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Treatment Using Suboxone for Kratom withdrawal

FluidLife

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May 31, 2017
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Question about Kratom and Suboxone

Hello Everyone –
A little about me. I am a 46 YO male who has never really had any significant issues w/ drugs until about 15 months ago when I discovered Kratom. Prior to Speciosa, I had been on therapeutic low-dose Adderall, and decided for a variety of reasons that it wasn’t healthy. Kratom presented an enticing alternative because it’s natural, and I found the stimulation as/more powerful than Adderall.
Fast forward to now, and I am addicted to Kratom, and have been a daily user for well over a year, w/ only very brief breaks. I’ve tried to taper or quit cold turkey, but no matter how I dice it, stopping it causes a mind-blowing fatigue, and an insomnia that exacerbates the exhaustion. Secondary symptom are intermittent restless legs and some moderate depression. My understanding is that withdrawals last anywhere from 3 days to 30 days, and then you’re back to normal. A slow Kratom taper is undesirable because it now makes me feel weird and anxious when I take it. So whether I do Kratom or not, I feel like shit, just in different ways.

If it were fall or winter, I would just quit CT and take the suffering. But I’m looking for a less painful alternative because I am a competitive mountain biker, and I have several pricey races I’ve pre-registered for (side note: Kratom is an amazing performance enhancer for athletics – it gave me legs of steel for like 3 hours). One is a charity race where others have donated $$, so it would be inexcusable to miss it and at least not give it a shot.

I talked to an addiction Dr. in my home town today, and she said she has treated several people for Kratom. Her recommendation is a roughly 2-week taper on Suboxone, adjusted for severity of addiction. I was instructed to taper as best I can leading up to the appointment, then abstain from Kratom for 24 hours (I’ll probably do longer because the real withdrawals start at ~ 48 hours for me). They’ll give me a dose of suboxone and observe my reaction. They’ll titrate up until they find a dose that makes me feel “normal”, and calculate dosage and taper schedule. They said the initial session will take about 4 hours all in. The thought of substituting one drug for another freaks me out, but the Dr. was very convincing that this would work based on past successes.

So now the questions:
  • What does suboxone feel like in therapeutic doses? Because my primary symptom is fatigue, I can’t handle anything that magnifies the exhaustion. A wee bit of stimulation would be welcome.
  • Does anybody experience insomnia from therapeutic doses of Suboxone? Right now, my sleep/wake cycle is in the gutter, and having it get worse because of a new drug would be a disaster. Luckily, I’ll have some Ambien on hand in case things get too crazy.
  • Any/all other thoughts/comments are welcome, including whether you think the whole plan is insane and I’m better off quitting CT and scrapping my race season. One thing I can tell you is I will not, under any circumstances, deviate from the taper schedule. I’d rather die than get addicted to another drug.
I’ll just say that compared to the suffering that some of you have endured, I know this is child’s play. I also recognize that I’m looking for a quick fix just so I can ride my dumb bike. All I can say in my defense is that I’ve developed a deeper compassion for those w/ more severe addiction/mental health issues, and it’s my full intention to volunteer and provide some sort of community support when I’m through all this.

On the other hand, for those of you unfamiliar w/ Kratom, this drug is no joke. I made an acquaintance on Reddit who said his withdrawals from Kratom were worse than those from OxyContin. So maybe this isn’t child’s play after all. I have no idea because I lack a point of refence with other drugs.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts/advice you might have. Cheers, and good health to all.
 
Hey FluidLife, welcome to Bluelight and Sober Living! And congrats on your decision; it sounds like you've made a strong commitment to getting off the kratom.

In terms of the overall wisdom of your plan, I can't say too much because I'm not that familiar with the details of kratom WD. If you trust your doctor, I'd go with her advice.

In terms of your questions about suboxone...

At typical therapeutic doses, most people simply find that suboxone makes them feel "normal." At first you may get a little narcotic buzz from it, but that usually subsides very quickly. I highly doubt that it would magnify any feelings of exhaustion, although as you're tapering the subs, some lethargy might sneak in.

Insomnia is a reported side effect for suboxone, though in my own experience (myself and people I've known), I've never come across it. Again, however, as you taper your suboxone dose, insomnia is more likely to present itself.

Please let us know if you end up following the plan you described. I'd be curious to hear how it goes.

Meanwhile, good luck. You got this!
<3
Sim
 
Hey fluid. I'm very interested in your topic as it's something I've been considering myself for my own kratom addiction and dependence. I kicked a serious oxy and alcohol addiction with kratom, but now I'm hooked on kratom, dosing three times a day every day. Keep in mind that I used suboxone for about a month while bridging the gap from oxy to kratom. I absolutely hated the suboxone though and bought into the horror stories... and I was really uncomfortable withdrawing from it. Kratom was tremendous for me in that regard, however in hindsight I wish I'd left all the opiods behind when I had the chance.

What is your kratom habit like? How many grams a day?
 
Fwiw, I have been holding on to approximately 1 mg of sub, toying with the idea of using it when I eventually decide de to quit kratom forever.
 
Fwiw, I have been holding on to approximately 1 mg of sub, toying with the idea of using it when I eventually decide de to quit kratom forever.

I didn't realize you could use suboxone for kratom.

Be careful as suboxone is bupe which I would imagine is stronger than kratom as far as opiate effect.

Are you planning to taper? My main concern is you take to bupe instead of tapering on kratom alone, but I am honestly not educated on kratom detox.
 
I don't think you should use suboxone to get off kratom. The reason being suboxone is more powerful and has a longer half life than kratom. Kratom withdrawal isn't fun but you can get through it with some comfort meds. Go to a walk in doctor explain the situation and ask for clonidine, robaxin, serioquel. Then find a benzo off the street if you can. With that combo you won't even know your in withdrawal
 
While generally I'd agree that buprenorphine isn't really a great idea to use to come off kratom, if the kratom habit is severe enough and a very low dose of buprenorphine is used (~1mg-2mg/day) for a short period of time (4-6 days), then it actually might not be such a bad idea.

That said, tramadol would be much more appropriate to use to detox from kratom. Or as cj said, the standard gabapentin, clonidine, diazepam and sleep med type regiment would do the job just as well.
 
if the kratom habit is severe enough and a very low dose of buprenorphine is used (~1mg-2mg/day) for a short period of time (4-6 days), then it actually might not be such a bad idea.

That said, tramadol would be much more appropriate to use to detox from kratom.

^^^ sounds pretty solid. Making low doses stretch (of an alternative substance) to beat the worst of w/d. The key really is only using for a short period of time. I would even say more like 3-5 days, in my opinion.
 
Sorry, this is a bit of a bump but it's still worth throwing my 2c.
Like the OP, I had 1mg of sub saved up for when I was kicking kratom. I hesitated taking it until I found myself reading this thread, at which point I took it.

Kratom withdrawals really aren't that bad but taking 1mg of bupe (imo) is a great way to finish kicking kratom. A couple days after taking the milligram of sub you might notice some watery eye for a few hours, but hey. Pharmocologically speaking I'd honestly figure that taking bupe would make the WDs more pronounced after it wore off, but it never seems to do that for me.
 
Suboxone is SO much stronger than kratom that it strikes me odd to use subs to come off of kratom (more like the other way around!)
However, I see no reason it can't work either way- but while kratom is pretty forgiving and hard to really over-do (let alone overdose), suboxone is actually pretty powerful in it's own right and should be treated with respect! It's also l o n g acting with a half-life of 36 hours (meaning that 36 hours later only HALF of it is metabolized!) so be super careful about taking more on top of what you've already taken as that shit can stack up on you.

I don't know what your kratom habit was/is like, but based on my kratom experience, I'd suggest a very small dosage of suboxone (like 1-2mgs max!), then wait like 3-4 hours before maybe adding another 1mg, assuming you're not feeling well.
(Suboxone is really good at making you feel well, but not much "fun"-much like kratom)
Avoid the temptation to take more hoping to catch any sort of buzz. (I know... I know...)

At times when my opiate usage was pretty low, say, snorting just 60mgs of oxycodone throughout a given day (that low) I found that even 2mgs of suboxone could actually fuck me up pretty bad, and not in a good way, rather in a sort of scary way- like a nod that feels like it's verging on a coma- Nothing like a pleasant heroin nod, but more like going from nearly normal to a near blackout, where I'd have to shake it off to keep from passing out!
Keep in mind that even 60mgs of oxy a day is still stronger than anything kratom can do, even if you're doing a LOT of kratom.
(I never really did pass out, but it's still alarming, even if it just almost happens)

It seems both kratom and suboxone have a sort of "ceiling effect", meaning that beyond a certain dosage they wont really get you any "higher" (but you should be aiming for feeling well, and not high) That is NOT to say that you should ever take large amounts of either!
I've found that when I've used LOTS of kratom trying to get more of an effect (in pretty strong tea form, like two HEAPING tablespoons per cup), I would hit that ceiling and I couldn't get any "higher". While kratom does a great job of making you feel well, at large doses you'll just get more constipated and increased respiratory depression, neither of which is fun!

(Please, anyone with differing opinions, please chime-in. This is just my opinion based on my experience)

Cheers!
 
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weird i was under the impression that kratom was non addictive compared to opiate and opioid addiction. I myself have quit a kratom habit if 4 years of continuous use more than 20 grams 3 times per day.

This one I wasn't sure of? but isn't 7-hydrixymitragynine 30 times stronger than morphine when Buprenorphine is only 10 tines stronger than morphine? If so we should be able to take Kratom while suboxone/subutex/zubsolv is still in our system?

I have 250g of red vein bali and an once if Super green vein malay ready for when i step off suboxone which i am currently iving because it dies not work well for me with any other ROA.

Has anyone here actually used Kratom while on Suboxone with nothing else in their system?

And for me the addiction to Kratom was similar to that of coffee WD it was more mental than physical.

My withdrawal from previous opiouds and opiates was horrible, for example: in irder worst to easiest WDs: Methadone, Suboxone, Heroin, oxycontin, Hydrocodone Jratom, ciggerets. For example i went cold turkey through kratom wds, but couldn't handle the methadone, heroin and suboxone withdrawals. Maybe it had something to di eith my tolerance and danage to my receptor sites and production mainly mu, kappa, Delta and the 3/6 ethers.
Im sure i dud damage to gaba with the use if benzodiazapines in those days.

But if anyone has any information and facts about any if my questions I'd appreciate the help.

I need to get offf this Suboxone, it us getting pretty bad. I am dosing 5-6 times a day to stay well. And yes im using micron filters and have a formula fir cotton and micron loss.

(10u/100u) x 8mg = 0.8mg (loss from cotton)
(20u/200u) x 7.2mg = 0.72 (loss from micron filter.)
6.48mg remaining in solution, adding water to reduce loss.

So
(50u/200u) x 6.48 = dose administered if the dose was 50u/ 50 units or 1/2 ml
Your dose would be 1.62mg of Buprenorphine
(50u/200u) x 6.48mg = 1.62mg

Any help appreciated.

 
Kratom mixed with full agonist opioids (oxycodone and hydrocodone) was not very pleasant. I also took buprenorphine shortly after kratom. There wasn't an issue with precipitated withdrawal per se, but it wasn't a pleasant experience and was of buprenorphine (could have saved it for when the kratom got out of my system).

Through my limited experience, it almost seems like kratom's alkaloids are mixed agonist/antagonist, similar to buprenorphine in a sense. Just a guess from how they work taking them.

Are you trying to find the right about of kratom to switch from buprenorphine to? Sorry, I'm a little confused.
 
weird i was under the impression that kratom was non addictive compared to opiate and opioid addiction. I myself have quit a kratom habit if 4 years of continuous use more than 20 grams 3 times per day.

This one I wasn't sure of? but isn't 7-hydrixymitragynine 30 times stronger than morphine when Buprenorphine is only 10 tines stronger than morphine? If so we should be able to take Kratom while suboxone/subutex/zubsolv is still in our system?

I have 250g of red vein bali and an once if Super green vein malay ready for when i step off suboxone which i am currently iving because it dies not work well for me with any other ROA.

Has anyone here actually used Kratom while on Suboxone with nothing else in their system?

But if anyone has any information and facts about any if my questions I'd appreciate the help.

I need to get offf this Suboxone, it us getting pretty bad. I am dosing 5-6 times a day to stay well. And yes im using micron filters and have a formula fir cotton and micron loss.

Any help appreciated.


I've posted my sub-kratom experience elsewhere on the site, but will do my best to answer your question, at least as far as my experience goes. I was trying to taper off Sub, and got down to 1/4 mg every other day before I got hit with really bad withdrawals. I'm in my mid-60's, with a whole host of health problems other than drugs, some of them involving chronic pain however. In fact, I'd been clean and sober for a number of years after many years of heroin addiction, methadone maintenance, addiction/dependence to various pain meds when I went back out on Oxys and Vicodin. Eventually I found a doctor who put me on maintenance with Suboxone. Started at 20 mg but tapered down to 4 quickly and stayed at that dose for about 5 years. Then decided to taper off. Got to the dose I just said, 1/4 mg every other day, and couldn't go lower. Rather, couldn't stand the never-ending withdrawal that came from trying to go lower.

I live in a small town where I know nobody to buy drugs from, and the medical community is all connected, so getting any other drugs was a non-starter. Then I heard about kratom and though that maybe I could use it to get off sub and then taper off it. It being a faster-acting drug would at least mean that I wouldn't be in withdrawals for months on end, which it was looking like with the Sub.

So I got some when I had run out of Sub way too early, as tends to happen when you're underdosed, and it worked pretty well. It also doesn't seem to cause precipitated withdrawal when I stop it and go back to Sub. Eventually I got my doctor to stop the taper, but I'm still somewhat underdosed and hesitant to ask for a significantly higher dose. So when I take my Sub, I'm usually OK on the first day but not so great on the second. On that day I usually take some kratom, a couple of capsules--I really don't know the dosage with these, but it makes me nauseous any way other than caps, so that's what I use. When I was completely out of Sub for a couple of weeks and was in withdrawals, 6 caps put me into a pretty good space. But now I use them to supplement my Sub, and I don't seem to have any problems. Other than the fact that unless I got my dose raised, I'll have to keep doing this and I know kratom's going to become illegal before long. But taking them together, or one on one day and the other on the next, seems to keep me out of withdrawals for now. At some point before too long, I'm going to have to either ask for an increase of Sub, or taper off the kratom until I'm back just on the Sub. I don't think the kratom's all that good for me--I have cirrhosis--and want to stop taking it sooner rather than later. But everything I've read says that you can't do what I'm doing. It's working for me, at least in terms of withdrawal. I'd love to hear if anybody else has similar experiences. Thanks and Happy New Year!
 
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