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Should religions be classified as Fake News? The bible seems to say yes.

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God is not guilty of sin, we are, and since God is a God of justice, and we don't have the ability to judge God, God is adhering to the golden rule better than any of us ever could.

God also doesn't need curing, so I'm not sure why He would be expected to cure us, especially since we have sinned against Him.

I am not surprised that you would not see curing as a better moral option than killing.

You have judged God as good and just while at the same time saying that you do not have the ability to judge God.

It is not surprising that that twisted thinking has you adoring a genocidal son murdering prick of a God. Your judgement, that you say you cannot do, is corrupted by your beliefs.

You do not have the intelligence to argue for your God or see how evil he is.

Regards
DL
 
I am not surprised that you would not see curing as a better moral option than killing.

You have judged God as good and just while at the same time saying that you do not have the ability to judge God.

It is not surprising that that twisted thinking has you adoring a genocidal son murdering prick of a God. Your judgement, that you say you cannot do, is corrupted by your beliefs.

You do not have the intelligence to argue for your God or see how evil he is.

Regards
DL

Jesus worshipped the God of the OT, and you claim to follow Jesus. Your problem is with Jesus, not me..

The facts..

Gnosticism attempted to infiltrate Christianity and corrupt it around the second century almost 200 years after Christianity was established, thankfully, the ECF's spotted these heretical teachings and early Christians rejected these corrupt teachings that gnostics attempted to incorporate into Christianity and Gnosticism has been relegated to the trash dump of history, doesn't mean there aren't a few people from time to time who attempt to embrace it, perhaps on forums like this, about the only place where you guys might have a voice, but Gnosticism is a non issue today, its so insignificant, so small, and so jumbled from person to person that no cohesive doctrine is available, even to the gnostics who claim it.

You guys believe in things found no where in credible historical sources, and they are so late in history that they have no veracity to claim authenticity.

Gnostics are conspiracy theorists, nothing more.. Your tired views about portraying God as the devil are little more than gnostic folklore with no credibility.

For the record, I don't have the ability to judge God, judgement carries a penalty and I have nothing to penalize God for.

Attack my intelligence all you want, Christians have been attacked for 2000 years from the likes of people like you, its nothing new, we can handle it, vengeance belongs to the Lord, not us, say what you will, but its not us you have a problem with, its Jesus.
 
If it was prophesied, doesn't that suggest the hand of god fiddling around with these evil Jews free will? He was sent to die, what choice did the Jews really have?

I love how some Christians blame the Jews rather than the god who openly sent his son down to die for some reason never well explained.

More like God exploiting His omniscience and what the Jews would do when confronted with the truth, and God used this for the atoning sacrifice that brought salvation to anyone who believes in Christ.

God does choose when and how He will involved Himself in His creation, He has that right, He created it.
 
Makes no sense for god to be omniscient if we have free will, but are you saying God knew the Jews would kill Jesus so he sent Jesus to be killed by the Jews? Again, makes no sense. I'm not sure why I expect it to anyway.

Sounds close to the medieval thinking that saw the Jewish diaspora hunted across the globe. But, yeah, God is great, right? :\

An evil story made up by petty men, I'd be ashamed to believe this nonsense. Your version of god is an evil one. Thank god such believers are no longer dictating our morals. We now use reason.

If you want people to believe, why not make it plausible?
 
In my opinion, anyone who makes the claim that they have the correct answer and anyone who disagrees is wrong is displaying a significant amount of arrogance. None of us can know, despite assertions to the contrary.
 
Makes no sense for god to be omniscient if we have free will, but are you saying God knew the Jews would kill Jesus so he sent Jesus to be killed by the Jews? Again, makes no sense. I'm not sure why I expect it to anyway.

Sounds close to the medieval thinking that saw the Jewish diaspora hunted across the globe. But, yeah, God is great, right? :\

An evil story made up by petty men, I'd be ashamed to believe this nonsense. Your version of god is an evil one. Thank god such believers are no longer dictating our morals. We now use reason.

If you want people to believe, why not make it plausible?

Can you explain why an omniscient God and free will are mutually exclusive? How would you even begin to substantiate a proposition like that?

You also stated that the God of the Bible is evil, but you lack any objective justification to determine the bar for what constitutes either evil or good. Can you explain why you said that? What foundational truth would you ground your statement in apart from personal opinion?
 
In my opinion, anyone who makes the claim that they have the correct answer and anyone who disagrees is wrong is displaying a significant amount of arrogance. None of us can know, despite assertions to the contrary.

That's an odd statement to preface with "in my opinion", how then do you make an absolutist claim about knowing with an unjustifiable proposition, which you yourself admitted?

What if there are people who do know, and you simply don't? Has the thought ever crossed your mind? Or have you resolutely determined that your opinion on the matter is somehow verifiable fact that every human being is subject to?

And those of us who claim to know are arrogant? Am I arrogant for finding the evidence of my experience enough to warrant maximal belief to the extent I claim knowledge? Have you had my experience for me and then refuted it? I don't think you have.

As an agnostic, my views towards Christianity were simply "I don't know"... Not, "because I don't know, neither can you"... That to me seems arrogant.

Im reminded of a quote by Aldous Huxley "Most ignorance is vincible ignorance, people don't know because they don't want to know".

Without planting a flag, agnosticism is the most rational approach to any proposition, but you have gone beyond agnosticism with your statements friend.
 
Can you explain why an omniscient God and free will are mutually exclusive? How would you even begin to substantiate a proposition like that?

Can you surprise God?

If it sits outside of time, and is all knowing, then no, you cannot perform an action it doesn't already know of. How can you use free will in a preordained universe?

But you didn't address my complaint. How are the Jews to blame for the death of Jesus when he was sent to die by god? Why isn't god blamed?

You also stated that the God of the Bible is evil, but you lack any objective justification to determine the bar for what constitutes either evil or good. Can you explain why you said that? What foundational truth would you ground your statement in apart from personal opinion?

I have my own conception of good and evil. It is only my opinion, just as god is yours.

You have to understand, this thing isn't real but you formed a belief that it is, based on what you consider evidence, just as I have.

An evil god would punish its creations for enacting its will, as your god and the believers thereof have done for 2000 years.

What is your view of modern Jews?
 
Can you surprise God?

If it sits outside of time, and is all knowing, then no, you cannot perform an action it doesn't already know of. How can you use free will in a preordained universe?

But you didn't address my complaint. How are the Jews to blame for the death of Jesus when he was sent to die by god? Why isn't god blamed?



I have my own conception of good and evil. It is only my opinion, just as god is yours.

You have to understand, this thing isn't real but you formed a belief that it is, based on what you consider evidence, just as I have.

An evil god would punish its creations for enacting its will, as your god and the believers thereof have done for 2000 years.

What is your view of modern Jews?

No, I cant surprise God, God has all knowledge. You made the claim that it makes no sense to have free will with an omniscient God, but you still haven't explained why free will and an omniscient God are mutually exclusive. Jesus knew the Jews would kill Him, they conspired against Him because He told the truth, it challenged their beliefs and they didn't like it, so they appealed to Pontius Pilate, the Roman prefect over Judea to have Him killed. This shouldn't be news to anyone, it was both prophesied by the Prophets and documented in the NT, verbatim. As a result, Israel came under judgement, Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed, just as Christ said it would be, this took place in 70ad when the Romans utterly destroyed and leveled the city of Jerusalem by Titus under the Roman Emporor Vespasian, the successor to Nero, who died a few years earlier.

You said, "Its only opinion, just as god is yours", but God isn't some opinion I have, He isn't something that I thought up one day and decided to believe in, He made His presence known to me, He guides me and I appeal to Him, God is a sentient agent operating apart from what I believe. You also made an unjustifiable assertion when you said "You have to understand, this thing isn't real", but you couldn't begin to explain why or how your statement is true. You then go on to say God is evil, yet you still have no justification to even make that claim, its worse than having an opinion, its a vacuous statement that carries no truth value.

As for my view of the modern Jews... Christians are to pray for the Jews, we know Gods plan for them and we want the same for them that we want for the rest of the world, to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. They are still in disbelief, which the Bible teaches will be the case until Jesus returns, (read Zechariah 12-14 and Romans 11). Jesus could never return until the Jews were in Israel, which only took place in recent history, and Christ is prophesied to return when the nation of Israel is under attack by the nations of the earth. While there is a growing angst in the world towards Israel, I don't think a war against the Jews is likely in our immediate future, but considering the hornets nest surrounding Jerusalem its only a matter of time before the Jews build their temple sparking world scale tensions, specifically with the nations of the Middle East, which will destabilize the region, having a ripple effect throughout the world with the nations who are allied with Israel and the middle eastern nations.
 
That's an odd statement to preface with "in my opinion", how then do you make an absolutist claim about knowing with an unjustifiable proposition, which you yourself admitted?

What if there are people who do know, and you simply don't? Has the thought ever crossed your mind? Or have you resolutely determined that your opinion on the matter is somehow verifiable fact that every human being is subject to?

And those of us who claim to know are arrogant? Am I arrogant for finding the evidence of my experience enough to warrant maximal belief to the extent I claim knowledge? Have you had my experience for me and then refuted it? I don't think you have.

As an agnostic, my views towards Christianity were simply "I don't know"... Not, "because I don't know, neither can you"... That to me seems arrogant.

Im reminded of a quote by Aldous Huxley "Most ignorance is vincible ignorance, people don't know because they don't want to know".

Without planting a flag, agnosticism is the most rational approach to any proposition, but you have gone beyond agnosticism with your statements friend.

I was admitting that I could be wrong about everyone who claims to be right and that others who disagree are wrong displaying arrogance, which is why I used "in my opinion". Of course I've had the thought that other people know and I don't, many, many times, in fact my childhood and young adulthood had that concept looming large in my mind. But that goes both ways. Does it ever occur to you that YOU could be wrong? My point in this whole matter is that we all live our own truths and I find it rude to try to make absolutist statements about what is and isn't what people should believe in. I don't believe in the Christian concept of god, I don't believe religion is the answer, I believe it is AN answer. But you should feel free to believe whatever you want, that's valid too, because no one knows. I just don't like seeing people taking a moral high ground stand as if their beliefs are superior to another's.

Christianity could be right, Islam could be right, Judaism could be right, tribal shamanism could be right, atheism could be right... but it would require that all the rest of them are wrong. Christianity is just one among many religions that has developed. They all have their prophets and their mythologies. It just seems more likely to me that no one is right, that we're all just trying to understand something far beyond our ability to grasp. So that's where I'm at. I have things that I believe (that we are all the universe experiencing itself subjectively), but my beliefs slowly shift over time as I have more life experiences, and I remain open to the very real possibility that I'm way off the mark, and I don't expect to ever know what's going on. How could I?

Anyway I apologize for calling you arrogant (not just you by the way), I was having a bad day at work. I do, however, find some (often well-intentioned) arrogance in making absolute statements about the nature of reality. There are as many ways of perceiving reality as there are people, there are many religions as there are cultures. Isn't making the statement "[I am/my religion] is absolutely correct" necessitating the implication that everyone else is wrong?
 
I was admitting that I could be wrong about everyone who claims to be right and that others who disagree are wrong displaying arrogance, which is why I used "in my opinion". Of course I've had the thought that other people know and I don't, many, many times, in fact my childhood and young adulthood had that concept looming large in my mind. But that goes both ways. Does it ever occur to you that YOU could be wrong? My point in this whole matter is that we all live our own truths and I find it rude to try to make absolutist statements about what is and isn't what people should believe in. I don't believe in the Christian concept of god, I don't believe religion is the answer, I believe it is AN answer. But you should feel free to believe whatever you want, that's valid too, because no one knows. I just don't like seeing people taking a moral high ground stand as if their beliefs are superior to another's.

Christianity could be right, Islam could be right, Judaism could be right, tribal shamanism could be right, atheism could be right... but it would require that all the rest of them are wrong. Christianity is just one among many religions that has developed. They all have their prophets and their mythologies. It just seems more likely to me that no one is right, that we're all just trying to understand something far beyond our ability to grasp. So that's where I'm at. I have things that I believe (that we are all the universe experiencing itself subjectively), but my beliefs slowly shift over time as I have more life experiences, and I remain open to the very real possibility that I'm way off the mark, and I don't expect to ever know what's going on. How could I?

Anyway I apologize for calling you arrogant (not just you by the way), I was having a bad day at work. I do, however, find some (often well-intentioned) arrogance in making absolute statements about the nature of reality. There are as many ways of perceiving reality as there are people, there are many religions as there are cultures. Isn't making the statement "[I am/my religion] is absolutely correct" necessitating the implication that everyone else is wrong?

You don't need to apologize, I understood the context of what you were saying... But check this out, because this is something that really has been bugging me for years.. You say people have their own truths, and I agree, people define their own truths now more than ever.. But here is the issue.. When antithetical truths meet, there is disagreement, and if everyone simply defined their own truth, then the result could only be chaos. We live in a weird post truth age where personal beliefs define truth, rather than people conforming to the truth. As a philosopher, perhaps one of my greatest struggles is with this current generation and how truth is being redefined into something that changes or is somehow malleable and relative, but truth, in principle, cannot change, and our beliefs don't affect it, nor can they. What I see is a world full of axomatic beliefs, which can be compelling, but I want more, I want the truth. I want the truth that all truth is contingent on. That we are simply the universe experiencing itself is nothing more than a vague assertion, one that I myself at one point in time held to, but it doesn't answer any of the big questions, its just not capable as an ideology.

You asked me if it occurred to me if I could be wrong, presuming we are talking about the existence of God, and to be quite frank, the answer to that is no, absolutely not. Naturally you think I am closeminded, and I would say, that's the point. Ive arrived at a conclusion via deduction which yields a different result than induction, which I think there are major problems with.

Rather than letting my statement get you upset or inciting some feelings of disdain over my certainty, ask yourself, and truly invest time into this question. What truth can all truth rest on, what truth is all truth contingent on. This question nearly drove me insane, and I kinda stumbled on the answer inadvertainly, because when I gave my life to Christ, it wasn't to answer a philosophical question, rather, I acknowledged that I had some serious flaws about my character, and no matter how hard I tried, those flaws were affecting every aspect of my life. Christ did change me in that regard, but the 'aha moment' came later.

Perhaps one of my greatest struggles with being a Christian is having to deal with other Christians. Non believers simply lack an understanding of Christian theology, and that can be changed, but Christians by far have proven to be the most dogmatic and theologically inept of all the people I encounter. I later found out that this was the fate of the Church, as scripture teaches, but it doesn't change the fact that my greatest opponents of the Christian faith, are in fact Christians, which seems paradoxical, but its very true. An example of bad Christiantiy would be for example how Christians treat the lgbt community, or how Christians line up to accost a woman in a frail emotional state who is about to get an abortion, and rather than loving these people as we are commanded, Christians are judging them, against the will of Christ.

Nothing could be said against Christiantiy that infuriates me more than how Christians misrepresent the truth of our faith, leaving people like me to suffer from their ignorance, because non believers have quite honestly had enough of that nonsense, and myself, and others like me get lumped together with them, but I digress..
 
Again Gnostic, why would a risen alive christ need to feast on the so called 'cursed' earth or the fruits of that cursed earth (fish) unless it was done to impart a greater emphasis on what is Holy and godly in creation? Why would Christ (a being enbuied with gnosis) engage in some trivial matter of the flesh?
Also, the early church fathers could trace back the genesis of their teaching back to the apostles during the time of christ, (Iraeneus was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of the apostle John). Who do you trace your sources for this gnosis to? Valintinus?
 
Rather than letting my statement get you upset or inciting some feelings of disdain over my certainty, ask yourself, and truly invest time into this question. What truth can all truth rest on, what truth is all truth contingent on. This question nearly drove me insane, and I kinda stumbled on the answer inadvertainly, because when I gave my life to Christ, it wasn't to answer a philosophical question, rather, I acknowledged that I had some serious flaws about my character, and no matter how hard I tried, those flaws were affecting every aspect of my life. Christ did change me in that regard, but the 'aha moment' came later.

People can engage in questioning and not arrive at the same deductions that you have. There's a tinge of righteousness in your post in that you implicate non-believers as non-thinkers. Just because someone doesn't believe in what you do, does not mean that they have not engaged in inquiry; nor does it mean engaged in a flawed process of inquiry. In any case that's not for you to decide.

In fact you go so far as to imply that those who don't believe in God must be part of a post-truth world, i.e. they haven't gone deep with the question at all but are clearly shallow level thinkers being flippant in their life choices.

The hubris is off the charts here. I don't know why you wouldn't get along with Christians -- you are just like every one I've ever met. Even the liberal ones, for all their acceptance, can't help but make little judgmental digs at non-believers. They just can't help themselves. This is why Christianity is hemorrhaging followers and has fewer per capita followers now than it has in the past 1000 years. As long as secular governments prevent Christians from conquering people by the sword, it's going to be very hard to convince people of the "love of Christ".

Despite your attempt to appear reasonable, I find you completely parsimonious.
 
When antithetical truths meet, there is disagreement, and if everyone simply defined their own truth, then the result could only be chaos.

Yet this is already the state of the world as a result of religion. We will never have a world where there are no antithetical truths, it's impossible. Each human culture has developed and inherited its own set of beliefs, and the only way to make them all in line is for one culture to subsume the culture of every other human group. Because as powerfully as you believe in Christianity, some other people believe in Islam, or Judaism, or any other. Their assertions mean as much to them as yours do to you. The only way to change them is through domination through some means.

We live in a weird post truth age where personal beliefs define truth, rather than people conforming to the truth. As a philosopher, perhaps one of my greatest struggles is with this current generation and how truth is being redefined into something that changes or is somehow malleable and relative, but truth, in principle, cannot change, and our beliefs don't affect it, nor can they. What I see is a world full of axomatic beliefs, which can be compelling, but I want more, I want the truth. I want the truth that all truth is contingent on.

We live in a time where people feel more free to explore their own experiences, where we don't live under the threat of death or persecution for not conforming to the religion of the region. At least many people do. Naturally people will come more to their own conclusions. Throughout history most of the major religions, including Christianity, enforced obedience through fear... the fear of hell, the fear of being killed (such as during the crusades), etc. I would bet (though admittedly this is conjecture) that if they had been allowed, plenty of people would have left Christianity or any other religion and arrived at their own conclusions. We also live in a time where we have science to understand a lot more about what things are that used to have no explanation... we understand (or are beginning to understand) the structure of the universe and our place in it. This produces a greater degree of questioning as well.

That we are simply the universe experiencing itself is nothing more than a vague assertion, one that I myself at one point in time held to, but it doesn't answer any of the big questions, its just not capable as an ideology.

I disagree. I think it's at least as capable as Christianity. The only thing Christianity has going for it that my ideology doesn't is that it has a long tradition, and texts written by men from thousands of years ago. What are the big questions? Let's see... What are we? It answers that for me. What is the universe? It answers that for me. What is our place? It answers that for me. What is the meaning of life? It answers that for me. What happens when we die? It answers that for me. What created the thing that created us? Well, that's a question no one can possibly answer.

I want to mention that I arrived at my beliefs through critical thought and powerful experiences from my own life, just like you. I had an experience when I was 18 where I awake from my life. It was precisely like waking up from a dream, you shake off the dream, which you had fully believed without question was reality, but when you wake up, you realize how silly that belief was, and wonder how you could have ever believed it. I realized that I am the universe, I am everyone, we are all the same "I". The truth was self-evident, it was an experience I simply KNEW to be true. This sounds no different from what you describe. I have had more experiences and a whole lot of thought about it since. The scope of my apparent understanding has grown since then, but I remain convinced. If I were to have another life experience that overturned these beliefs, I would undoubtedly be changed. Also, my ideology doesn't rest on the writing of men from thousands of years ago, colored by their culture at the time, to determine what nI should believe, how I should behave, and the answers to all those questions... it's something I derived myself out of my experiences and perceptions and thoughts. It derives from the idea that by hurting another, you are hurting yourself (quite literally). It is easy for me to be a moral person and it doesn't rely on fear of punishment or anything external to myself.

You asked me if it occurred to me if I could be wrong, presuming we are talking about the existence of God, and to be quite frank, the answer to that is no, absolutely not. Naturally you think I am closeminded, and I would say, that's the point. Ive arrived at a conclusion via deduction which yields a different result than induction, which I think there are major problems with.

And in doing so, you close off your questioning and say, yep, I've got it. My knowledge is THE knowledge, it's complete and I can't be wrong. But I think it's not only healthy but shows humility when you remain convinced that you might be wrong, in fact you're probably wrong to some degree. I have my beliefs, but further life experiences may show me differently, and I wouldn't want it any other way.

Rather than letting my statement get you upset or inciting some feelings of disdain over my certainty, ask yourself, and truly invest time into this question. What truth can all truth rest on, what truth is all truth contingent on. This question nearly drove me insane, and I kinda stumbled on the answer inadvertainly, because when I gave my life to Christ, it wasn't to answer a philosophical question, rather, I acknowledged that I had some serious flaws about my character, and no matter how hard I tried, those flaws were affecting every aspect of my life. Christ did change me in that regard, but the 'aha moment' came later.

We all have flaws, of course I do too. However I continue to make progress on them and I've come a very long way. But see, I believe I have found the truth that all truth rests on. I believed it at 18, and at 34 I still believe it, though that foundation has shifted somewhat through further life experience. I'm glad you have found it for you too, but I don't need christ or religion to have it.

Perhaps one of my greatest struggles with being a Christian is having to deal with other Christians. Non believers simply lack an understanding of Christian theology, and that can be changed, but Christians by far have proven to be the most dogmatic and theologically inept of all the people I encounter. I later found out that this was the fate of the Church, as scripture teaches, but it doesn't change the fact that my greatest opponents of the Christian faith, are in fact Christians, which seems paradoxical, but its very true. An example of bad Christiantiy would be for example how Christians treat the lgbt community, or how Christians line up to accost a woman in a frail emotional state who is about to get an abortion, and rather than loving these people as we are commanded, Christians are judging them, against the will of Christ.

Nothing could be said against Christiantiy that infuriates me more than how Christians misrepresent the truth of our faith, leaving people like me to suffer from their ignorance, because non believers have quite honestly had enough of that nonsense, and myself, and others like me get lumped together with them, but I digress..

We can agree there. The nature of many Christians is what initially led me to stop defining myself as a Christian. Also some of the best people I know are Christians who really walk the actual intended path of the religion.
 
I remember engaging in these sorts of pointless debates in IRC chatrooms back in the late-90's, desperate to convince others of my version of "the Truth"... 20 years later, it all seems so funny and naive to me.

I wish it were all trivial and harmless back-and-forth debating... But sadly, it can have very real and dramatic and horrific effects in the real world. People take this shit seriously, and as has been demonstrated on countless occasions, they're willing to take up arms to defend their views. Religion on its own is manageable. But once you introduce nationalist politics, innate (biological) tribalism, modern militaries and weapons, suddenly what was formerly "merely personal belief" becomes a force capable of indescribable destruction.

Sure, people (individually and in groups) kill each other for natural resources, political power, territory, love (ha! let's throw "opportunities for reproducing" in there for good measure), and all sorts of other bullshit reasons, so religion isn't alone as a unique source of violence in the world. But to the extent that religions affect our ability to think and analyze the world in very fundamental ways, religion deserves to be scrutinized and criticized for what it teaches and how it influences individuals and society at large.

And the ease with which y'all employ the term "The Truth," as if there were one, discrete, objective Truth "out there" in "reality" is really funny. While I would love to believe that a couple undergraduate courses in epistemology, logic, comparative literature, anthropological linguistics, etc., might help some of you folks make some important personal discoveries, I've long since realized that human beings are ultimately fundamentally emotional, irrational beings... That when we've attached ourselves emotionally to an idea or worldview, no amount of fact, reason, or dispassionate inquiry will convince us of a competing set of ideas.
 
I hate to break it to you but you're engaging in the debate right now as we speak. Somewhat patronizingly as well. I'm glad you don't feel the need to jump into religious debates every time they arise anymore, I'd like to move more in that direction myself, but they won't stop just cause you figured out whatever it is you figured out. Though these debates can be aggravating there is a lot that can be learned from them. At some point we learn all we can from them, we move out of the way and a new generation of people come in to share their own self-righteous views to be shaped through debate or reinforced through stubbornness. It's the cycle of life. Can't fight it.
 
I hate to break it to you but you're engaging in the debate right now as we speak. Somewhat patronizingly as well. I'm glad you don't feel the need to jump into religious debates every time they arise anymore, I'd like to move more in that direction myself, but they won't stop just cause you figured out whatever it is you figured out. Though these debates can be aggravating there is a lot that can be learned from them. At some point we learn all we can from them, we move out of the way and a new generation of people come in to share their own self-righteous views to be shaped through debate or reinforced through stubbornness. It's the cycle of life. Can't fight it.

"I wish it were all trivial and harmless back-and-forth debating... But sadly, it can have very real and dramatic and horrific effects in the real world. People take this shit seriously, and as has been demonstrated on countless occasions, they're willing to take up arms to defend their views. Religion on its own is manageable. But once you introduce nationalist politics, innate (biological) tribalism, modern militaries and weapons, suddenly what was formerly "merely personal belief" becomes a force capable of indescribable destruction."

In other words, I wish I could just step away and disengage and let people debate amongst themselves, but given how something ostensibly personal and private can actually lead to destruction and violence on a large scale, I now (at my more mature age) feel it incumbent upon all thoughtful and responsible people to engage critically in discussion on the topic of religion.

And again, I'm under no illusions here. Even if we could flip the magic switch and erase religion from the world completely, humans would not be at a shortage for stupid reasons to kill each other.
 
Let me add the caveat, that I personally find it incumbent on thoughtful, concerned individuals to engage in the debate.. DESPITE acknowledging this suspicion that people are fundamentally illogical and emotional, and once attached to a given narrative, it's extremely hard to convince them of an opposing set of ideas... And I totally understand why that would lead some to throw their hands up in the air and say "Fuck it... fuck them.. fuck everything, I'm out."
 
No, I cant surprise God, God has all knowledge. You made the claim that it makes no sense to have free will with an omniscient God, but you still haven't explained why free will and an omniscient God are mutually exclusive. Jesus knew the Jews would kill Him, they conspired against Him because He told the truth, it challenged their beliefs and they didn't like it, so they appealed to Pontius Pilate, the Roman prefect over Judea to have Him killed. This shouldn't be news to anyone, it was both prophesied by the Prophets and documented in the NT, verbatim. As a result, Israel came under judgement, Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed, just as Christ said it would be, this took place in 70ad when the Romans utterly destroyed and leveled the city of Jerusalem by Titus under the Roman Emporor Vespasian, the successor to Nero, who died a few years earlier.

To an all knowing god, every action has already happened. Its hard to consider choice and free will in this context. How much choice do we really have? You actually verified that the Jews didn't have a choice but to kill Jesus. It was prophesied, it was written, Jesus knewit. It had to happen for Jesus to absolve our sins by dying on the cross. In short, it was part of gods plan and the Jews were simply the tool god used to enact this plan. To me, this suggests that god is the one culpable for the death of Jesus, and it suggests that free will is nothing but an illusion.

Does it show a weakness in gods power, that he could not absolve sin in any other way?

I wonder why Pontius Pilate's wife had dreams which inspired her to beg for Jesus's life. It would seem these dreams were sent to her by another powerful entity. I can't imagine it being the devil. Was it god trying to stop the death of Jesus? That doesn't make sense. None of this does.

There is illogic in god choosing this time-line to intervene in, but I digress. Why didn't it choose to intervene 200,000 years ago, before we had language and culture and morals and stuff, a time when we could have really done with some guidance?

You said, "Its only opinion, just as god is yours", but God isn't some opinion I have,

Yeah, it is. You choose to believe this don't you? Don't you have free will?

Ultimately, the reason you hold these beliefs boils down to 'because I know'. Unforunately, that may be fine for you, but it is not good enough for me. I'd like to believe that a god loves and cares for us. I look at the world, and not just the human world, and I simply do not believe this.

You also made an unjustifiable assertion when you said "You have to understand, this thing isn't real", but you couldn't begin to explain why or how your statement is true.

It's my opinion, but I actually think there is both no evidence for the reality of the christian god, and evidence AGAINST this idea. Such as the theology that christian's often resort to. It does not make logical sense to punish people for killing a god that had to die to save people. This suggests that christians have it very wrong, or you do at least.

I don't think god is anything, but I consider the thing you view to be god as evil. An entity that punishes it creations with hellfire for simply being as they were created.

But, I shouldn't need to add this, I do not believe a supernatural entity sits outside of time and is responsible for creating the universe. I do not have the answers, my point is that christians such as you also do not have the answers.

You then go on to say God is evil, yet you still have no justification to even make that claim, its worse than having an opinion, its a vacuous statement that carries no truth value.

Any statement on god is vacuous, IMO, and this one certainly is also. I freely admit that. I don't believe in something absurd such as "evil", I think there is right and wrong and it is up to each human to discover that themselves. I do believe that using ancient texts such as the OT to determine right and wrong leads to what we could call "evil".

I appreciate that you have clearly though about this a lot, but I find your certainty alarming and tiresome.
 
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I think we as humans have such a thing as free will, but actions have repercussions that inevitably lead to a form of destiny. So in some sense we 'choose' our destiny. The laws of nature are but foot prints of god. We are free will beings who are free to act within set parameters of reality. Light for example is both a particle and a wave, God is, but isn't, but is... if you catch my drift.
So is the Bible fake news? Well to start answering that question we have come to some common understanding or language to discuss the topic.
1. The Bible is a collection of different works written down by men, at times by scribes.
2. The only part of the Bible that calls itself ' news' is the New Testament or Gospel 'good news' according to so and so.
3. The other parts of the Bible like the book of chronicles or kings vol 1 and2 these books read more like other ancient historians such as Herodotus

So let's start with the broader question: Are some 'myths' grounded in reality?
 
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