Newbie question about opiate and testosterone

[kris50]

Heres the setup. Im 45 and very athletic. Ive had a couple of ortho surgeries in the last few years but keep getting back to working out since thats just what I love to do. Prior to my last surgery my workouts consisted of 3 sprint triathalons a week, not for time but just to finish. I love the workout high!

About 4 years ago I injured my back without knowing how. It causes a lot of pain throughout the day and I went for a long time without going to a pain management doc and tried neurologists and etc. I wish I had done it sooner. Currently I take approximately 10-20mg of percocets a day depending on the back pain. Thats 1 or 2 10-325's I have a disc pushed in to the cord in the upper back. The percocets really do help and Ive been taking them for years. I rarely exceed that dose unless its really bad. Previously I would drink 2-24oz cans of beer to make the pain go away. I feel I have been responsible with the opiates and although it hurts more now and the percs are less effective, the amount of pain it cuts out is enough for me to be fine with. Ive tried everything else before and they really do a good job like nothing else.

With that said Im back to working out and finding myself a little tired and lass capable of pushing it. I know age is a big part of it but is that dose of opiates pretty harmful? At 45 and the desire (almost inbred need) to workout hard and intensly seems to be getting farther out of reach. Ive never taken steroids before when I was young and lifting. My friends did and WOW did they work. Id like to get back to high cardio capacity like sub 20min 5k's and bulking up.

With all that said, what would testosterone therapy do if anything? For some reason I find myself looking into the different kinds of steroids for bulking. Any thoughts from you more experienced guys would be great

 

[Username369]

I've never used steroids but as a gym rat, I wonder if you shouldn't at least wait a while to strengthen back first and not risk injuring it more. You might even be satisfied with the progress by then and if not, go nuts on the roids lol

 

[Username369]

Oh, and the opioids probably make a little difference but definitely negligeable since it keeps some pain away. You'll probably be able to reduce them as you train too

 

[CFC]

Id like to get back to high cardio capacity like sub 20min 5k's.

I find myself looking into the different kinds of steroids for bulking. Any thoughts from you more experienced guys would be great

Hi there, welcome to BL. Sorry to hear about your back, it happens to so many of us from little more than a bad bed and a twist of the trunk. Which disc went?

Generally speaking high cardio capacity and bulking are goals at opposite ends of the spectrum - if you get more bulky, your cardio capacity will probably suffer. Is that what you're aiming for?

 

[kris50]

Hi there, welcome to BL. Sorry to hear about your back, it happens to so many of us from little more than a bad bed and a twist of the trunk. Which disc went?

Generally speaking high cardio capacity and bulking are goals at opposite ends of the spectrum - if you get more bulky, your cardio capacity will probably suffer. Is that what you're aiming for?

2 discs are out, T-5 and T-7. 5 is the one causing the problems. The MRI's are pretty obvious and Ive had two neurologists opinions. Both say it was an accident of some kind and they are amazed I have no idea what did it. Apparently I should be able to remember an event like that.

Right, I should have clarified better. Im 6'4 and have been 222 20 years ago when lifting and lower cardio. 10 years ago I was 183 in the best cardio shape, almost no lifting. My body type is tall and thin. I never paid attention to lifting for my body type in the early 90's when I was young and tore up my shoulders for me to deal with now. Bench pressing is something I should have never done along with a few other common lifts.

Now Id like to gain some muscle back and can do it at the expense of some cardio. I think the back doesn't like the pounding of 5k's so Im going to build some of the muscle back. Ill stay on the cardio stuff including swimming when I can get back to it but Id like to bulk a little. I identify with a lot of those symptoms for low-t. I wonder if the answer to it isnt testosterone treatment but to just be told im getting old.

Does the dose of oxy Im taking make testosterone somewhat ineffective? Or is it fairly low? (or high)

What does starting steroids, or HGH at 45 look like for someone fairly healthy?

Would HGH or testosterone in any form help the healing process speed up along with bulking?

 

[kris50]

I've never used steroids but as a gym rat, I wonder if you shouldn't at least wait a while to strengthen back first and not risk injuring it more. You might even be satisfied with the progress by then and if not, go nuts on the roids lol

True. Im 3 months post rotator and fairly limited in motion and weights. But Im trying to plan the next steps...

 

[Username369]

True. Im 3 months post rotator and fairly limited in motion and weights. But Im trying to plan the next steps...

That's what I thought but just wanted to make sure. I've seen so many end up worse by skipping the crucial strengthening step when returning from an injury. I've heard that some mild hormone regiments could work at this stage, but unfortunately can't help you out there. About your age, I've seen plenty of even older guys in worse shape than you start and have great results. I'd suggest regular physicals though just to be sure.

 

[CFC]

Does the dose of oxy Im taking make testosterone somewhat ineffective? Or is it fairly low? (or high)

What does starting steroids, or HGH at 45 look like for someone fairly healthy?

Would HGH or testosterone in any form help the healing process speed up along with bulking?

Opiates don't make your natural testosterone less effective, rather they tend to reduce your natural production of testosterone. A blood test would let you know what your levels are.

With regards to healing, paracrine/exogenous hGH tends to be less effective than endocrine (or intra-articular) delivery of hGH/IGF-1 into the affected area - though unfortunately I don't think you'll find many willing to inject either anywhere near a spinal disc.

Having said that, decent hGH (moreso) or a ghrelin-mimetic like GHRP-2 or Ibutamoren may still help (particularly in shutting down the inflammatory cascade), though they are not without some inherent or potential risks.

Similarly, supraphysiological testosterone (ie, test at above-normal levels) can induce a substantial increase in hGH/IGF-1 and also stimulate muscle growth. However, it will shut down your HPTA (your natural test-producing system) far harder than the opiates, and may potentially cause permanent harm to it (leaving you dependent on TRT for the rest of your life).

I would recommend you pay to get a blood panel for your hormone levels (test, oestrogen, SHBG) and see how they are before deciding on a course of action.

Have you tried much dietary manipulation to boost energy/muscle growth?

 

[Erikmen]

I guess it depends how old you are. And for how long you've been using opiates.

I had been using strong opiates for nearly 2 decades, methadone was the last one - initially on high doses, at the end I used it for almost 8 years. AND, unfortunately after noticing that few things were changing (loss of body hair) tiredness, etc, I looked for a doctor and yes, my testosterone was really low. I thought that my interest in having sex had decreased because I would prefer opiates anytime but it was actually due to low levels of testosterone. Oh well, I'm over 40 so this was to be expected the doctor said.

He prescribed me an injection IM to be taken every 3 to four months and everything went back to normal. By the way, I have had a couple of ortho surgeries as well.

 

[Erikmen]

Opiates don't make your natural testosterone less effective, rather they tend to reduce your natural production of testosterone. A blood test would let you know what your levels are.

Exactly.

 

[kris50]

Opiates don't make your natural testosterone less effective, rather they tend to reduce your natural production of testosterone. A blood test would let you know what your levels are.

With regards to healing, paracrine/exogenous hGH tends to be less effective than endocrine (or intra-articular) delivery of hGH/IGF-1 into the affected area - though unfortunately I don't think you'll find many willing to inject either anywhere near a spinal disc.

Having said that, decent hGH (moreso) or a ghrelin-mimetic like GHRP-2 or Ibutamoren may still help (particularly in shutting down the inflammatory cascade), though they are not without some inherent or potential risks.

Similarly, supraphysiological testosterone (ie, test at above-normal levels) can induce a substantial increase in hGH/IGF-1 and also stimulate muscle growth. However, it will shut down your HPTA (your natural test-producing system) far harder than the opiates, and may potentially cause permanent harm to it (leaving you dependent on TRT for the rest of your life).

I would recommend you pay to get a blood panel for your hormone levels (test, oestrogen, SHBG) and see how they are before deciding on a course of action.

Have you tried much dietary manipulation to boost energy/muscle growth?

I have done a number of various diets over the years, depending upon what Im trying to achieve. Im always open to dietary manipulation methods that are effective. I like the easy and most basic approaches. Any supplements without diet would be skipping over a foundation. If you have some thoughts please share.

Also, I have good insurance and will go for the blood panel test. Of course I'd like to increase my chances of getting within range of the testosterone therapy numbers. Anything like morning or evening test, post workout, etc that change testosterone numbers?

 

[kris50]

Are the clinics designed for testosterone therapy the best place to go? Or start with primary care MD?

 

[Lotus123]

Very good posts here ^

I would look at a blood panel first, you may be able to get testosterone and/or HGH prescribed at 45 if you are lucky. Accept that you will be taking them for the rest of your life, if you cant accept this then dont take them

HGH and testosterone would help you get back into lifting although lifting on opiate painkillers from experience was alot tougher, the sedative effect of the opiates makes it harder to focus.

 

[kris50]

Very good posts here ^

I would look at a blood panel first, you may be able to get testosterone and/or HGH prescribed at 45 if you are lucky. Accept that you will be taking them for the rest of your life, if you cant accept this then dont take them

HGH and testosterone would help you get back into lifting although lifting on opiate painkillers from experience was alot tougher, the sedative effect of the opiates makes it harder to focus.

So the testosterone treatments are basically a start and never stop treatment? Its makes sense considering testosterone doesnt really rebound if its low.

The opiates I take are the fast acting ones, oxycodone, and I usually only take them in the afternoon/evening when the pain is the worst. I lift the following day around 1-2pm. So probably a 16-20 hour time gap from the last pill taken. Usually it would be a 5mg pill taken a hour or two after another 5mg, maybe 10 at the most.

Ive never been on the oxycontin or long release meds.

 

[Weirdniceguy]

FWIW, long term use of any opioid medication will cause testosterone to tank. Heres a quick copy/paste from the National institute for health about morphine, my docs started telling me about the opioid/testosterone correlation a little too late then wouldn't prescribe me the Testosterone replacement therapy. Oops hers the link;
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22515135 . I watched my T go from 500-600 my first year on pain meds to my the 100's (126, 129) 4 years in (now pain mamagement but still the same meds!). I started testosterone replacement therapy about 2 months ago and I started feeling better within the 1st week. My T is still low at the 300 range but my dose will be increased at the next telephone DR visit. Cost is killing me though - $195 per month... scared to get that testosterone online since its injected even though it cost $150 less. I hope this helps someone.

 

[Eryximachus]

If you are 45 and reasonably successful, I would seriously consider investing in a long-term HGH cycle. It will probably cost you $10K for a year, but I had similar injuries at 37 and it worked wonders. Amazing stuff. Don't do it forever despite what they say, the risk of diabetes is too great. I was running test E and primo E for that year as well, and I didn't notice any superior muscle gains really. But you are a bit more cut.