Gnostic Christianity MEGATHREAD

[AddictRecon]

I would argue that Jesus is not the way.

For now.

 

[achat]

Religion is personal and if God is not willing to get personal then he is not worthy of us.

That is why I chose Gnostic Christianity because it does speak to the personal of man's Godhood.

 

[AddictRecon]

Religion is personal and if God is not willing to get personal then he is not worthy of us.

That is why I chose Gnostic Christianity because it does speak to the personal of man's Godhood.

God created us, If He distances Himself from us, it is because we are not worthy of Him. The arrogance of man, limited in knowledge, is ever trying to equate himself to an omniscient God..

The irony..

 

[swilow]

If we, gods creation, are unworthy of him, why is that our fault? I make music but if I make a shit tune, I don't blame the shit tune.

 

[AddictRecon]

If we, gods creation, are unworthy of him, why is that our fault? I make music but if I make a shit tune, I don't blame the shit tune.

Thats not an analogous argument.. A crappy tune doesnt have sentience, you do.

if you are going to make a philosophical case, at least adhere to entry level philosophical principles, namely by avoiding fallacious arguments like the one you attempted above.

Thanks in advance

 

[swilow]

Nice response, exactly why I don't bother trying to have civil discussions with religious people.

 

[AddictRecon]

Nice response, exactly why I don't bother trying to have civil discussions with religious people.

I personally know and have atheist friends who are just as studied in philosophical principles who would have called you out on that as well, dont make it about something its not.. Make an analogous argument that actually holds weight and we can talk.

Thanks

 

[swilow]

Personally, I've little interest in rephrasing my argument just so you'll deign to answer me. You could just answer my original question and ignore my analogy. Why does god blame His creations for their flaws?

 

[AddictRecon]

Personally, I've little interest in rephrasing my argument just so you'll deign to answer me. You could just answer my original question and ignore my analogy. Why does god blame His creations for their flaws?

Ok, now thats more like it, direct and to the point. Now the answer to that is simple. (keep in mind, this is Christian doctrine, you asked, so Im giving you our perspective)

God created us with an innate, intrinsic knowledge of right and wrong. We are born without sin, clean slate.. But inevitably, we as humans sin against God, we choose immoral behavior that is in direct contradiction to our own given nature.

Have you ever lied to someone? God hasnt. Have you ever stolen something? God hasnt..


Without God, there is no foundation for right and wrong, which is why people invest so much time in convincing themselves God doesnt exist, so they can do as they please.. But sin will always lead to negative affects on ones own life.

Simply disagreeing with God isnt an argument against His existence.

Now heres the part you will actually like.

As a Christian, its impossible to prove or disprove god to a person. The Bible states clearly that God hides himself, God hates the proud, the wicked and those who reject Him, so He removes all sense of His presence from that person, allowing them to fall into a deception, this is something the person initiates, not God.

I commune with God, but daily I seek Him, and as scripture states, If you draw near to the Lord, He will draw near to you, which logically and conversely one must deduce that if you distance yourself from the Lord, He will distance Himself from you. You ultimately would deny there even is a God because you cant feel His presence. Sin, pride, things God hates are what forces His hand in distancing Himself from unbelievers or even Christians if they fall into sin.. yes, God distances Himself from Christians who sin as well, especially because they know better..

If God has hidden Himself from an unbeliever, and I was able to usurp Gods ability to remain hidden, and prove God exists, i would have more power than God, which is not possible, its also why Christians do not have the power to prove, or force belief of God on someone God has distanced Himself from.

All the proof you need of God is literally at your fingertips, you just have to take a step towards Him... I was agnostic most of my life, but drugs and sin took their tole and I cried out to the Lord, He answered, and now the joy I have in the Lord is something no drug can compare to, you simply cannot imagine the joy of salvation, there is nothing like it, its why I preach Christ crucified for the remission of sin, because I was set free, given the power to overcome sin in my life and know true joy..

The profundity of what Ive just said to you is truly incomprehensible, I simply cannot put it into words adequately enough.. Once it happens, you will say the same things I am, and you will likely be hated for it.. As I am.

 

[swilow]

God created us with an innate, intrinsic knowledge of right and wrong.

I'll have to stop you there. What makes you think this? Nearly everything we see in adult humans is learned, from mechanical activities such as talking and walking to our sense of self and self-awareness. They take time to develop. Why would our morality be any different? I think there is evidence that you cannot impose the same morality onthe actions of a baby than to a full adult.

Consider the idea of object impermanence. It is hard for me to imagine that a baby has the capacity to steal when a baby does not understand that an object it can no longer see still exists. It does not really have the ability to recognise ownership of objects.

Without God, there is no foundation for right and wrong, which is why people invest so much time in convincing themselves God doesnt exist, so they can do as they please.

To the contrary, from my perspective the fact that we have a system of morality in the face of the overwhelming probability that the Christian god does not exist actually demonstrates that humans are absolutely capable of conceiving of right and wrong without needing it imposed from birth. We have morals but there is no god, hence god is not required to develop morality.

What you are saying is that without god, we would be murderous savages. And yet, in the current age with the rise of secular values and the decreasing reliance upon doctrine, we are seeing dramatic improvements, globally, in the quality and length of life of an average human. We are seeing less crime and less poverty than at any other time in human history, including the very brief period of time in which Christian doctrine has held sway. Perhaps because we are taking responsibility for ourselves in our one and only life, we have stopped imagining we have an eternity to repent and so we are actually more moral than ever before.

For me, I do not do things I find immoral because that is how I expect others to act, not because god inspires me. I do not believe in consequneces for my behaviour in any true sense, I do not think there is any justice or retribution for immorality in an afterlife, but I choose not to 'sin' in the hope that other humans are also choosing the same thing.

 

[AddictRecon]

I'll have to stop you there. What makes you think this?

Let me stop you there as well.. Perhaps you forgot, but Im also a human, so I have a little insight into what it means to be just that, human. You know as well as I do that stealing, murdering, ect. are wrong. You dont have to learn this behavior is wrong, and you arent about to convince me that someone had to teach you it was wrong, these moral issues are fundamental to the integrity of our civilization. A murderer knows murder is wrong, they simply do not care. A thief knows they are wrong, they simply do not care what the consequences are, the reward for the wrong is greater in their eyes. Steal from a child and they know its wrong, hurt a child and they know its wrong. We know these intrinsic moral truths because we dont want them to happen to us. You dont have to learn that you dont want to be murdered, or that you dont want to be stolen from, nobody wants this, and likewise, we know that others do not either.

So please dont contradict yourself and pretend for a second that you dont believe we have an innate sense of morality, thats not only dishonest, but disingenuous to even suggest such foolishness.. Atheists dont even make that argument and they flat out reject God, but they still believe in an innate sense of moral obligation, they just cant justify it.

It is hard for me to imagine that a baby has the capacity to steal when a baby does not understand that an object it can no longer see still exists. It does not really have the ability to recognise ownership of objects.

You obviously dont have children, because my son has always tried to take things without my approval, he stares at me when Im not looking hoping I wont notice, even though Im aware, you better believe he knows what hes doing is wrong, otherwise he wouldnt sneak around me, he would just take things off my desk without so much as a second guess. Hes two now and hes been doing this ever since he could walk. While I understand hes testing my limits, I also let him know there are consequences for his behavior.

in the face of the overwhelming probability that the Christian god does not exist

Philosophically speaking, there is no evidence that God doesnt exist, God is not falsifiable, meaning I cannot prove God to you (for the reasons outlined above) and God cannot be proven to not exist.

You cant give me any evidence God doesnt exist because that evidence would require a falsifiable God to exist, you fall on your own sword with such a statement.

To the contrary, from my perspective the fact that we have a system of morality

Which system? American? or the Muslims? Or perhaps the countries in Africa?

Which system of morality is correct? you cant begin to answer that.

For me, I do not do things I find immoral because that is how I expect others to act

Ah so you agree, that we as humans can relate to how we want to be treated, thus allowing us the knowledge of our own morality to justify our actions and how we treat others.

Thanks for agreeing with me, you just proved my point.

Tell me, since you now understand that morality comes from within, as youve just confirmed, how exactly is your morality not innate? Did someone have to teach you that you didnt want to be murdered? Stolen from? Cheated on? Nope, you knew that from moment you could think about it, because that very morality is part of who we are, the very morality I say we have intrinsically, and that you have confirmed.

Why is it wrong to speed? Because there is a statute that governs this behavior. Whats odd is that depending on your locale, these laws that are crafted by men, are subjective. Same with morality, if men determine what is moral, then you will always have conflict, because if you were a resident of Iran, you are morally obligated to cut the head off of a person who disagrees with your Islamic faith. But wait, you dont agree with that, I wonder why that is.

Morality is true because it has a foundation to support it, that foundation is not a matter of mixed opinion, otherwise morality is entirely subjective, and things like right or wrong are up to the person, not what is true.

But you believe you have a true morality, in fact, you live by that morality, and no doubt expect others to live by that as well, which means there is a foundation for that morality, one that is true for all people, not just yourself, otherwise you acknowledge that while murder may be immoral for you, I am just as justified in murdering as an obligatory measure of pure enjoyment and you cant tell me Im wrong.

The only way murder is wrong objectively is if their is an objective foundation for why, and that why is God. With no author, with no statutes, morality is whatever we want it to be. Legislation by men can change, and what is considered murder in the US is not considered murder in Iran, who is correct? You cant answer that without a foundation, you can only give your opinion on the matter.

I can ground all morality in an objectively true moral lawgiver, whether you think my position is rational, you cant point to one logical incoherrance in my position, this is not something you can do, you can only ground your morality in your opinion, but you do agree that you have a moral code that you live by, and if you try and tell me for one second that you had to 'learn' this morality, Im sorry but Im not going to be able to take you serious.

Thats like saying I dont rape women because God had to tell me it was wrong or I had to learn it was wrong to rape.... Thats nonsense, raping women is wrong because I know it is wrong, I cant imagine wanting to be raped myself, and if I dont want to be raped, how am I justified in raping someone? It doesnt take a harvard law degree to figure this out.. We know because we know how we want to be treated ourselves, this is the innate moral compass we all live by, some people circumvent this for self gratification, but they never want it done to themselves.

 

[swilow]

Didn't read any of it, you're much too abrasive to waste time on.

 

[AddictRecon]

Didn't read any of it, you're much too abrasive to waste time on.

I appreciate your time regardless.

Good evening

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

^Why place yourself below? Curious.

As above...

Mostly pride from doing my duty and taking honor from doing so. I am also being true to my animal nature and taking pleasure from knowing my proper place in the scheme of things natural.

Have you not noted that the stronger in the tribes and other mammalian animal groups have the strongest defending the weakest?

For me to let a woman or child, whom I see as weaker than I, although this is not always true but does not effect my policy, be placed below me would be me shirking my duty to the weak of society.

Do you think the strong should serve the needs of the weak? Or do you think the weak should serve the strong?

As a Gnostic Christian, I am trying to develop my Christ mind and Christ said he came to serve, not to be served.

If I am to try to be like Jesus then I too must serve.

Regards
DL

 

[swilow]

Do you think the strong should serve the needs of the weak? Or do you think the weak should serve the strong?

Regards
DL

Definitely the former. In fact, that is what shapes nearly all my ethical decisions.

What are your thoughts on vegetarianism?

 

[AddictRecon]

Christ said he came to serve, not to be served

In the correct context of the scripture you are referring to, this is correct, Christ in fact did come to serve, that was the entire point of His incarnation, to demonstrate how we are to serve God first, and others, thus fulfilling the law of God and the prophets, but Christ served God first, as it is written. (Mat 22:37-40) Which doesnt seem to be brought up much on this forum.. Romans 12:1-2 reiterates our first duty to serve God as well.

On the other hand, and contextually as scripture teaches, Jesus accepted worship, not only as the son of God, but as being equal to God (because He is God) (Mat 2:11; 14:33; 21:9), was directly referred to as God (Joh 20:28 ), and was prophesied as being the 'almighty God' of Isaiahs prophecy (Isa 9:6)

Jesus understood His ontology was difficult for people to understand, that being God incarnate was not something we could fully understand (Phi 2:5-6)

The incarnation (image of the invisible God Col 1:15) of Christ in the physical flesh, was the temporary aspect of His ontology (Heb 2:7; 2:9).

Christ is the same alpha and omega (first and last) of the OT and the New, which is worthy of not only worship, but reverence as God and our creator. (Isa 44:6 Isa 48:12 Rev 1:8; Rev 21:6; Rev 22:13)

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

After reading the bible, I dont see how God is limited by anything accept logic itself, which I feel exists because God exists.

You do not see how because you have swallowed a lot of B.S. thanks to your feelings, instead of your intellect.

Go back and think like the ancients did and as Jesus would advise. Seek God and stop believing B.S. said of him by those who have no way of knowing anything about God.

http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

I seems more like men are forming questions about God as if God is limited by the same things humans are, but there is a major difference between men on earth, and God.

You have nothing to back up this statement, which is why you did not name the major difference.

If you meant that man can reproduce true and God cannot then I agree with you. That shows a limit to God that man does not have and thus makes us more powerful than God.

]Exactly, God can only do what is logically possible for God to do, for example, God couldnt cease to exist, and exist at the same time[/QUOTE

Explain to us then how Jesus could die a real true death and then return?

You say God is logical. Put logic on that bare bone.

]e, if that were possible, nothing could be true. Its tantamount to philosophical absurdity. Another example in the bible says God cannot lie, meaning that God cannot propose something that is outright not true,

a

Selective reading I see. Your God is the Father of lies.
Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth ofthese thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.
1Kings 22:23

Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth ofthese thy prophets.
2 Chron 18:22

Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people.
Jer 4:10

And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord havedeceived that prophet.
Ezekiel 14:9

For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believea lie.
Thessalonians 2:11

O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived. - Jeremiah 20:7

To me, God’s worse lie was toAdam and Eve. He told them they could eat of the tree of life and then renegedand in a real sense murdered them by denying them a remedy.

That pesky God sure works in mysterious ways.

nd then pass it off as true, this is a violation of logic as it would require an attribute of God to be self contradictory which isnt an attribute that is logically possible for God to possess.

Yet scriptures and Christians call God good, when it is obvious that any God who uses genocide and kills when he could take the moralhigh ground and cure is definitely not a good God.

The only limitations God has is that God cannot sin,

Is genocide not a sin in your view?

His very existence necessitates this ontologically speaking, but then that isnt a 'limitation' but a measure of His perfection, maximal greatness. God cannot be "not perfect" where as we can, and in fact arent, moreover, we do things every day to prove we arent perfect.

If genocide is a trait of perfection, would you say that Hitler was more perfect tyhan most of us who recognize the genocide is what a satanic God would use and not a good God?

We couldnt even know we arent perfect without a standard of perfection, which is God.

Would a perfect God use genocide or have his son needlessly murdered?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKNup9gEBdg

It truly is amazing to think about and Im so thankful for my existence to even be aware of these fundamental truths, truths that are often overlooked, incidentally, by people with 'lack of knowledge'..

Yes you do lack a lot of knowledge but there is hope if you stop ready your book of myths in a literal way.

You say you seek perfection, as we all should, but look at what your own bible tell you to do to get there.
Hebrews 6 King James Version; 1 Therefore leaving the principles of thedoctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again thefoundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, andof laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternaljudgment.

You might note how you refer to what the bible says you should get away from if you seek the knowledge and wisdom
that would perfect you.

Christ is righteous I have no doubt, and I believe in the power of Christ consciousness to transform the world for the better.

I agree but you have to cherry pick as most of what Jesus preached, the Roman created Jesus that is, has a lot of immoral tenets.

I do not mind the esoteric mystical Jesus though.

If I have to identify with one of the world's major religions I choose Christianity to remain true to my heritage, baptism and teachings. The thing is though I love entertaining all possibilities because there is so much mystery.

Only to the unenlightened.

That and a dark underside of the church has existed for a long time, and man's corruption has made its way through 'The Word' in many ways. You are right; many Christians do not apply Christ's teaching which is a crying shame and one reason why I don't actively identify as Christian, other reasons are the church as a corrupt institution of Man. The whole thing has a murkiness, and I seek clarity. I attended catholic high school and was quickly taught a contextual interpretation of the bible, so I don't take scripture as 100% literal truth. Why didn't the editors of the bible or just lay the word out plain as day to not make any room for interpretation? Why has the modern day bible eliminated some of the most powerful and empowering messages of the original bible? (Gnositicm is my most closely aligned denomination because it seeks to restore these repressed teachings) My answer is because the church did not want the peasants to know the whole story. Keep it simple to keep the masses more easily controlled, keep telling them to give their riches to the church or thou shalt not enter the kingdom of heaven, stuff like that I can go on and on.

A fair description of the corrupted church. They have lied from the beginning.

But I appreciate your comments, and you are correct, if God is one who is omniscient omnipotent and omnipresent , it is hard to see how God could be any less than perfect.

If you ever find that God, then he is no better than a witch and I would recommend what the bible says to do with such. Do not suffer such a God to live.

I think I may have set the wrong precedent for this conversation, and while I do have reservations about the Church, to write it off because it has some bad adherents is tantamount to cheating yourself of the health benefits of going to the gym because there are people there who are out of shape, it just isnt a rational approach.

I disagree.
Both Christianity and Islam have basically developed intointolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grownthemselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoralways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works anddeeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as hispeople, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudlycontinuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation.
If you support Christianity in any way you are showing support for homophobia, misogyny and intolerance.

I havent abstained from going to Church, or working with other Christians, rather I try to keep true to teachings of Christ, and while many Christians may be misrepresenting Christ, I take that as an opportunity to share with them what Christ has done in my life in hopes they turn from bankrupt doctrinal views, or bickering over who has the best translation of the bible, it simply isnt the crux of the problem, yet they make it out that way.

Yes and that is what prevents them from looking at scriptures from a moral POV so that they can forgive their God for the same infraction that they would condemn men for. Like genocide and having a son needlessly murdered.

Im not really on board with Gnosticism as a sect or belief system, as I find it antithetical to Christs teachings.

I do not and see myself quoting Jesus more than many Christians.

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads...-Gnostic-Christian-way-Not-Christianity’s-way

Spiritual enlightenment, or having the 'mind of Christ', as it is written, is only attainable from a place of humility, perhaps one of mans greatest struggles and that only happens with the help of God, we simply cannot do it on our own.

Since God does not interfere with our free will, so Christians tell me, then he is not allowed to help.

As to your notions of humility. Garbage.

Gnostic Christian humility is not why early Christians tried to decimate us all and burn all of our scriptures. It was Christian egotistically trying to claim their God as the true God, or lack of humility, that had them kill us for our better ideology which Christianity could not refute then or now.

The last thing a Gnostic Christian wants is to have humility, as that would show we are no better than the Christians who think that a good trait, while we think it just shows someone who lacks confidence in what he is talking about.

We think very highly of ourselves which clouds our ability to see Gods glory,

Yes because there is no glory in being a genocidal son murdering God.

Tell us about how genocide deserves glory.

and this leads to pride, something more in common with satan,

Did Satan order us to not put anyone above her?

God did. W

Who is shown as the most prideful in scriptures if not God?

who attempted to exalt himself above God ,

She was in heaven and you were not, but do you see an immoral tyrant like God is said to be to be worthy of you?
Would you like to live in a tyranny here on earth under a God who is a genocidal tyrant?
Remember that even the 1/3 of all angels sided with Satan.

Seek the Lord while He may be found, this is what is written. It is also written that if you draw near to the Lord, He will draw near to you, but if that is true, then conversely, through sin against God, you are forcing God to distance himself from you, these are fundamental truths you can make an equitable investment in.

Wow. I can force an Omni-present God to restrict where he will go.

Thanks for pointing out how man can manipulate your God.

My approach to counteracting bad knowledge isnt to finger point, or tell someone they are wrong, but rather explain why God is right, the rest comes on its own.

So you do not follow the bibles wise teaching shown here? Is that because you do not love your fellow man enough to correct him?

Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; evenas a father the son in whom he delighteth.

I look forward to you showing how God is right to kill so many so often in scriptures, even innocent children and babies.

True knowledge, or 'gnosticism' begins with humility and a reverence for God,

Eh. No.

Believe it or not, apotheosis is generated by a love generated hate for corrupt religions and governments.

He will sort out the rest from my experience.

O

If you see a supernatural God at work, then you are delusional.

our wisdom is foolishness with God,

This is an outright lie as God directs us to use what wisdom we have to test all things.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what isgood.

which is why we should seek His knowledge, and His wisdom, and be content with what Hes willing to impart, ever so graciously I might add.

Hope that makes sense.

It might if it were not a genocidal prick of a God we were talking about.

I get the feeling that as you see other's misunderstand God in the way that you understand "him" you misunderstand the teaching of gnosticism and individual god-realization as well.

Our friend understand a God who is not a part of humanity and thinks humanity was created by God to serve him.

He forgets two thinks that scriptures tell us. That God does not change and that Jesus said he came to serve man.

Christians are attempting to change God from a servant to a master.

I can tell you are passionate and devoted, you make a lot of points that would make for a great real-time exchange (seriously, send me a PM and we will talk if you would like). I also sense a darkness in Gnosticism. i read from a distance but do not practice.

Darkness is good to show where the light is required.

When you learn to practice it, then you will understand the greatness of Gnostic Christianity as compared to Christianity.

Gnostic Christianity recognizes good and evil and that good should be loved and that evil should be hated. Christianity is so eager to show a more loving God that they invented unconditional love, and then quickly give all the conditions required to get that love.

Gnostic Christianity is more honest in that we place goodness as a condition for love and place evil as a good reason to hate. I see that as better than lying about unconditional love.

Their respect for the ways of Lucifer for instance as you mentioned is troublesome.

As it should if true. You might remember that Gnostic Christianity holds no supernatural beliefs.



Satan and hell are a Christian invention. Bishop Spong is never wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc

Humility is very important for spiritual growth, that I agree, but I respectfully disagree that you think humans are not capable of touching upon Christ consciousness.

Ditto.

Your comments on meditation are curious...and made me think, and sure I guess it is possible that emptying ones thoughts in meditation can open a channel to unwanted spirits, bit it can also open channels for healing spirits- its all about tuning in my verbiage. I had a mantra-ish message that came to me spontaneously,
'empty your heart
In this stillness you will find clarity'
I don't believe it came from a spirit of ill intention
It helped me clear up deep emotional tangles, see things a little more objectively, and unify my channels (again in my verbiage).
I do believe there are spirits that work through humans when those doors are open, and it may not be as simple as a black and white, dark and light sides...I believe that is a gross oversimplification.
More reponse later...

+ 1

You may actually be right about that, my experience with gnostics is limited, I must admit.. If you guys have any recommended resources that you could point me towards to give me a better understanding of what you believe, id be grateful

My favorite scholar on this is Elaine Pagels.

Thanks to the fact that Gnostic Christians are esoteric ecumenists, the esoteric teachings from this man has also given me a lot of insight into how to understand the bible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLIHeAYm7yE

Only Christ Himself has the full measure of the Spirit,

So you deny what Jesus and the bible say about Jesus' brethren then, do you?
Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if thereforethine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man loveme, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come untohim, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinateto be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn amongmany brethren.

All the new age self centered nonsense that is so pervasive in the world, is chief among those deceptions, yet its taking off like wildfire in a world of self worship. This is very sad...

Not as sad as giving power to some imaginary God concept and idol worshipping it the way you do.

https://www.amazon.com/Not-His-Image-Gnostic-Ecology/dp/193149892X

I don't have the space to reply as I quite honestly disagree with almost everything you've written there. Our flesh is not corrupt, attachment to it is. Christ was not perfect, and we will never be either, he was human. He was the son of God only in that he aligned his consciousness with that of the Creator, and thus lost himself. But not through denial of his divinity. Jesus was not special, he was only successful. Any of us may be as well. The idea that we are imperfect because we are imperfect is the greatest lie propagated by the false god of mainstream Christianity. The ideal of perfection creates a perpetual and neverending cycle of failing/falling because humans cannot achieve it.

I agree.

Christianity invented the fall by reversing the moral of the story of Eden. Jews saw Eden as where man was elevated, not where man fell. This did not help Christianity discredit the Jews, the many serpent cults of those days, as well as women, so Christianity reversed our elevation to our fall.

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/20/comparative-theodicy/

the Pentateuch and Haftorahs, observes, ‘Instead of the Fall of man (in the sense of humanity as a whole), Judaism preaches the Rise of man: and instead of Original Sin, it stresses Original Virtue, the beneficent hereditary influence of righteous ancestors upon their descendants’.

You limit yourself if you tell yourself you will never be like Christ. Did he not himself say that you too can know the kingdom of Heaven? Why then would you put him on a pedestal of perfection and unattainability? That goes directly against his word. The reason is that you've listened to this bullshit that perfection is attainable, and until you attain it, you are in some way wrong or less divine than Christ or the Creator. That is the biggest lie ever told.

Especially given that Jesus himself said that any true believer could do what he did and more.

I apologize for being unable to continue but I quite frankly thought this was a much different conversation than it is.

That is always the way when speaking with idol worshipers.

Further discussion on the subject is pointless, Id have to die before I give up the truth of who Christ is, my life is just not that important, its who God is that is important to me.

Your God is an immoral genocidal God.

Are God's morals not important to you?

If they are, why are you following a God with satanic morals?

Tell us, from your moral standpoint, who is more likely to promote the punishment of the innocent instead of the guilty as good justice?

Satan or your God?

Religion is personal and if God is not willing to get personal then he is not worthy of us.

That is why I chose Gnostic Christianity because it does speak to the personal of man's Godhood.

The bible does indeed and shows the way Jesus taught. You will know that that way is never taught by the church.

God created us, If He distances Himself from us, it is because we are not worthy of Him. The arrogance of man, limited in knowledge, is ever trying to equate himself to an omniscient God..

Only because you have accepted a description of God that is man made and wrong as no one can know anything of the supernatural.

The irony..

For sure.

Ok, now thats more like it, direct and to the point. Now the answer to that is simple. (keep in mind, this is Christian doctrine, you asked, so Im giving you our perspective)

God created us with an innate, intrinsic knowledge of right and wrong.

?? Which scriptures tell you this lie?

Then why deny A & E the tree of knowledge that you say they already had?

We are born without sin, clean slate.. But inevitably, we as humans sin against God, we choose immoral behavior that is in direct contradiction to our own given nature.

Wow. So man can somehow go against his own nature. That makes no sense at all. We have a sin nature that God gave us just as he gave Satan hers. If we are to believe biblical B.S.

Have you ever lied to someone? God hasnt. Have you ever stolen something? God hasnt..

See above where I show God as the father of lies.

Your last could be correct but God has coveted another man's woman and that is as good as stealing as God put the coveting commandment with other possessions that we are not to covet. That is quite close to stealing and a sin.

Without God, there is no foundation for right and wrong, which is why people invest so much time in convincing themselves God doesnt exist, so they can do as they please.. But sin will always lead to negative affects on ones own life.

What did the great sin of genocide lead to in terms of negatives for God?

Simply disagreeing with God isnt an argument against His existence.

True but it might show how unworthy he is and should not be called God.

As a Christian, its impossible to prove or disprove god to a person. The Bible states clearly that God hides himself, God hates the proud, the wicked and those who reject Him, so He removes all sense of His presence from that person, allowing them to fall into a deception, this is something the person initiates, not God.

Yet Jesus/God was chastised for hanging with the publicans and saying he came for the sick, not the well, which refutes what you put.

you simply cannot imagine the joy of salvation,

What were you condemned for and did the penalty fit the crime or sin that God imposed on you?

and know true joy..

How can you have true joy when you are following a genocidal God who, in the King David story even tortures a baby for 6 days before finally killing it? All because of anger with the father.

The profundity of what Ive just said to you is truly incomprehensible, I simply cannot put it into words adequately enough.. Once it happens, you will say the same things I am, and you will likely be hated for it.. As I am.

If you are hated it is because you follow a God who does not deserve respect.

Gnostic Christians have been telling you that forever and that is why Christians have always hated Gnostic Christians.

That and Christians could not refute our moral positions while we could make mince meat of yours.

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

Jesus couldnt be more thorough about why with this very topic, He quite literally explains the failure of Christianity, but He himself doesnt identify these people as real believing Christians, its a title they carry only, its what the new testament is about, Paul himself warns of falling from true saving grace, getting caught up in false christs, of the which there are many people are deluded with.

"These people honor me with their lips, but their heart is far from me" -Jesus Christ, our Lord

Well, it is rather meaningless words like grace that tend to throw people off.

I agree that Jesus and the bible warned us often about the corrupt religions and governments.

Those who follow Jesus yet remain in Christianity are adding to the corruption that Christianity is.

I would argue that Jesus is not the way.

Make your argument and I will try to deal with it.

Note though that I am selling Jesus' esoteric mystical way and not the Christian way that says I have to accept substitutionary atonement and the punishment of the innocent instead of the guilty as somehow being good justice.

If that way is what you would argue against, do not bother because I agree that mainstream Christianity is quite wrong.

Regards
DL

 

[AddictRecon]

With all due respect Gnostic Bishop, we could never initiate a conversation because i believe you adhere to texts which have no actual validity, you likely feel the same way about me and we could never agree on anything because of it.

Im a Christian who holds that Jesus Christ is God incarnate, our creator, and will judge all men who are not Him.

If you do not hold that view of Jesus, then discourse is pointless, I couldnt budge on that, forfeiting my salvation is not a possibility.

 

[AddictRecon]

Those who follow Jesus yet remain in Christianity are adding to the corruption that Christianity is

Yeah, thats definitely true of many Christians, but within Christendom there has always been dissent from this by those who have an intimate relationship with Christ. The problem is we arent very well liked by the churches, yet they claim to believe what we do, perhaps when its convenient for them..

Christ warned about the condition of the Church in the last days, its just par for the course and time is every closer to running out, especially for the Church if they dont turn back to Christ.