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Are SSRIs numbing & blunting agents?

MikePyle

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So SSRIs (Sertraline, Citalopram, Vortioxetine...) treat my base line anxiety quite well, also got rid of digestion problems, but I am struggling with emotional blunting, numbness, lack of motivation, indifference, no pleasure from anything or interest in engaging with anybody/anything. In an effort to avoid emotional numbness caused by Vortioxetine, I switched to Paroxetine thinking that this would possibly fix things since Paroxetine has slightly different effects than Vortioxetine but I feel the numbness coming back again. How do you get over this? Has anyone found a treatment or medication that is good for this? I'm not even getting enjoyment from food or exercise like I used to. Any ideas for augmentations to address this?


Thanks for any help/ anecdotes you guys can offer!
 
I've been off and on sertraline/Zoloft for twenty years (mostly off, but first time was in 1999. In 2010 I was prescribed the max 200mg, which I mostly stuck with till around 2013, when it was reduced to 100 (really a miscommunication from shitty healthcare). Recently I quit for a few months, and restarted two weeks ago. (There were a few other courses in there and LOTS of cold turkey stops, for anyone interested in that.)

I can't compare to other drugs, unfortunately. But I can say, that absolutely, the subjective method of action is a total reduction in emotion.

It dampens the highs and lows, and that's also how is lessens anxiety and brooding.

For certain episodes of my life, that's a good thing. But sometimes I really really need to "feel". I wind up quitting cold turkey and putting some alcohol on it, and try to get over-emotional with music. About two days off and I can cry at Sarah McLaughlin SPCA commercials again. And by day three it's too much again.

AND, I noticed fairly quickly, the drop in emotion includes a drop in motivation. When I was in college and started the antidepressant, my grades dropped hard. Somehow, I didn't have the same sense of urgency, or lacked the concern--mainly I didn't care that they dropped. You can decide for yourself whether that's good or bad, but it makes me worry now: do I continue using it so I don't freak out about my situation, or stop, risk a meltdown, but MAYBE regain some motivation to make changes? Sorry if that goes off topic.

So TL;DR for OP: it's for sure a real effect of SSRIs, it blows, but you do adjust to it. Consider how you were before and see if this is at least better. I have not found any solution for the problem.

If you have good healthcare (I don't have access to a proper psychiatrist) consider asking about options like bupropion, which doesn't involve serotonin, or a SNRI, with some norepinephrine action, at least. They might work better for you.

(ALthough your Vortioxetine sounds really interesting to me)
 
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I can't compare to other drugs, unfortunately. But I can say, that absolutely, the subjective method of action is a total reduction in emotion.

It dampens the highs and lows
**** knows why these things are marketed for depression when they cause or enhance the very symptoms people are trying to get rid of. Every SSRI/SNRI I have tried actually makes the symptoms worse, especially emotional blunting, indifference and anhedonia.


AND, I noticed fairly quickly, the drop in emotion includes a drop in motivation. When I was in college and started the antidepressant, my grades dropped hard. Somehow, I didn't have the same sense of urgency, or lacked the concern--mainly I didn't care that they dropped.
I have experienced the same!
I am like "whatever happens, happens..."
And that bothers me!

So TL;DR for OP: it's for sure a real effect of SSRIs, it blows, but you do adjust to it. Consider how you were before and see if this is at least better. I have not found any solution for the problem.
I will probably try something like Mirtazapine, Wellbutrin, Moclobemide, Opipramol...

If you have good healthcare (I don't have access to a proper psychiatrist) consider asking about options like bupropion, which doesn't involve serotonin, or a SNRI, with some norepinephrine action, at least. They might work better for you.
Health care in central Europe is pretty good.
Wasn't Obama care supposed to give people better health care?
I am shocked when I hear about people in US not able to afford a psychiatrist.
That makes me sad. Every person in Germany and France, even the refugees, has access to nearly every psychiatrist without paying for it.
Socialist paradise ^^

(ALthough your Vortioxetine sounds really interesting to me)
On papers, yes, but essentially it's just an other plain SSRI. Nothing special about it.
 
Mirtazepine seems relatively free of emotional numbness. Compared to benzo's, I have no experience with ssri beside the one on the end of a night on mdma. And it certainly stops ectasy from working any pill after is useless I noticed. But it also created an state of numbness that differed from usual etardedness. I wonder which was the healthiest state.

Wow opipramol getiing prescribed. I bought that in Turkey as a better alternative as sedative then doxylamine, a antihistamine. But found out later after I was amazed by the effectiveness as sleeping agent that it is prescribed over here also. One of it s use as anti depressant, though I will have to check that fact in the pharmacological; compas to be sure. What does it do. As sleeping agent I would prefer it over Mirtazepine. But I have no idea about the ad effects. Opipramol seems to be the special one. Very unkown substance Mikepyle.
 
Mirtazepine sounds fun (to decipher). I mean, just looking at targets, it's a tricky path (I think alpha2 antagonists would have an "upper" effect?)

And I've always wondered about the subjective experience of antagonizing 5-HT2A, given the psychedelics are all agonists there.
No mention (wikipedia table) of 5-HT1 at all. And strongest binding for H1 (I have to click refs to see if that's agonist or antagonist or otherwise).

But you @emkee say it blocks MDMA action? So you'd think it still binds SERT.


ANYWAY: you have to be careful though, when you say "make the symptoms worse". I can see with what I think of as a deep gray depression, there is no energy or pleasure, no humor or pity, you would not want something that dampened you further.

But for me, my issue is typically too much emotion. Rapid swings between them. Such that my day can wind up dependent on how tiny things affected me. So during a long-crisis like I'm having now, dampening those is helpful, or I might be wailing and gnashing my teeth all day long. Or at least, that's the logic.

I've been starting to think of my situation ass less "dysthymia" (original diagnosis) or plain depression, and more like an anxiety disorder. That fits a lot better with the drugs I abuse. And so far cheap, regular old gabapentin has been the best "antidepressant" of any drug I've played with (I'm including the illegal ones here).

So I agree, wait for a huge shift in how shrinks look at SSRIs and the whole serotonin hypothesis. These drugs were chosen for their safety profile and tolerance; the old tricyclics and MAOIs worked a whole lot better. The "age of Prozac" might end pretty soon.


(I will personally rub Obama's feet if the Secret Service wouldn't shoot me. I only have what little healthcare I do because of his ACA. I get to see an actual MD for free, who prescribes actual meds for diabetes, which is kind of important. (Meds are free, but only like $4/month anyway.) But, that's because there're MDs willing to "accept" government insurance in my area. I was told in the hospital after a kind of crisis episode, that there was a single psychiatrist in my county of over a million people who would accept the government insurance (it doesn't pay as well), who might be able to tell me a better med for my situation.

You can sell the insurance, but there's no law that says a doctor has to take it. Doctors also don't want to live far from golf courses, and want nice views from their McMansions, so they avoid flat rural areas too. So really, being broke in, say West Texas small town, all the Obamacare out there and you might still be screwed--cause you know, doctors are all about helping people, right? As long as they're paid handsomely.)
 
Wow opipramol getiing prescribed. I bought that in Turkey as a better alternative as sedative then doxylamine, a antihistamine. But found out later after I was amazed by the effectiveness as sleeping agent that it is prescribed over here also. One of it s use as anti depressant, though I will have to check that fact in the pharmacological; compas to be sure. What does it do. As sleeping agent I would prefer it over Mirtazepine. But I have no idea about the ad effects. Opipramol seems to be the special one. Very unkown substance Mikepyle.

Opipramol is commonly prescribed in Germany.
It's an interesting drug with a beneficial side effect profile...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opipramol

It's one of the most prescribed antidepressants and anxiolytics in Germany.
It's a pretty weak antidepressant, but good anxiolytic.
Combining Mirtazapine with Opipramol might be a wise course of action for me.

https://www.sanego.de/Medikamente/Opipramol/
https://treato.com/Opipramol/?a=s
http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/67380-whats-the-best-antidepressant-for-anxiety/page-2
 
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hhaahaha when I read the title I thought you meant are SSRIs used to make agents in the secret service not care about having to kill people or something

Anyway yeah they can numb you emotionally I think prozac does it the worst but it can take a while before it fucks you up. When I was taking zoloft I hated it because it had the OPPOSITE effect, so it doesn't work like that for everyone. It's definitely something you can talk to your doctor/psychiatrist about. You could try a tricyclic antidepressant but they make you sleepy and they're addcitve, I like them becasue they're chemical structure looks a bit like a butterfly or a hornet or something
 
ANYWAY: you have to be careful though, when you say "make the symptoms worse". I can see with what I think of as a deep gray depression, there is no energy or pleasure, no humor or pity, you would not want something that dampened you further.
Yeahh, that describes my dystymia pretty well...

But for me, my issue is typically too much emotion. Rapid swings between them. Such that my day can wind up dependent on how tiny things affected me. So during a long-crisis like I'm having now, dampening those is helpful, or I might be wailing and gnashing my teeth all day long. Or at least, that's the logic.
I can understand that.
Everyone is different.

So I agree, wait for a huge shift in how shrinks look at SSRIs and the whole serotonin hypothesis. These drugs were chosen for their safety profile and tolerance; the old tricyclics and MAOIs worked a whole lot better. The "age of Prozac" might end pretty soon.
Indeed! SSRI merry go around and SSRI carousel becomes annoying with time.
I often read the interesting articles of Ken Gillman on psychotropical: http://psychotropical.info/
 
It's hard to recommend something since we're all different but Wellbutrin worked wonders for me when added to the effexor (venlafaxine) I was taking. It also cleared a bunch of other side effects I was experiencing. I hope you find something that works for you soon!
 
Thanks for the Gillman link. Went right to a very-timely (for me) VMAT2 essay.

@Username369: can't help but notice you augment venlafaxine (SNRI) with bupropion (NDRI) thus giving you an S2xNDRI.
I'm snarking on the industry here (and I've heard venlafaxine isn't much of an NRI) not you. Or at least pharma industry marketing.
 
@Username369: can't help but notice you augment venlafaxine (SNRI) with bupropion (NDRI) thus giving you an S2xNDRI.
I'm snarking on the industry here (and I've heard venlafaxine isn't much of an NRI) not you. Or at least pharma industry marketing.[/QUOTE]

After about 6 years of trial and error with over 20 different meds/combos plus the withdrawals that came with every switch, I really didn't care what was in it since if worked so perfectly lol. That combo actually has a very high rate of succes too
 
almost sounds like you might have been misdiagnosed and need an MAO..did you see more than 1 psychiatrist for your issues?
 
almost sounds like you might have been misdiagnosed and need an MAO..did you see more than 1 psychiatrist for your issues?
how so?
No, it's been only 1 psychiatrist.

I've been thinking about some ADHD component, which may be involved... (but never diagnosed)
 
almost sounds like you might have been misdiagnosed and need an MAO..did you see more than 1 psychiatrist for your issues?

MAOI are usually for depression, not anxiety. As OP explained, it started with anxiety and the depression symptoms came from the anxiety meds. An added MAOI with ssri or snri could possibly work, but it often leads to even worse symptoms. Personally, I became almost psychotic and have no recollection of the 2 weeks I was on that mix with the same starting symptoms as OP.
 
After about 6 years of trial and error with over 20 different meds/combos plus the withdrawals that came with every switch, I really didn't care what was in it since if worked so perfectly lol.

Honestly, if the monoamine theory(s) for mood disorders is true--if the Big Three each had their individual hands in making us suffer--it makes more sense to have a different pharm for each. Much easier to titrate successfully, since you'd hunt for hundreds of years to find a single molecule that could do it. Even with side effects, three pharms mean 3x as many, only when you don't consider how much of those are due to the receptor systems themselves.
 
almost sounds like you might have been misdiagnosed and need an MAO..did you see more than 1 psychiatrist for your issues?

Old school MAOIs had some of the best success rates. But when faced with the great debate: what price cheese? I guess most of us went with cheese (and chocolate and wine and the whole fermented pantry).
 
Between the dietary restriction and more risk of dangerous side effects, I think it makes a lot of sense that they're kept as a last resource. The rate of success was also a bit flawed since they were often prescribed with amphetamines back then.
 
The rate of success was also a bit flawed since they were often prescribed with amphetamines back then.

One man's flaw is another man and half the kids in the west's babysitter. (Methylate that alpha carbon, and yrs. truly--only because you can't find any amphetamines without, unless you want to beat up a junior high kid).
 
One man's flaw is another man and half the kids in the west's babysitter. (Methylate that alpha carbon, and yrs. truly--only because you can't find any amphetamines without, unless you want to beat up a junior high kid).

What I meant was that the success rate can't be attributed to MAOIs alone if they also had amphetamine, which by itself can help with depression and even anxiety in some people. There was also a significant jump in suicides that coincided with that period which is widely believed to be caused by withdrawals from those amps..
 
My own experience on Zoloft (Sertraline) was overall emotional flattening - reduced sadness, but also reduced joy, reduced motivation, reduced desire to socialize, reduced interest in everything. It was really disconcerting, because things would happen like a major car malfunction, or a roommate disappearing with $2K of my stuff, and I'd be thinking "this SHOULD piss me off, but, meh.. whatever..". The reduction of the happy side of life (joy, friendships, love, accomplishment), the loss of satisfaction with anything, began to feel like it was reinforcing and affirming the depression. And then, shadows started to "dart around" in the corners of my vision. So, I quit taking it. Haven't looked back.

(Disclaimer: Consult with your doctor before adjusting your dosage schedule. Tell them about any and all symptoms/experiences/side effects which you are aware of that you think might be related to your medication.)
 
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