Lack of diversity in 12 step?

[aihfl]

I recently met a friend of a friend. He started an agnostic/atheist AA meeting in South Florida and recently rewrote the first 164 pages of the Big Book from a secular perspective and called it "A Secular Sobriety" (it is available on Amazon BTW). I highlighted this, and while I certainly don't have an answer, I think it's an interesting enough question to pose to people in recovery from a diverse assortment of backgrounds.

"AA in the United States is very white and very Christian. I've attended meetings that set out pictures of Jesus along with the posters of the 12 steps and 12 traditions. It's not my place to criticize a group like that if it helps them to stay sober. If that's what works for them, great! However, this kind of group must understand that visitors and newcomers may be very turned off by these things. The group may decide they don't care about visitors or newcomers. That is certainly their perogative. Every group is autonomous and should remain so. What I'm asking is that AA World Services and individual members begin to recognize and embrace all of the existing and future members' beliefs...Also, where are all the African-Americans? I'm sure that alcoholism affects them equally. I've been to meetings all over the United States. Is there a separate underground black AA I'm not aware of?"

I thought about the last meeting I went to, which is a small group not too far from where I live. I was arguably the most diverse person in the room and I'm not even sure I should count because Jewish people are basically counted as white. Not a single ethnic minority in a room of about 10 people. As my DOC was alcohol (prescriptions drugs; downers; were merely used to potentiate the sedative effects of the alcohol) I haven't been to a NA meeting in years, (not since a sponsor disastrously convinced me to cold turkey off my psych meds and I tried to kill myself but that's another post) so I can't say whether or not this lack of diversity generally carries over there too.

Interested in hearing what you all think.

 

[Erikmen]

I don't know if there is any underground AA, but from my perspective the idea of AA being Christian with posters of Jesus would only make sense to me if we meeting in one of these churches that sometimes lend their space for meetings.

I have gone to AA but instead of Christian the idea of a higher power was into place more like something we don't know and as in not controlling our addiction something that's beyond our understanding. Maybe in US things are different but I can say for sure that's not like that in Europe and in few other countries I had the chance to participate.

The entire idea of AA/NA was born our of a dialogue between 2 people who shared the same addiction problem and noticed that by talking about their own issues and their very same idea of wanting to quit was powerful enough to make them sober. At least for one day. Sharing is the main idea for so long could have had influenced people to 'color' things differently depending on where you are. In the meetings I have attended we have never spoken about religion and I was pretty multicultural group, they even welcomed some homeless guys that wanted to quit drugs and alcohol.

I have always tried to see what works for me. Sometimes talking and hearing about other people's problems can help you immensely and give you that motivation to get your live straighten up. To run that extra mile. Nothing white or Christian about that, and I wasn't really into the 12 steps either but mostly into going to the meetings and trying to be sober for one day. N/A is a bit more 'underground' than AA IMO although it does meet the same standards of sharing.

So maybe, just maybe NA would suit you better than NA, but again I'm not in the US right now and I can't say it's like that where you live. But if you really want to achieve your goals, forget the BS and focus on talking about your issues. Again, NA where I live is more 'underground' - so to speak. Maybe because we talk about drugs which is obviously not as acceptable as drinking.

Take care and good luck with your goals.

 

[cj]

I live in the southeastern US. Meetings here are usually held in church's and usually end with the Lord's Prayer. It's a very white Christian atmosphere indeed. NA and AA are about the same in that respect around here. There has also been a large influx of church centered recovery groups like celebrate recovery which don't even try to hide there religious message. There is actually a church near me that caters exclusively to addicts and alcoholics which I find somewhat creepy as those things often end up extremely cultish. I'm happy there is choice but I wish there where more secular options around me.

 

[aihfl]

I'm happy there is choice but I wish there where more secular options around me.

Even in populated areas there isn't much choice. Greater Orlando has a population of approximately 2.1 million people, and there is just one SMART Recovery group (and if traffic is heavy it's an hour's drive easy) that only meets twice a month and we are fortunate to have an agnostic/atheist AA meeting, but that is just two meetings a week out of hundreds.

I've gone full circle with 12 step. I was part of the Jonestown Kool-Aid crew, then I hated it and railed against it, and at this point I'm largely indifferent. I will go occasionally to the agnostic/atheist meeting, but more just to see friends I don't otherwise see. I don't have, nor want, a sponsor, I don't read the Big Book (although I do read a lot of secular recovery and self-help books), and I don't work steps, but I do occasionally enjoy talking to others in recovery and sometimes it's even helpful. Getting through life sober is hard as shit sometimes and animosity toward another group of people doesn't accomplish anything toward that end.

 

[simco]

I've only been to a few AA meetings in my life. But I'm fairly involved in NA, and have been active in NA in several very different US states. My sense has always been that NA tends to be less Christian in its orientation than NA. As annoying as NA old timers can be, I've been glad on several occasions when they shut someone down who wanted to read from the Bible or similar.

As far as other kinds of diversity, I've found most NA groups to be pretty well-rounded--with the composition seeming roughly proportional to the demographic breakdown of the local (addicted) population.

 

[cj]

Even in populated areas there isn't much choice. Greater Orlando has a population of approximately 2.1 million people, and there is just one SMART Recovery group (and if traffic is heavy it's an hour's drive easy) that only meets twice a month and we are fortunate to have an agnostic/atheist AA meeting, but that is just two meetings a week out of hundreds.

I've gone full circle with 12 step. I was part of the Jonestown Kool-Aid crew, then I hated it and railed against it, and at this point I'm largely indifferent. I will go occasionally to the agnostic/atheist meeting, but more just to see friends I don't otherwise see. I don't have, nor want, a sponsor, I don't read the Big Book (although I do read a lot of secular recovery and self-help books), and I don't work steps, but I do occasionally enjoy talking to others in recovery and sometimes it's even helpful. Getting through life sober is hard as shit sometimes and animosity toward another group of people doesn't accomplish anything toward that end.

Where you seriously in Jonestown with the people's temple? I watched a documentary on that craziness the other day.

 

[aihfl]

Where you seriously in Jonestown with the people's temple? I watched a documentary on that craziness the other day.

No LOL, I was just fanatical, dogmatic and obnoxiously self-righteous about 12 step recovery. Yes, Jonestown was some fucked up repugnant shit, to quote Samuel L. Jackson. I would have only been 6 when Jonestown happened anyway. Just using it as a metaphor.

EDIT: The agnostic/atheist AA meeting gets a lot of traffic from those with dual addictions (alcohol and illicit substances) and those addicted only to drugs and not alcohol since to my knowledge there is not a similar NA group in the area.

 

[neversickanymore]

Here is an old thread about alternate versions to the twelve steps

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/678617-Alternate-Versions-and-Added-Steps-to-the-12-Steps

 

[cj]

No LOL, I was just fanatical, dogmatic and obnoxiously self-righteous about 12 step recovery. Yes, Jonestown was some fucked up repugnant shit, to quote Samuel L. Jackson. I would have only been 6 when Jonestown happened anyway. Just using it as a metaphor.

EDIT: The agnostic/atheist AA meeting gets a lot of traffic from those with dual addictions (alcohol and illicit substances) and those addicted only to drugs and not alcohol since to my knowledge there is not a similar NA group in the area.

I had so many questions I wanted to ask had you been there lol. The birth of the rehab industry is some really terrifying reading. Syanon, strait inc, the people's temple each one crazier then the last.

 

[Boku_]

I haven't been to a NA meeting in years, (not since a sponsor disastrously convinced me to cold turkey off my psych meds and I tried to kill myself but that's another post) so I can't say whether or not this lack of diversity generally carries over there too.

Interested in hearing what you all think.

If you're prescribed psych meds ALWAYS ask your treating doctor if you want to change or stop the dose, and whatever you do don't go to a Church of Scientology centre for a free personality test or consider going to a Scientologist run rehab. I believe they are called Narconon. Those Scientology nutters are no good and their main MO is to get you to purchase bullshit Scientologist self-help books. Narconon rehabs only offer drug addiction rehab and counselling services cos the church of Scientology love to brain wash venerable people like current or former drug addicts into thinking they can't live without the help and guidance of their bullshit expensive Scientologist Religion. The really dangerous thing about Scientologists is they always preach life is better without pysch meds even for people with chronic serious long term mental illness when the majority of medical evidence from the mainstream medical community shows patients with Schizophrenia or Bi-polar etc function far better and live more stable and productive lives while medicated. Anyway i am sure most BLers know about how dodgy the church of Scientology is.

As far as the original Question when i was going to NA around ten years in Melbourne Au i must admit the diversity really was lacking compared to the general multicultural population in Melbourne. I went to maybe 30 NA meetings over a six period to just give it a go and i think for the record i only saw one Asian guy and one Asian girl at meetings regularly. As for black people i don't think i saw one single African-Australian or Indian/Pakistani-Australian at the NA meetings i attended. They weren't all Anglo english irish Aussies at the meetings there were some white European Aussies of Greek, Italian and Yugoslav background. But yeah for the most part NA in Melbourne is predominately white.

To be honest i didn't find NA to be that overly Christian in Melbourne but as a person who doesn't believe in a higher power and i didn't necessarily agree 100 percent with the philosophy that as a drug addict you are helpless in making a choice or decision to use drugs i wasn't able to get fully into the whole 12 step program and to be truthful i only went to meetings for that six month period cos i was unemployed, once i got a job in hospitality that was evening shift i found it impossible to fit going to meetings into my lifestyle. Don't get me wrong i found the NA members at the meetings i went to very friendly and non-judgemental but i had a personal issue in that i got to the point that i wanted to quit smoking cigarettes and the whole 12 step routine of meetings is based around people socially smoking before and after the meetings as well as the mid meeting break so i came to the conclusion NA meetings ironically are the worst place to go if you want to quit cigarettes. I guess 12 step programs aren't everyone's cup of tea

 

[Jabberwocky]

I had so many questions I wanted to ask had you been there lol. The birth of the rehab industry is some really terrifying reading. Syanon, strait inc, the people's temple each one crazier then the last.

Have you been reading Maia's work?

 

[cj]

Have you been reading Maia's work?

I haven't but I am familiar with it to some extent. I'm guessing your referring to The Trouble With The Troubled Teen Industry? I had a friend in high school who got sent to one of those tough love boarding schools. His stories got me interested in the subject of brainwashing otherwise known as behavior modification. It's terrible to realize that this stuff is still going on right now.

Honestly it's totally turned me off to drug treatment in general because I recognize the little bits and pieces that are still left over from those horribly abusive places. The last place I went used "confrontation therapy" where one person was picked out by the counselor and the group went around telling them everything they didn't like about them. It was fucked up and only a tiny taste of what could be done.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Yup, I think the book is called Help at Any Cost. It's super intense but you'd love it. I too knew people growing up who have been sent to such hell holes (actually one of the places in Utah she investigated was the one a friend's sister was shipped off to). I'm going to send you a related pm about this shortly.

 

[aihfl]

I dropped off a friend at the airport this evening and decided to hit a NA meeting on the way home to see if the generalizations my acquaintance made about AA hold true in NA too. There were a handful (<5) of Hispanics, and the rest was the usual lily white crowd I've encountered to be the norm in 12 step recovery groups. The room certainly did not conform to the demographics of the area as a whole (41% white, 28% Hispanic, 25% African-American, 4% Asian).

So getting back to the original point of this post, do any of you have any insight into ethnic minorities tend to be underrepresented in recovery support groups? Does it challenge the supposed uniformity of addiction rates across ethnic lines? Or do any of you think there may be some sociological component to addiction and/or recovery in minority communities that are distinct from that of white America (or caucasian society wherever you may be)? Maia Szalavitz, where are you when we need you? Does anyone else need a topic for a doctoral dissertation (I've already jumped thru that hoop and am not doing it again)?

 

[RDP89]

I saw alot more diversity in N.A. than I ever saw in A.A., but it pretty much depended on where I went. Inner city meetings had alot more black and hispanic attendees(in N.A., that is), whereas everywhere else was overwhelmingly white. I also actually received what I perceived as veiled racist "warnings" that I might want to stay away from N.A. meetings, especially on certain parts of town, as they were more "ghetto". I was like wtf? One of the biggest reasons I don't go to either is the undeniable religious connotations in their programs.( I don't buy into the powerlessness stuff either.)

 

[Ds]

I stopped going to a local meeting because of racism. Sadly it was my home group, i now have a new home group which is awesome.
Its held at a lgbt church,and to be honest i feel more comfortable there then i do at any meeting in my area.

I stay away from 'round robbin' aka 'tag' meetings,because at those meetings i will hear the same people share again,and again,never any time do i hear the newcomer share.

Some meetings I've been to are like fashion shows,where me being the newcomer i felt extremely uncomfortable at.
I've attended the meeting once with my sponsor,and found myself alone while everyone around me was talking in groups,including my sponsor.
I now focus going to treatment meetings,(AA/NA inside treatment centers).i feel like i can better help others early in recovery there by sharing my own experience,strength,and hope with those guys and gals. I suggest to anyone that goes to meetings that they should give a 'treatment' meeting a shot.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I dropped off a friend at the airport this evening and decided to hit a NA meeting on the way home to see if the generalizations my acquaintance made about AA hold true in NA too. There were a handful (<5) of Hispanics, and the rest was the usual lily white crowd I've encountered to be the norm in 12 step recovery groups. The room certainly did not conform to the demographics of the area as a whole (41% white, 28% Hispanic, 25% African-American, 4% Asian).

So getting back to the original point of this post, do any of you have any insight into ethnic minorities tend to be underrepresented in recovery support groups? Does it challenge the supposed uniformity of addiction rates across ethnic lines? Or do any of you think there may be some sociological component to addiction and/or recovery in minority communities that are distinct from that of white America (or caucasian society wherever you may be)? Maia Szalavitz, where are you when we need you? Does anyone else need a topic for a doctoral dissertation (I've already jumped thru that hoop and am not doing it again)?

There is definitely a cultural component to recovery. For instance, among some communities such a certain Asian American communities there is so much denial and stigma surrounding mental illness that there are a lot of barrior to treatment. I've experience this most intensely with my local Armenian population (the biggest in America).

However, that doesn't excuse the lack of diversity in 12 step communities. It's not just a lack of cultural or ethnic diversity, because truth be told - at least in a city as large as LA - there are quit a few very open meetings with lots of people of lots of cultural backgrounds. The biggest problem with a lack of diversity I have seen or experienced in these groups is actually small mindedness, a fear of "different" ideas (a lot of people fear harm reduction because they fear it is gains popularity in their recovery community it will "endanger" their own recovery and that of those they have come to care about - of course this is a product itself of small mindedness).

Abstinence only based 12 step communities really use groupthink and identification with the group as a primary means of "promoting" (I see it more as "enforcing") individual sobriety. Community is indeed crucial to recovery, but I'd simply as people what kind of community people truly want to be a part of... what is authentic to them, do they feel heard in meetings, accepted for who they are, etc - or are they infantalized, marginalized within the group and judged for whatever they're into?

 

[aihfl]

Interesting and thought provoking. I live in a majority-minority neighborhood. One of my neighborhood smoking buddies is an older black woman who lives with family and has served serious time for a variety of offenses and has ongoing health problems due to her past drug abuse (as she put it, "if I could drink it, eat it, snort it or inject it, I did it"). Social bonds (whether it's family, or from what I see, church) seem much stronger in African-American communities. I have nothing but my own observations to base this on, but you just don't seem to see or hear about the bedraggled black addict dragging themselves into a meeting because they literally have nowhere else to go.

Asians are another story. Remember I'm half Japanese. To say they're completely fucked when it comes to mental health is the understatement of the century. And I'm not even talking about only addiction. I went to see a favorite great aunt in Japan in 2004 who had fairly advanced Alzheimers. She had no idea who I was (probably who she was either) but we had a great visit and she was her same bubbly self and chatted up a storm, but the family treated her like some kind of shameful secret. If this is the way your own family treats someone who has a condition that they can't help, I can't imagine it isn't exponentially worse for addicts (who many still think can help their condition).

 

[Gemini666]

I'm from Milwaukee and that's not how meetings are here at all. People of all different types of ethnicities come to meetings here and there is a large black population as well. Actually, at some meetings I go to there are less white than black people. I didn't know that 12 step meetings were like this in other parts of the country.

 

[simco]

Gemini, that was my experience in Illinois, too. More black people than white people. California was similarly diverse--NorCal...a lot of latinos, black and white folks. Only consistently underrepresented group was asians.
Gotta admit, in my new digs in the US southwest, things are whiter than I would have guessed.