughout that day, but that night was much better. Today (day 6) the increased bladder awareness is almost entirely gone, I took another 2 OLE capsules and will continue to take 1 per day until I am sure that either my symptoms have gone entirely or are not going to improve significantly more (one thing to note, the formulation I got contains copper and zinc as well which means it would be inadvisable for me to take too much - otherwise I would probably be taking them more frequently).

Unfortunately I think that means I am now done with the entire arylcyclohexylamine class - at least, until a far more solid scientific understanding of the mechanism of bladder damage of this class emerges - especially as it relates to the newer ones. I mentioned earlier in this thread that I had a bladder "scare" at the start of the year, I think I can safely say now that wasn't psychosomatic, but real threshold symptoms and my first warning... I definitely don't need another. I'll update if there are any further developments.



I have a theory, although I'm not going to personally test it, that concurrent administration of diuretics with dissociatives would likely be a fairly solid harm reduction policy - based on the quite well supported idea that the bladder damage is caused by metabolites in the urine, this seems to make sense by simply making sure that urine is stored in the bladder for as short a time as possible. At least, this might work for ketamine as the half lives of ketamine and norketamine are not that long, I suspect that for O-PCE/O-PCM, and any other arylcyclohexylamines with very long after effects, continuous administration of diuretics during the days following and the drawn out comedown might be a good idea - while making sure to maintain adequate hydration and not fuck up electrolyte balances and the like, of course. So perhaps isotonic sports drinks and a few caffeine pills, I wouldn't advise alcohol but perhaps the diuretic effects in the short term could even offset the danger of longer term bladder damage. Although of course, again, in the absence of actual studies this is all completely theoretical and I might be way off.

dissociatives are themselves diuretics.

also if you read the other concurrent thread Cotcha has explained that the damage is based on physiological cascades initiated by the dissos and not a direct effect.


re the frequent uriniation and urgency, try flomax. My urologist said it helps greatly with this symptom. Also a blue drug called urogesic which is a longer term version of phenothyazine (which you are only supposed to take for a few days) helps with the pain. they are analgesics for the UT system and they provide quite a bit of relief. Opiates help also but opiates help everything.



MODS: maybe consider merging these two threads?

 

[stringybell]

It's now been exactly since months since I last used K and I thought I'd give a little update for anyone who's still interested.

The story so far goes like this:

April - August 2017 - I used ketamine recreationally. Never more than a g in a weekend. Roughly every fortnight at first, culminating in a series of 2-3 weekends and music festivals where I used multiple days in a row. Still rarely more than a 1g in a weekend.

August 2017 - I started to notice strange abdominal symptoms that I immediately suspected to be ketamine related. Twinges and increased awareness in various parts of my abdomen and groin including what felt like my bladder

- These symptoms worsened through September and at their peak were bad enough to effect my sleeping for a few nights.
- They eventually died down and by the end of November I thought they had prettty much gone.

December 2017 - After assuming the symptoms gone and that I would be making a full recovery, the symptoms returned. This corresponded with a time in my life when I was partying a lot, using other drugs and alcoohol.

January 2018 - These symptoms worsened until I had another period where it affected my sleep for a few nights. This made me doubly anxious (a feedback cycle I think) and my mental health suffered for a while.

February - April - The symptoms seem to have very slowly got better. It's so gradual as to make it quite hard to recognise improvements but there definitely have been improvements.

April 2018 - After trying two GPs and a urologist with no answers I tried another urologist. He examined my bladder with an ultrasound and very quickly said "everything's fine". He then conducted a prostate exam which I found to be extremely painful. He seemed to think immediately (based on my reaction) that I had prostatitis. I gave him a semen sample which came back negative two days later. He advised that I take 800mg of ibuprofren every day for two weeks to ease my inflamed prostate. Tomorrow is the end of the two week period and though it does seem to be still improving, it's hard to tell why as it had been on the improve for the last few months anyway.

N.B. I've had blood tests with two different GPs and been fully tested for any STDs.

----

I'm still nowhere near having any answers but I still believe that the ketamine triggered whatever is happening. It's possible that it's affecting my prostate as much as my bladder but there's some talk in medical circles of prostatitis and interstitial cystitis being the same thing, so...