Nandrolone bad for heart, best alternative?

[RedRum OG]

Between my personal experience and what I've read, it seems the only AAS really worth the time and money (for long term size) are nandrolone, trenbolone, and testosterone. Orals aren't conducive to keeping gains and overall aesthetics, EQ and masteron give you a slightly dry look and not much more, even at high doses.

Yet from what I've read nandrolone is absolutely devastating to cardiac health, which is always my main concern when it comes to AAS. Liver and kidney toxicity are always talked about yet don't apply to oils mostly and are much less serious IMHO. Tren isnt quite as bad but still tough on cardiac health. Test seems to be the safest option but pales in comparison to NPP gains

Any suggestions? Or more info on heart health and Nandrolone and trenbolone?

 

[CFC]

Deca, Tren and Test certainly are three of the mainstay AAS and included in many cycles. However nandrolone isn't devastating to cardiovascular health, even if there are some concerning issues. I doubt it's as bad as highly androgenic AAS like tren, trest etc at sensible doses and for moderate length cycles. It would also appear to be the only AAS that directly improves lipid ratios. However we usually advise caution on the basis of its effect on recovery, which can take a very long time due to lingering metabolites.

When you say test gains pale in comparison, are you referring to yourself personally, or people in general? Because I wouldn't agree with that statement for most guys. Test is very effective for growth.

Also regarding orals, the current craze in the fitness/physique community is for never-ending cycles of anavar and winstrol, with occasional bumps of anadrol/dbol for fullness. It's very effective, albeit not healthy nor recommended for long periods due to liver issues.

How long are you planning to cycle for, and what are your expectations of the cycle (eg massive increase in weight, gentle gains, cut, bulk etc)?

 

[Serotonin101]

I'd definitely say test has outshined deca for me in terms of growth lately now that I have estrogen under control. Also longer runs of lower dose dbol have definitely given me some long term results. After this contest run I'll probably never run tren again. Primo is definitely a great choice for gains though they might not be as quick to see due to lack of water retention. 1-test/DHB is also on my radar for growth as well.

 

[RedRum OG]

Deca, Tren and Test certainly are three of the mainstay AAS and included in many cycles. However nandrolone isn't devastating to cardiovascular health, even if there are some concerning issues. I doubt it's as bad as highly androgenic AAS like tren, trest etc at sensible doses and for moderate length cycles. It would also appear to be the only AAS that directly improves lipid ratios. However we usually advise caution on the basis of its effect on recovery, which can take a very long time due to lingering metabolites.

When you say test gains pale in comparison, are you referring to yourself personally, or people in general? Because I wouldn't agree with that statement for most guys. Test is very effective for growth.

Also regarding orals, the current craze in the fitness/physique community is for never-ending cycles of anavar and winstrol, with occasional bumps of anadrol/dbol for fullness. It's very effective, albeit not healthy nor recommended for long periods due to liver issues.

How long are you planning to cycle for, and what are your expectations of the cycle (eg massive increase in weight, gentle gains, cut, bulk etc)?

I don't claim to be even half as knowledgeable or experienced as you but from what I've read as far as cardiac hypertrophy, collagen deposits, and apoptosis nandrolone seems to be the worst. Also in many cases of sudden death in young, otherwise healthy young men dying, nandrolone is almost always in their system, of course this just could be cuz of its insanely long detection time.


Not planning on doing tren anymore as I hate the high BP, insomnia, anxiety, and sweating, which as someone tapering methadone are already problems I have to uncomfortable levels. If I had to only blast/cruise test for the rest of my days I could accept that, test gives me good size and strength but every cycle it helps a little less... but I'd rather have at least one compound to add for size and strength which I absolutely love NPP, but am worried by what I read.


I don't like how most orals are either "I guess it dries you out a little" (winstrol, anavar) or "blows you up, but you'll keep next to no gains long term" (anadrol, dbol) and just prefer oils in general (liver toxicity speeds methadone consumption by liver, if I have even 1 beer I get incredibly withdrawals and don't want to play in that area)

I've only ever used these 3 compounds as I don't see reason to use others as an amature. I am not huge and use pretty small doses compared to the rest. Have run 2 cycles of tren and 1 npp. 2 of solo test. I am an opiate addict who has been tapering methadone for years (down to 25mg/day from 120+mg) so technically I blast and cruise because of TRT.. though my cycle history is basically :

HISTORY(muscle gains are conservative estimates as all cycles make me lose fat, and i have a horrible memory. I've gained about 80-100lb of straight muscle in about 2 years of lifting juiced, preceded by 6 months of half assed natty addict lifting)I started my journey an addict with a destroyed body got on TRT and started lifting. I was "skinny fat" probably a maximum of 90-100lb of lean mass at 5'10 but weighing 150lb (nasty chubby-skinny look)

Test cyp 250/week for 10 weeks. Kept about 15lbs gains.

Cruise 100mg/week for 20 weeks gained maybe 10lb

Test cyp 350/week for 10 weeks gained about 15lb

Test cyp 150mg/week + tren ace 350mg/week lost an insane amount of fat, estimate 10lb muscle gain (cut not bulk) 8 week

Test cyp cruise 100mg/week 16 weeks gained ~10lb

Test cyp 350mg NPP 350mg/week 12 weeks (bulk) insane gains almost 20lbs kept after

Test cruise same as above

Test cyp 200mg/week + tren ace 250mg/week (cut lost insane amounts of fat and probably gained at least 5 muscle) 8 week

STATS
I'm now 205lb I'd estimate 10% Bf. I like low doses and will continue to do so until I hit a plateau that is absolutely impenetrable by better diet/training. I have just under 1000lb big 3 lift total for *3 rep* max. I could do significantly better if I didn't spend 80% of gym time BB style training and paid more attention to my legs (285lbx3 bench PR, with a sad 375lbx3 deadlift PR... embarassing legs)both raw no straps no wraps nothing. Need to get a belt soon. I do BB style as high volume helps me feel relaxed and normal. Plus I appreciate classic aesthetics, am very into body modification of all types... and helps my confidence.


GOALS
TL;DR want to continue to slowly gain mass and strength while staying between 8 and 15% bf. I can't choose between BB style and PL style though I am more aesthetic than I am strong but I would love to compete in both someday if my genetics and discipline can make up for my unwiligness to dose like everyone else. I'm in this for the long run, lifting is my new addiction, and I don't want to ruin it with high dose tolerance and health problems only 2 years in.

 

[RedRum OG]

I'd definitely say test has outshined deca for me in terms of growth lately now that I have estrogen under control. Also longer runs of lower dose dbol have definitely given me some long term results. After this contest run I'll probably never run tren again. Primo is definitely a great choice for gains though they might not be as quick to see due to lack of water retention. 1-test/DHB is also on my radar for growth as well.

I used to be all for solo test, still am, but I'm not willng to raise doses and every cycle adds a little less. Primo seems too expensive for me but I'll look into it. I am confused on DHB, half the people out there say it's better than nandrolone+trenbolone, and others say it has about as much of a dramatic effect as EQ, which by all accounts is extremely underwhelming and even undetectable in terms of size and strength at doses as high as 500mg/week, which seems insane and useless.

So I guess I'll have to read into DHB more also thanks for the advice

You really keep gains long term from dbol? I've heard almost unanimously that unless you run heavy oils during/after you won't keep much, and even then maybe not.

 

[Serotonin101]

Run dbol at like 20-30mg/day for 6-8 weeks and tell me you don't keep anything. This may not be up your alley due to wanting avoid liver stress as of now but it is something to keep in your back pocket when off the methadone and willing to give it a go. I get digestion issues from orals very easily and yet dbol/drol don't give me hardly any issues when used low dose for long term. No need to push the ridiculous doses you see on other board like 100/day dbol or 300/drol (the drol dose is still within medical therapeutic range for anemia) as sides may prevent you from using it long teen. They also work nicely pre workout to help increase work capacity which means: more weight moved=more growth. Can always use tudca and nac if liver health is really a concern.

 

[CFC]

from what I've read as far as cardiac hypertrophy, collagen deposits, and apoptosis nandrolone seems to be the worst. Also in many cases of sudden death in young, otherwise healthy young men dying, nandrolone is almost always in their system, of course this just could be cuz of its insanely long detection time.

I can fully understand why you'd think that, but there's an issue we have of skewed data. Nandrolone, as one of the original 'gold standards' for medical treatment, has also been one of the most thoroughly researched of the AAS. Hence we have (relatively) plenty of data and studies for us to draw conclusions from. Unfortunately the absence of data (and especially comparative data) on other AAS doesn't mean they're safer.

Highly androgenic AAS, for example, are particularly indirectly damaging because of their upregulation of the sympathetic nervous system, and the way that appears to alter the behaviour of the sinoatrial node (pacemaker), and induces tachycardia, hypertension, blood 'stickiness' and clotting factors, lipid dysfunction, calcium deposition (plaque formation) and ultimately apoptosis and fibrosis. Thus if you love NPP, and since you never come off (basically) you have no recovery issues, you may as well make use of it on occasion.

I used to be all for solo test, still am, but I'm not willng to raise doses and every cycle adds a little less.

You're going to have this problem no matter what you do. As you get closer to your genetic limits, your gains will net less with each cycle. This is to be expected. It doesn't mean you need to raise your doses. If you raise your doses to gain more, you'll probably be unable to hold it all afterwards anyway. Thus it's better to allow the body to gain more slowly (which will allow it to adapt long-term) than attempt to short-circuit the process and lose it after.

One suggestion I might make: you could lower your TRT dose a bit. If you taper at the end of a cycle and slowly take your bloods down into the low-normal range of T, your rebound when you go back on cycle will be relatively stronger. Similarly, I would suggest tapering up when you go on cycle, rather than running (say) a constant 250mg/wk from the start. It's relative change that produces growth moreso than absolute doses.

PS thanks for typing up your cycle history so well! Makes it much easier for us

 

[Intense]

Where are you getting the idea that nandrolone is worse for the cardiovascular system in comparison to tren? That's simply not true.



Do your own test


do a cycle of 200mg of test and 300-350mg of NPP then get bloodwork. Then do the same with tren and tell me it's a "healthier" option..

 

[Serotonin101]

Where are you getting the idea that nandrolone is worse for the cardiovascular system in comparison to tren? That's simply not true.



Do your own test


do a cycle of 200mg of test and 300-350mg of NPP then get bloodwork. Then do the same with tren and tell me it's a "healthier" option..

It's more to do with it causing fibrosis of tissue. Something you can't detect on blood work.

 

[RedRum OG]

I can fully understand why you'd think that, but there's an issue we have of skewed data. Nandrolone, as one of the original 'gold standards' for medical treatment, has also been one of the most thoroughly researched of the AAS. Hence we have (relatively) plenty of data and studies for us to draw conclusions from. Unfortunately the absence of data (and especially comparative data) on other AAS doesn't mean they're safer.

Highly androgenic AAS, for example, are particularly indirectly damaging because of their upregulation of the sympathetic nervous system, and the way that appears to alter the behaviour of the sinoatrial node (pacemaker), and induces tachycardia, hypertension, blood 'stickiness' and clotting factors, lipid dysfunction, calcium deposition (plaque formation) and ultimately apoptosis and fibrosis. Thus if you love NPP, and since you never come off (basically) you have no recovery issues, you may as well make use of it on occasion.



You're going to have this problem no matter what you do. As you get closer to your genetic limits, your gains will net less with each cycle. This is to be expected. It doesn't mean you need to raise your doses. If you raise your doses to gain more, you'll probably be unable to hold it all afterwards anyway. Thus it's better to allow the body to gain more slowly (which will allow it to adapt long-term) than attempt to short-circuit the process and lose it after.

One suggestion I might make: you could lower your TRT dose a bit. If you taper at the end of a cycle and slowly take your bloods down into the low-normal range of T, your rebound when you go back on cycle will be relatively stronger. Similarly, I would suggest tapering up when you go on cycle, rather than running (say) a constant 250mg/wk from the start. It's relative change that produces growth moreso than absolute doses.

PS thanks for typing up your cycle history so well! Makes it much easier for us

Thanks a lot for your time and response. Yeah I suspect nandrolone data is skewed because 1)long detection time 2)widely used illicitly 3)widely used in studies (sometimes at insane doses)

I know I'll hit some sort of limit eventually but IMHO and from what I've read that limit would be much higher with 2 compounds, for example 250 test c+ 250 NPP/week will take you much further than just 500 test/week. And yeah I'm aware it's good to stick to low doses for keeping gains long term, and not having dramatic losses during cruise... one of the many reasons I choose to do so. If a total of 400-500mg absolute max/week gets me within reach of being above average in strength or BB I will consider upping doses very slightly to possibly become great. Though this seems unlikely and am content just doing this as a hobby.

I will try the dose tapering thing. I can't remember if it was you but think it was- the whole "don't frontload" thing really changed how I viewed things and if anything try to "backload" to keep gains increasing all the way through.

Thanks again for input

Where are you getting the idea that nandrolone is worse for the cardiovascular system in comparison to tren? That's simply not true.



Do your own test


do a cycle of 200mg of test and 300-350mg of NPP then get bloodwork. Then do the same with tren and tell me it's a "healthier" option..

Unfortunately most of the stuff I'm worried about isn't stuff with cheap tests (BP/pulse, HDL/LDL etc) but harder to see stuff like hypertrophy, collagen deposits, irregular intervals etc

As far as the things I've listed the only thing tren is dramatically worse for in my body is BP, and somewhat HDL/LDL(which I don't find particularly worrying as it's barely abnormal and quickly goes to great levels during cruise)

IMHO generalizations like "tren is worse for heart" don't take into account how many thing AAS can effect directly and indirectly, some are bad for BP and RBC excess, while others mostly hypertrophy/extra collagen. Just how I see it maybe you're right and it's the worst all around.

Run dbol at like 20-30mg/day for 6-8 weeks and tell me you don't keep anything. This may not be up your alley due to wanting avoid liver stress as of now but it is something to keep in your back pocket when off the methadone and willing to give it a go. I get digestion issues from orals very easily and yet dbol/drol don't give me hardly any issues when used low dose for long term. No need to push the ridiculous doses you see on other board like 100/day dbol or 300/drol (the drol dose is still within medical therapeutic range for anemia) as sides may prevent you from using it long teen. They also work nicely pre workout to help increase work capacity which means: more weight moved=more growth. Can always use tudca and nac if liver health is really a concern.

The one thing i like about the idea of orals is "preworkout" and the great strength gains I hear about. IMHO even if a drug isn't particularly anabolic but increases strength, you will still blow up from the increase in intensity and possibly volume.

I've heard/read that things like tudca, NAC, milk thistle, dandelion etc don't actually do anything significant for protecting or healing the liver. Could be wrong though.

 

[Serotonin101]

Tudca definitely does. I've seen people recover unhealthy blood work from methyl tren runs dry quickly with tudca

 

[Intense]

It's more to do with it causing fibrosis of tissue. Something you can't detect on blood work.

Sorry I didn't mean to say blood work I also meant testing.

Unfortunately most of the stuff I'm worried about isn't stuff with cheap tests (BP/pulse, HDL/LDL etc) but harder to see stuff like hypertrophy, collagen deposits, irregular intervals etc

As far as the things I've listed the only thing tren is dramatically worse for in my body is BP, and somewhat HDL/LDL(which I don't find particularly worrying as it's barely abnormal and quickly goes to great levels during cruise)

IMHO generalizations like "tren is worse for heart" don't take into account how many thing AAS can effect directly and indirectly, some are bad for BP and RBC excess, while others mostly hypertrophy/extra collagen. Just how I see it maybe you're right and it's the worst all around.

BP, HDL/LDL, liver, and what about the kidneys and trens effect on the respiratory system? My HR goes through the roof on tren and I can't breath near as efficiently etc.. It just feels like it's doing much more harm. And blood work shows it causes more stress on my liver and kidneys vs nandrolone as well as lipids.


Then wtf is tren cough? No one actually knows. Tren is a weird drug, there's a reason it's for livestock and nandrolone is for humans.

Then you also have trens effect on the brain, long term what is it doing to your neurotransmitters? Which isn't studied at all, where nandrolone is much more understood.



I cruised on tren for like 6 months in the past and it really messed me up. So I am a little biased. Poor decision on my part btw.

 

[Intense]

I've heard/read that things like tudca, NAC, milk thistle, dandelion etc don't actually do anything significant for protecting or healing the liver. Could be wrong though.

Try methionine and choline/inositol. Your liver values will lower significantly. It's the only thing that has worked for me but I also haven't ever tried tudca and I heard it works.

 

[Cashgarden]

Curious - am I the only one who uses Deca for joint relief? lol
I'm not using it now but as I get into competition mode and start feeling pain in my joints from lifting heavy, sometimes I add 200mg a week into my cycle to help the joints (and it's other benefits for strength).

 

[RedRum OG]

Then wtf is tren cough? No one actually knows. Tren is a weird drug, there's a reason it's for livestock and nandrolone is for humans.

Then you also have trens effect on the brain, long term what is it doing to your neurotransmitters? Which isn't studied at all, where nandrolone is much more understood.

Tren cough is just oil in the bloodstream. Not actually unique to tren, just most common and known, usually tren ace so used daily so more likely to happen.

Also "for livestock" doesn't mean anything. Using that as a basis to say nandrolone is better is a bad example of correlation vs causation.

 

[Genetic Freak]

Tren cough is just oil in the bloodstream. Not actually unique to tren, just most common and known, usually tren ace so used daily so more likely to happen.

Also "for livestock" doesn't mean anything. Using that as a basis to say nandrolone is better is a bad example of correlation vs causation.

It's hypothesised tren cough could be BA reaching alveoli in the lungs and being expelled, after entering venous circulation...

There is some thought tren powder is responsible for causing allergic reaction, it could be a combination of both that gives tren its particularly harsh side effect..

 

[Serotonin101]

The odd thing is I've had tren cough plenty of time to count. I've only had it from another compound once, and it was mast prop, and the cough was much less severe. More just burning in my lungs and throat.

 

[Genetic Freak]

The odd thing is I've had tren cough plenty of time to count. I've only had it from another compound once, and it was mast prop, and the cough was much less severe. More just burning in my lungs and throat.

Same here a few years ago.... Weird...

 

[Serotonin101]

Same here a few years ago.... Weird...

Could it potentially be a result of the acid groups being cleaved off and expelled from the lungs? Since the blood seems to have a high concentration of esterase and other enzymes, it could speed the process along?

 

[RedRum OG]

It's hypothesised tren cough could be BA reaching alveoli in the lungs and being expelled, after entering venous circulation...

There is some thought tren powder is responsible for causing allergic reaction, it could be a combination of both that gives tren its particularly harsh side effect..

I guess by oil I meant everything except active ingredient, should've been more clear. I've done probably about 300 injects of tren in my life and never gotten a hint of cough. Yet some people complain it happens constantly. Bad luck? Histamine/allergic overreaction like you said?