Attending an Ayahuasca Ceremony with mental illness

[washingtonbound]

Hi all, thanks for taking the time to read my post. I am writing in because I am greatly considering something that may or may not be the best idea. For the past 6 weeks I've been in a dual diagnosis treatment center for what can best be described as a drug induced mood disorder. In the past I have been called bi polar type 1 but I personally like to stay away from DSM terms because labels can be very limiting and misleading. Anyway, the music therapist here came in recently and told us about how his friend who suffers with schizo-affective disorder and trauma related issues attended an ayahuasca ceremony and had phenomenal results. He want as far as saying that she had an 80% reduction of negative symptoms. I had heard of people having glowing experiences on aye before but the fact that a guy who works in rehab type places and dances the twelve steps even had positive things to say about it really got me thinking. It ignited a flame of curiosity that had been simmering for a while.

Brief history: I have taken most of the main psychedelics (acid, shrooms, salvia, ketamine, mescaline, changa, dmt, 2c-b), although it is worth noticing that I had no noticeable effects from the mescaline or changa/dmt. This could be to poor sourcing of the mescaline and improper smoking methods of the dmt, but who knows. It is possible that these two substances don't work on my brain the same way others do.

Anyway, I have unfortunately experienced drug induced psychosis in the past. Strangely it occurred first from marijuana alone but down the road it was primarily induced by lsd and ketamine. I would experience grandiose delusions, believing I had an especially enhanced relationship with god or the divine, and this would be accompanied by a loss of touch with reality. I would start believing that I could affect reality by writing things on paper and that I had special spiritual powers. Strange delusions included me believing I was a human/computer hybrid who could control the matrix, that certain people I would meet were reptilian shape-shifters in disguise, that I was a reincarnated Ancient Greek philosopher, etc. The psychosis involved a lot of strange ideas but I have narrowed it down to certain over activity in the 5-HT receptors, notably dopamine, serotonin and glutamate. Although I am not a psychiatrist I believe a lot can be narrowed down to these few neurotransmitters.

My dilemma is not knowing whether or not I should go through with this when I have the time and money. I would like to get more in touch with aspects of my spirituality that I have lost which I think the aye could really help. My main concern is not to deceive myself into thinking I'm enhancing this whilst becoming psychotic and ending up in a psychiatric facility again. There is a certain lightbulb in my brain that has "turned on" under the influence of drugs in the past that has catapulted me into hyperspace. So I am conflicted with the part of me that wants to gain valuable insights from this medicine and the other that refuses to risk having my civil liberties taken away again. I have ended up in the hospital 7 times as a result of drugs: twice from weed, twice from acid, twice from ketamine, and once from coke and amphetamines. Weed related psychosis has not occurred in three years but I have made the decision to stay away from the synthetics like acid and k even though I don't get psychotic every time. Would it be wise to attend a ceremony with a trusted a shaman? Any input is appreciated.

I'd like to mention again that I don't think I have bi polar, it is highly over diagnosed nowadays and I believe I was mislabeled that after the drug induced psychosis. So I'm not sure what I should think about future use.

 

[donvliet]

If you suffered from drug induced psychosis in the past, it would be unwise to take any drugs including ayahuasca. You would risk going into psychosis again. I understand the appeal, but trying to solve mental issues/illness by taking drugs is just gambling with your mental health.

 

[champ]

I agree with donvliet and would like to add that you should take responsibility for your own safety and that of the other ceremony participants (facilitator, other trippers). The key here is unpredictability and you could be jeopardizing the people you are with. Also, given the history you are relaying, I would be doubtful of the ethics of any "shaman" or facilitator who would agree to give you ayahuasca if they were fully informed.

I am not trying to be harsh and wish the best to you.

 

[washingtonbound]

I see what you're saying, I guess my means of justifying it are that the psychosis did not occur every time and it is pretty clear that I don't have bipolar disorder. I also heard of other other people who were diagnosed schizoaffective and bipolar who used it as therapy but I would agree that it is probably not the best idea. I am just tempted because I've heard of all the success stories.

 

[Clocktower]

Taking ayahuasca in your situation is a bad idea, for the reasons that have been listed by others and also because "ayahuasca" itself is not consistent - the brew may contain different things depending on who is making it. While there are success stories from ayahuasca use, there are also horror stories. If you REALLY REALLY REALLY MUST try oral DMT, then get some extracted DMT and a reversible MAOI like harmaline. Don't use ayahuasca.

 

[Zorai]

The ayahuasca will most likely help you see what in yourself you need to change in order to regain your mental health. This includes what thoughts to change, what's real and what isn't. It will be very healing. Following this thread to see your results my friend! Stay safe and positive!

 

[Scrofula]

I have a feeling that this ritual is part of an ongoing delusion, to be honest. You are currently in extended treatment for a "drug-induced psychosis" which you are slowly recovering from. The idea that you'd be able to coordinate a trip to another country and make contact with native peoples who will be able to communicate and procure you drugs isn't likely right now.

The delusions you describe sound a lot like a bipolar manic episode, at least to my totally-not-an-MD ears. After six weeks you're probably mostly back to earth, but you have a few "ideas" floating around, like being treated by a "shaman". That stuff doesn't really happen--but I'm sure it's possible to pay people to pretend to be shamans while they give you ayahuasca. I'm harsh with the reality because I think you need to land completely.

But, the biggest problem for you and ayahuasca is the requirement of an MAOI in the brew. You are probably on some meds right now, and it's important, for now, that you stay on them. You can NOT take an MAOI while on meds.

So hang in there, get your sleep and reality in sync with everyone, get back to your day-to-day, and then consider your options.

 

[washingtonbound]

I am actually not on any meds currently, but I see what you're saying. I haven't had any psychosis for six months but I did become hypomanic from acid about 3 months ago. My brain seems to function fine when I'm sober and I am not that concerned about my ability to fully recover but I know that doesn't mean I shouldn't be cautious. Ayahuasca is just something that has always piqued my interest due to its interesting history among other things.

 

[Scrofula]

My secret theory on Bipolar, being highly informed through thinking about it a time or two and not cluttered with things like years of schooling and residencies and all, is that the bipolar episodes are totally linked to sleep. I think any drug with any stim component is a risk.

Although I'd ask, since bipolar episodes seem like the ultimate euphoria anyway, what do you think you're missing?

If you're looking for the "insight" of psychedelics, consider a good 4-oh tryptamine; some are short-acting (1-2hr). Then you can sedative your way to a normal sleep in plenty of time.

 

[washingtonbound]

It's not as much the euphoria I look for as it is the entheogenic properties of these substances. And I felt I got plenty of insight from acid at first but then it turned on me.

 

[Mysterie]

yeah i can relate, iv had psychosis due to lsd and been institutionalised as well.

i've read that lsd has an effect where it is more likely than most other classical psychedelics to catalyse a psychotic episode.

i was diagnosed bipolar as well but i rejected it and didn't take meds aswell.

i suspect ayahuasca would be less likely to trip that switch where suddenly the world has turned on you and its persisting.

i'm interested to do a ceremony with a shaman as well, but the opportunity hasn't yet present itself.

do you feel you have gained some perspective post psychosis? i almost feel i have more tools to cope with traumatic experiences.

i guess it comes down to if you feel you are ready.

 

[Scrofula]

See, while I, as a not-bipolar person find shrooms to be more "talk-to-God" inspiring than LSD, and more psychologically difficult, in a way most people would think of psychosis-risky, LSD is much more stimulating and lasts a whole lot longer (not stimulating like stims, but more inclined to promote outward-seeing focus).

I still think the sleep disruption of such a long-acting drug is what would put a bipolar person at risk. And I think Ayahuasca doesn't actually last all that long. The MAOI action might though--and it would be overall stimulating.

 

[Mysterie]

i also think sleep deprivation is a major trigger to mania and psychosis. but aya is about 6-8 hrs long, it is quite a tiring experience, even if you miss 1 night of sleep, it would take multiple nights of no sleep to become destabilised.

 

[Scrofula]

I think a single night, disrupted in a particular way, could be a trigger. You have to take into account the MAOI function. How long does that last? That's essentially hitting yourself with an old-school antidepressant, in a way that boosts levels of all your monoamines--hence very stimulating.

 

[Volsam]

I think a single night, disrupted in a particular way, could be a trigger. You have to take into account the MAOI function. How long does that last? That's essentially hitting yourself with an old-school antidepressant, in a way that boosts levels of all your monoamines--hence very stimulating.

^^^ The traditional MAOI in Aya is Banisteriopsis Caapi, main alkaloid is Harmaline, which is primarily MAO-A inhibitor, meaning it will inhibit mostly serotonin and serotonin-like molecules, it will also inhibit histamine and acetylcholine. And only at a very high dosages it will start inhibiting dopamine and nor-epinephrine, which is not the case with Ayahuasca.

Personally, I never feel stimulated on it, maybe mentally stimulated. It takes it's toll in terms of being tiring, but at the same time it may be very rejuvenating due to mental breakthroughs. The sleep will definitely be disturbed.

I prefer pharmahuasca with changa along the way in a natural settings (on top of the mountain, deep forest, near the ocean at night) and usually do it alone or with a close friend.

 

[Hodor]

Personally I believe the whole "spiritual" aspect of an Ayahuasca ceremony is going to make it that much more problematic for someone susceptible to grandiose delusions.
On a purely psychological level, I think taking a tab of LSD (and accepting that it is just a chemical mass-produced by a bunch of nerdy Grateful Dead fans) is still less risky than ritually drinking Ayahuasca, which is presented to you as the wisdom-teaching milk of mother Gaia that will put you in touch with the realm of the jaguar spirits.

LSD and DMT/Harmaline are just that - chemical substances with the ability to temporarily modify your thought processes so as to allow you to re-examine your priorities and draw new conclusions. They don't automatically instill some kind of divinely-approved wisdom.

 

[Scrofula]

Good to know on the MAOI action. But consider sleep disturbance with histamine and acetylcholine interference.

And when I mean "stimulating", yeah, I need a better word, not like stimulants, but still pro-neural-activity. "Lower the seizure threshold" kind of thing.


Anyway, I agree with Hodor. And also think that you can have the insightful experience with good old 4-hydroxy DMT, famous for that, probably safer for psychosis.

 

[iamthetalker]

[deleted]

I have to agree with dovliet and champ about the riskiness involved. In fact, unless you straight-up lie, any respectable aya retreat will reject your application at the mention of either your BPD or previous drug-induced psychoses. And you don't want to involve yourself in the non-respectable retreats. Nor would I recommend even a healthy individual without a strong grasp of the native language and local culture attempting to seek out an ethical native shaman to perform your ceremony. People don't realize what a large tourist business this has become throughout the Amazon. There are a lot of pretenders out there.

If you're still insistent on partaking in ayahuasca (or oral DMT in any form) regardless of the potential short- or long-term damage to your mental state, take Clocktower's advice and source the ingredients yourself for use in a home setting, preferably with a sitter in case another psychotic episode does occur. Plenty of information can be found here and at the DMT Nexus on preparations and precautions. The traditional shamanistic setting is interesting for its history and culture but far from necessary to have a valuable experience. The healing comes from the medicine and your own mind; the shaman is merely a facilitator.

 

[Scrofula]

it's fine to espouse your "theory" on the matter in the appropriate forum, it's irresponsible to reduce a person's diagnosed medical disorder to "totally linked to sleep,".

I apologize for suggesting the uncontroversial idea that sleep disturbance might trigger psychosis, in a forum on psychedelic drugs. It's simply too reductive a view of "triggering" for this forum, that loves to reduce drug action to simple receptor binding.

especially when that individual is seeking harm-reduction advice.

Yes, I suggested he stay on his meds and avoid taking psychoactive brews in foreign countries illegally, which contain MAOIs that could have serious consequences for his mental health. I see how some people might not think that's harm reduction.

I mean, I even take him at his word that he was diagnosed by medical professionals.

With that in mind, whether or not washingtonbound "actually" has BPD,

C'mon dude, don't dismiss me, accuse me of promoting harm, then straight-up suggest he's lying about his illness, or the many doctors he's seen are all wrong, and to go gobble down some home-brewed psychoactive concoction, with ingredients off the internet.

 

[iamthetalker]

Scrofula, I'm afraid I was unclear. I also misread your initial post as suggesting that BPD may not be a legitimate disorder and merely the consequence of poor sleep in sensitive individuals. I now see you were referring to poor sleep as a possible trigger for manic episodes. In that case, all of your following comments make more sense and seem a lot less incongruent with what I thought was your original premise . I apologize for not reading your posts more thoroughly.

I'm in no way suggesting he's lying about his illness; I was trying to get across that regardless of whether the diagnosis is true or that his symptoms are brought on by poor sleep cycles or something else entirely, based on his history it's not worth the risk. As for recommending washingtonbound "gobble down some home-brewed psychoactive concoction," I thought it was pretty clear that I do not, in fact, think that's a good idea but I do believe it's safer--more easily controlled variables, and a safety net if he has a trustworthy sitter--than going the traditional aya pilgrimage route in this circumstance.