Dont want relationships

[CoastTwoCoast]

Foreigner, that's an excellent post!

Maybe I'm jaded because I know relationships don't last anyway so it's only a matter of time before it goes to shit.

 

[Xorkoth]

I'm a man and I've only ever been in relationships with men. I'm not gay. I don't relate to "gay". I don't like what "gay" is in the western world. I see things more like how the non-western countries do... without labels. The ideal relationship model according to the gay world is not suitable for me. It's part and parcel with the narcissistic, sociopathic relationship model that is now pitched in the modern world.

I too have become bitter. Most of my relationships are not lasting because people don't have enough self-awareness to do relationship practices beyond the lust phase. It's about what you can get without trying, and once you have to try you move on to the next desire. I believe this is universal, it's not just a man/man thing.

I am so, so tired of the so-called polyamorous culture I'm seeing. It's toxic. It rarely ever ends well. It dilutes people's energy across many people and there's no containment. I am not necessarily in favor of 100% monogamy forever, but I believe in loyalty, accountability, commitment and compromise. I have stopped sharing this view with people because every time I do, liberally minded people call me possessive, or start ranting about marriage is a sham. It seems like people are either too lazy or too self-preoccupied to truly negotiate relationships anymore. The word "monogamy" makes people's heads spin. It's in vogue to hate the traditional way of life; and although I don't think the traditional life was all hunky dory, I think there's some truth in it. We have just become too bourgeoisie to recognize it.

Humans have blown security out the window while telling themselves that it's part of what being free and individual means. I don't like going downtown anymore because the rampant individualism on display sickens me. I'm a liberally minded person in most cases and quite live and let live. What I am seeing is so selfish, so out of touch with reality, so "plugged in", that I am worried for the future of our civilization. This has led to a myriad of highly dysfunctional and sociopathic behaviors in our society. It's not like human psychology or our genome has suddenly changed in the last 60 years of consumer capitalism. We are still being driven by those same impulses, they are just now being channeled into artifice and delusional ideology.

I've given up on having normal relationships. The second I call someone boyfriend or partner, they run for the hills, even though all the ingredients are there. I don't know where people's heads are at anymore. Certainly not in their hearts. Like others in this thread, I have taken the struggle inward and worked on progressing myself. But I am finding, with time, that a life unshared just isn't the same. I don't need someone else to complete me. I don't need a "better half". I just don't want to be alone forever. I have felt joy, love and expansiveness through my relationships. My lament is that they never have any staying power. Previously it was due to my relationship patterns and choices of partners. Now I see it's very much a modern cultural problem.

Ever notice how everyone is complaining about how hard it is to date these days, yet everyone espouses the same divisive ideologies that are causing the mating game to be futile? Yeah... we are fucked up.

Great post Foreigner. I used to be in a very toxic relationship. Somehow I've managed to find one now that is unimaginably non-toxic. We don't even call each other girlfriend/boyfriend because of the way that is such a loaded thing in our society, I never "asked her out". We love each other very much, and tell each other that. We're really close and affectionate but we don't live together and we totally both do our own things. If something comes up with band or something I can cancel a plan on her and she never gets mad. We both just don't get mad at each other or butt heads or really have any conflict at all. It works so well, it's like a dream. We talk about how it's stupid to promise someone you'll be together forever because how would you know? We both can't see any reason why we'd ever break up, but if it comes to that, then it will and we'll address it and move on.

I just mention this to illustrate that there are some people who can work for you. Not everyone is shallow and egocentric and unable to deal with their own hangups without putting them on their romantic partner. Try not to be too cynical.

 

[socko]

Foreigner, I agree with most of your post. I prefer to be with one person and grow old with them. It takes hard work, but a happy marriage is worth the effort. I don't care for this string of monogamous relationships that everybody seems to be after.

In the US, the rate of marriage is the lowest in history. Nobody is getting married any more. Not only is marriage out, but not so many are having babies any more. Blame the economy, feminism, or the mess that the world's leaders have made of the world. I don't know why.... but it is leading to the end of the traditional nuclear family.

A lover recently said that it is best never to get into a relationship for the long term. People change or they just aren't what you thought they were when you met them. Don't get married. It's better to have a series of love affairs. I plan to get married but not to her.

 

[CoastTwoCoast]

^ I wouldn't agree with her that it's better to have a "series of love affairs". She's entitled to that opinion of course, but I can see how that would be a turnoff coming from someone you're sleeping with.

I only want monogamy and something long term if I put myself out there again. Just don't expect me to stay over your house all the damn time or go to every single family function. Jeez...

 

[Boku_]

In the US, the rate of marriage is the lowest in history. Nobody is getting married any more. Not only is marriage out, but not so many are having babies any more. Blame the economy, feminism, or the mess that the world's leaders have made of the world. I don't know why.... but it is leading to the end of the traditional nuclear family.

I believe that is the case with a lot of wealthy western countries. i'm no expert but i have heard one of the main reason German and Scandinavian political leaders are so keen for high levels of immigration is that the locals are not starting families at a fast enough rate and there is a chance the economies will struggle with a low birth rate and ageing population.

I know in Australia when i go to a shopping centre or supermarket all the aussie mothers shopping will have one or two kids but the new African/Indian/Asian families will have 3 or more children with them.

But in Australia you are damned if you do or if you don't. The price of property in Sydney or Melbourne means you need to have a partner with a dual income to afford to buy a house. It's almost impossible for a single person to get into the property market. Plenty rent but that's a whole other issue.

As for the original question i had all my chances for relationships when i was young and i blew them all when i experienced mental illness. 15 years on from that period of my life i now live a private life but i will say of the people i have as friends, acquiesces and work colleagues it's split 50/50 between successful long term relationships and living solo. For people i grew up with from my younger days maybe 30 percent are happily married with kids another 20 percent are in relationships and are too busy going on holidays of a life time every year to have had kids yet. While the rest i don't know my facebook feed isn't as busy as it was ten years ago.

If weight gain wasn't a side affect of anti-psychotic medication maybe i would try and get a partner but i have too many things working against me to meet someone. i am just a loser where legal brothels operate in my home town so when i can afford it i can get fake love. I know doesn't count but what am i going to do, i am only human after all.

 

[Asclepius]

I'm a man and I've only ever been in relationships with men. I'm not gay. I don't relate to "gay". I don't like what "gay" is in the western world. I see things more like how the non-western countries do... without labels. The ideal relationship model according to the gay world is not suitable for me. It's part and parcel with the narcissistic, sociopathic relationship model that is now pitched in the modern world.

I too have become bitter. Most of my relationships are not lasting because people don't have enough self-awareness to do relationship practices beyond the lust phase. It's about what you can get without trying, and once you have to try you move on to the next desire. I believe this is universal, it's not just a man/man thing.

Absolutley agree.

I am so, so tired of the so-called polyamorous culture I'm seeing. It's toxic... I don't like going downtown anymore because the rampant individualism on display sickens me. I'm a liberally minded person in most cases and quite live and let live. What I am seeing is so selfish, so out of touch with reality, so "plugged in", that I am worried for the future of our civilization. This has led to a myriad of highly dysfunctional and sociopathic behaviors in our society. It's not like human psychology or our genome has suddenly changed in the last 60 years of consumer capitalism. We are still being driven by those same impulses, they are just now being channeled into artifice and delusional ideology.


Ever notice how everyone is complaining about how hard it is to date these days, yet everyone espouses the same divisive ideologies that are causing the mating game to be futile? Yeah... we are fucked up.

People are being led by socio-economic and market-led cultural forces toward this, no doubt. It's disturbing how we are so easily funneled to accommodate these economic and political systems that divide and conquer, market-driven trends covertly tilt the design of our sub-cultures -via insidious methods that serve these systems alone; ignoring any consideration to human welfare beyond that. Subcultures are just mirrors of the political system - fleshy billboards that mimic its values. Identity politics has afforded us nothing but the illusion that we are free to define ourselves; meanwhile people dont know who they are outside of the labels they are scrambling to define themselves by. The narcissistic obsession with this is lulling people into a false sense of self and preventing curiosity of anything outside the boundaries of these plastic sub-cultures. Sad indeed.

https://psmag.com/social-justice/americans-are-staying-as-far-away-from-each-other-as-possible

 

[-=SS=-]

People are being led by socio-economic and market-led cultural forces toward this, no doubt.

Whilst that is clearly a factor, for example women now competing for jobs against men and a household mortgage now generally needing 2 (decent) salaries to be viable, it doesn't paint the whole picture as to why our social fabric is unravelling and subsequently the dating world being affected.

The 'liberated' thinking of the 60's, especially women's liberation thinking, decimated the value of a good mother running a good household and being their for the children. It was deemed too restrictive, too puritanical. What they failed to realize, in their young self absorbed drug riddled 'thinking', was that value is the bedrock of our society.. a good family breeds civility. A poor family breeds violence, inwardly with mental illness and outwardly in physical violence.

What we see today is the direct result of now boomer aged people thinking they knew better than unspoken but firmly established social and societal values. They've ruined and failed their own children.

Until family and marriage is properly valued and understood in terms of its importance things will only get worse.

 

[Asclepius]

The 'liberated' thinking of the 60's, especially women's liberation thinking, decimated the value of a good mother running a good household and being their for the children.

hehe Can't tell if that argument is bait or actually just lacks any nuance or factual truth, due to your own bias but I'll leave this link here.

https://wellcomehistory.wordpress.com/2013/02/25/how-to-be-a-domestic-goddess/

 

[Xorkoth]

To SS: I have a friend who is a stay at home dad, and his wife makes the money. it worked that way because she was able to get a much better job than him. They're very happy, he loves being a full-time dad. Is that wrong somehow? I can totally concur it's not a good thing that there are so many dual income households and subsequently parents who can't spend enough time with their kids. But to put that blame on women's liberation in the 60s is, I think, incorrect. Women first began working out of necessity during World War 2. After that it was a thing.

The real problem is the need, except when one person is able to land a very good job, to have both parents working, simply to stay above poverty. The reasons for this being the case now and not in the past are many. So in most cases, the cause of, as you put it, the breakdown of the traditional family are economic, not feminism. Plenty of men or women would be glad t stay home as a full-time parent, actively want to, but are unable to in order to be able to provide financially for their kids.

I also know plenty of dual-working households where the family is happy and the kids are well-adjusted and good people now that they're adults. I think it can work out fine, provided the parents engage in parenting actively when they can. Unfortunately plenty of parents kinda suck... this is also true when one of the parents stays home full-time.

 

[-=SS=-]

hehe Can't tell if that argument is bait or actually just lacks any nuance or factual truth, due to your own bias but I'll leave this link here.

https://wellcomehistory.wordpress.com/2013/02/25/how-to-be-a-domestic-goddess/

What exactly is your point, in regards to that article? Yeah some women were unhappy, but when has that never been an issue? Not sure if you're insinuating through that article that the nuclear family arrangement was responsible for the mental health issues, but if it was your point you are mistaken.

Never said the arrangement was perfect for everyone. It wasn't. But in terms of organizing our society and societal values it was probably the best model we have devised yet. Just because X percent couldn't make it work due to their own personal baggage and emotional issues doesn't mean it wasn't good for Y percent who were healthy individuals. I have not seen any solid evidence to suggest abandoning the arrangement has been good for society, in fact quite the opposite.

Xorkoth: Women were working yes, but no where near to the capacity that we've seen post-60's and up to today, and they were typically working smaller jobs. Of course you'd still have a few women doing the career thing or pursuing some sort of professional capacity, but in the main the majority were opting for the typical family arrangement. It's all fine, if they want to that's great, but the family unit has to be the foundation and celebrated as such for a healthy society. The example of your friend, if they make it work that's great, though I would suggest that from birth to early years the mother should be there.. it's something a male can never ever match in terms of nurturing capacity, and it's what women have been designed for.. that's just how it is and I'm certain science would validate that claim if it hasn't already.

The breakdown of the traditional family unit being economic does have its roots in feminism though, it has inspired and convinced young women they can have it all, successful career and family, so we see lot's of women entering the workforce and competing against the men in professional positions and industries that used to be more male dominated. That has the direct effect of usurping money away from men who could have filled the position and provided for a family.

It's not some perfect arrangement that guarantees the production of successful and content individuals, but it sure as hell produced a damn sight more than the current arrangement we've embraced.

 

[spacejunk]

relationships are changing all the time. the idea of people marrying for love is a relatively recent idea, historically speaking.
the ideal of the "traditional relationship" seems to rely on the premise that the sort of marriages people had prior to the 1960s or 70s are the way it always was before then, which i don't think was the case at all.
family and relationship structures are constantly being reshaped by cultural, social and environmental factors. "child brides" have been normal at some points in time, and in some places they still are. the same goes for arranged marriages.
tradition is only what we make it - and all family relationship structures are a construct of one type or another.

i like the way relationships are evolving in the sense that people can choose and negotiate between one another how they want to live, and what sort of relationship roles they want to fulfill with a partner of their choice.
i think that's cool.
i mean, if you want to have a "traditional" family with stereotypical gender roles and domestic divisions of labour, you're free to do that.
on the other hand, if you want to have any other kind of relationship - you can do that too, without jeopardising your social standing, employment prospects or whatever else.

i've been in a relationship for 6 years. it's currently a long-distance relationship, but we talk every day and are still really close. we have lived together, and plan to do so again - but our circumstances are complicated and it's the price we pay for staying together whilst being a long way away from one another geographically.

my parents got married in 1970, and in Australia at that time (at least in their family and social circles) they were expected to be married before living together, and back then having a child out of wedlock was highly stigmatised.

i like that i've not been pressured by society to marry my longterm partner. i don't see it as important to have the state sanction my relationship by signing a contract.
maybe if we were going to buy a house together and start a family - but that is increasingly difficult for people of my generation, which is leading both men and women to have more autonomy.
by the time my parents were my age, the vast majority of their friends and people in their social group were married (and possibly divorced).
i, on the other hand, only have a handful of friends that are married - and not many that are divorced.
i've had a couple of long-ish term relationships, and i'm really relieved i didn't marry any of those people. if i was 35 or 40 years older, i would probably have been forced by tradition and social pressure to marry by now, which i'm really grateful hasn't happened.

i'm perhaps different to many in this thread, in that i am in a relationship and happy - but for all the faults and dysfunctions of modern relationships, i'm sure as hell glad to be exploring these existential questions without society shaming and forcing me into marrying someone that i might at one point have loved, or thought i loved.

the beauty of it is that nobody is stopping you from doing the whole marriage, man/woman, mum/dad 2.3 kids thing if you want to, but nobody's forcing you. i'm thankful for that.

i think relationships are worth pursuing if you meet someone that you enjoy being with for days, months and years at a time.
relationships need work, though, and i think some people get let down by their own unrealistic expectations of love being some kind of fairytale. sex isn't interesting to me any more, as a conquest thing - and i've never been interested in counting notches on my bedpost or anything like that.
but love and sex are two different things. they can overlap in beautiful and exciting ways, but they can exist independently of one another as well.
i think as i've matured i've recognised more and more of the intricacies of love, relationships and sex - and collectively, as a society we are developing new ideas and understandings all the time too.

personally, i can't really relate to some of the ways people date, hook up and conduct their intimate relationships, but i'm totally cool with that. i don't feel like i'm missing out on anything, and i'm not bothered by what my peers or friends do, whether they sleep around, have open relationships, stay celibate or get married and have kids.
my parents would probably like it if i was married, but fortunately they don't have any say in the matter. if anything, i think they are envious of the choices people in my generation have that they didn't have.

 

[Xorkoth]

Good post. My girlfriend and I are at the point where we feel like we'll never want to break up because it works so well and we make each other happy. But neither of us wants to ever get married, because like spacejunk said, we don't see the point in having the government get involved in our relationship. The important thing is that we love each other. If we have kids ever, it won't make a difference whether we're married or not, we'll still live together and raise them together. Children need love and support, not a legally binding contract.

Of course we don't plan to have kids. And in that vein, we've both discussed how if we do get to the point where we are no longer happy with each other, we'll break up. No sense in promising forever when you can't know how you'll feel in the future. In many cases (such as my aunt and uncle), staying together for the kids has actually been a bad thing, those kids have had to deal with their parents openly hating each other and both of them being miserable. Not to mention, they're miserable because they don't want to break a promise they made, a promise which was societally mandated.

Along that line, my ex (who was emotionally abusive and controlling and absolutely terrible for me) and I got married simply due to family pressures. Both of our families insisted we get married because we were "living in sin" and it had been a number of years since we got together. Both of us were like, I guess we should do this, and we did. When we broke up years later after much horror on my part, my parents told me they never thought she was good for me, but they didn't want to get involved in my relationship and tell me that and they thought it was inappropriate that we weren't married. I was like.... wut? That makes no sense. You got involved in my relationship when you basically coerced us into getting married! It was nonsense.

Not saying marriage is bad, I think it's a sweet thing, and I can see the benefit for some due to the legal rights each person has, in the case that someone tries to pull some shit. But in my case, I know that my girl wouldn't try to do some crazy shit if we broke up, even if we had kids, because I know her and she's like me, and I wouldn't do that either. I've been married, don't care to do it again, it was a bad experience.

 

[zephyr]

The point of hetting married isnt about love in the end.

Its about what happens after you die esp without a current recognised will.

If not married and you dont want the govt to decide where your shit goes, dont take for granted your loved one will get your guitar or cat ot billions.

Put it in writing legally somehow.

Being single is great too

So same deal.

if you die you need a will.


Srry im very shotfaced and very fucking jaded. People are absolute cunts and who needs em i just need a donut

 

[-=SS=-]

Srry im very shotfaced and very fucking jaded. People are absolute cunts and who needs em i just need a donut

After such a painfully long ass day at work that sentence cheer me right up. If I had a donut I'd post it to you.

 

[Asclepius]

What exactly is your point, in regards to that article? Yeah some women were unhappy, but when has that never been an issue? Not sure if you're insinuating through that article that the nuclear family arrangement was responsible for the mental health issues, but if it was your point you are mistaken.

My point was that your previous argument makes no sense. You alluded to the assumption that the 'drug addled' generation of the 60's was responsible for ruining the family structure of previous generations (by 'family' you totally omit the role of fathers in your argument btw), yet in previous generations (like those referenced in the longitudinal studies carried out in the article) those seemingly 'good mothers' were drug-addled also. It appears that you are fetishising some type of ridiculous ideal, based on the shallow artifice of the chintzy socio-political propoganda of the past and confusing this ideology with the actual social realities of those times.

But in terms of organizing our society and societal values it was probably the best model we have devised yet.

Really... why you have drawn this conclusion and what evidence there is to support this hypothesis?

Just because X percent couldn't make it work due to their own personal baggage and emotional issues doesn't mean it wasn't good for Y percent who were healthy individuals. I have not seen any solid evidence to suggest abandoning the arrangement has been good for society, in fact quite the opposite.

What evidence are you talking about?? This is your own opinion, this doesn not equate to evidence.
Using 'X' and 'Y' in your argument doesnt make it any more logical. The sweeping general assumptions you are drawing make no sense.

i mean, if you want to have a "traditional" family with stereotypical gender roles and domestic divisions of labour, you're free to do that.
on the other hand, if you want to have any other kind of relationship - you can do that too, without jeopardising your social standing, employment prospects or whatever else.

Social perceptions and legislation has changed and this is definitely constructive, in this sense, for sure imho.

 

[CFC]

I'm a man and I've only ever been in relationships with men. I'm not gay. I don't relate to "gay". I don't like what "gay" is in the western world. I see things more like how the non-western countries do... without labels. The ideal relationship model according to the gay world is not suitable for me. It's part and parcel with the narcissistic, sociopathic relationship model that is now pitched in the modern world.

I too have become bitter. Most of my relationships are not lasting because people don't have enough self-awareness to do relationship practices beyond the lust phase. It's about what you can get without trying, and once you have to try you move on to the next desire. I believe this is universal, it's not just a man/man thing.

I am so, so tired of the so-called polyamorous culture I'm seeing. It's toxic. It rarely ever ends well. It dilutes people's energy across many people and there's no containment. I am not necessarily in favor of 100% monogamy forever, but I believe in loyalty, accountability, commitment and compromise. I have stopped sharing this view with people because every time I do, liberally minded people call me possessive, or start ranting about marriage is a sham. It seems like people are either too lazy or too self-preoccupied to truly negotiate relationships anymore. The word "monogamy" makes people's heads spin. It's in vogue to hate the traditional way of life; and although I don't think the traditional life was all hunky dory, I think there's some truth in it. We have just become too bourgeoisie to recognize it.

Humans have blown security out the window while telling themselves that it's part of what being free and individual means. I don't like going downtown anymore because the rampant individualism on display sickens me. I'm a liberally minded person in most cases and quite live and let live. What I am seeing is so selfish, so out of touch with reality, so "plugged in", that I am worried for the future of our civilization. This has led to a myriad of highly dysfunctional and sociopathic behaviors in our society. It's not like human psychology or our genome has suddenly changed in the last 60 years of consumer capitalism. We are still being driven by those same impulses, they are just now being channeled into artifice and delusional ideology.

I've given up on having normal relationships. The second I call someone boyfriend or partner, they run for the hills, even though all the ingredients are there. I don't know where people's heads are at anymore. Certainly not in their hearts. Like others in this thread, I have taken the struggle inward and worked on progressing myself. But I am finding, with time, that a life unshared just isn't the same. I don't need someone else to complete me. I don't need a "better half". I just don't want to be alone forever. I have felt joy, love and expansiveness through my relationships. My lament is that they never have any staying power. Previously it was due to my relationship patterns and choices of partners. Now I see it's very much a modern cultural problem.

Ever notice how everyone is complaining about how hard it is to date these days, yet everyone espouses the same divisive ideologies that are causing the mating game to be futile? Yeah... we are fucked up.

Great observations, great post!