Are high doses of phenibut neurotoxic?

[phenibut10]

I use to be addicted to phenibut, I'd take about 32 grams a day, 4 times a week for 8-9 months. 5 months 13 days ago I decided to quit my phenibut habit cold turkey because I was tired of relying on phenibut to make it through the day, plus I was totally careless on it. After quitting cold turkey over 5 months ago I suffered an acute withdrawal which was horrible for 6 days but after the acute withdrawal was over I woke up on the 7th day and had no emotions/ anhedonia. Its like a switch in my head for emotions went off, I can't feel love,anger,sadness,anxiety,depression, empathy, or interested in anything at all. Looking at my old favorite movies feel like looking at a blank piece of paper, they feel and mean nothing anymore. Will I get my emotions back someday? I've been living this way for over 5 months now, Im starting to forget who my old self was. Also, is it possible for a drug like phenibut to cause protracted withdrawals.

 

[doxylamine]

I personally can't give you any solid answers there and I'm not sure that there is really much literature out there regarding Phenibut withdrawal, much less post-acute withdrawal syndrome. It is definitely possible with benzodiazepines. I imagine with that kind of dose/frequency/length of use that structural changes may indeed have occurred within your brain. Reversible? I do hope so for your sake. I'd also be concerned about possible damage done to your liver and kidneys and would highly recommend talking to a doctor and getting some blood work done. All the best.

 

[Solipsis]

Sorry to hear that, but agreed there is very little precedence for this afaik... but it does sound like PAWS and this partially be the result of cold turkeying it rather than tapering. For benzos they can last quite a while (I've been there and I even tapered from not too high but am sensitive I guess), so yeah I'd really stay hopeful that it will get better...

It must be debilitating, I find some things in life difficult already with reduced emotional response. Pregabalin which is also a VDCC 'blocker' like phenibut does produce depressed anhedonia for me upon discontinuation which can be susprisingly sneaky in how it seems like baseline...

 

[themoreyouknow]

people suffering from autism or aspergers can also usually feel very little or no emotions at all. However CBT often proves to be successful as it helps to understand and interpret emotions. So maybe you should go see a psychiatrist and start a CBT, since even if you do not regain emotions you could at least lern how to handle your problem.
I really wish you will recover from this state though.
Have you tried psychedelics since you have stopped feeling emotions? For me those feel almost entirely emotional so I wonder what you feel. Do you only experience visuals or does nothing happen at all?

 

[Solipsis]

That's for a big part about being able to recognize emotions and handling when you do have them, to some extent also while I belong in that category and said before that I had reduced emotional response in some ways, it is also a bit of a misconception that people with autism experience little or no emotions. That is partially about what is considered a normal and appropriate emotional response, but people with autism can instead be especially sensitive in some ways which often triggers all kinds of defense ad coping mechanisms.
I think it might be a *little* similar to the conception that people with ADHD have very little attention. Effectively that is what it is like sometimes but the correct underlying problem is a lack of being able to direct attention. For some part attention can have severely reduced use if it cannot be properly directed and maintained but it still is an important distinction and for example hyperfocus needs a place in the model.

CBT helps a lot with curbing exaggerated responses and getting insight into what responses are appropriate / useful / sustainable. I imagine it is harder to use with something like anhedonia or lack of emotional sensitivity which gives you much less to work with and probably needs more acceptance for the time being.
Maybe it could be worth looking into ways of managing MDMA hangover weeks, I tend to feel very empty inside during the week after and there are ideas about the badness or depression-like status of that hangover possibly being dependent on expectations. Maybe some of that wisdom may apply to you.

 

[phenibut10]

After chatting with 2 other people online who went through the same thing after getting off high doses of phenibut cold turkey I'm starting to think its paws, I really hope it's not permanent brain damage. One person who quit phenibut cold turkey said it took 6-8 months to feel emotions again and another person said it took 2.5 years , I guess for some people phenibut can cause protracted withdrawals similar to benzos if you get off high doses cold turkey. The only thing I hate about anhedonia is you can't tell if you are recovering/healing or not because with anhedonia your in a constant state of numbness, also this cog fog is really annoying it's like my mind is totally blank 24/7. Also, I have tried lsd since getting off phenibut, I tried it about 2 months after I went cold turkey from phenibut. During the lsd experience, I got slight visuals while people around me tripped hard on the same stuff and I did not feel any emotions. Thanks everyone for your advice I may look into CBT soon if things dont seem to get better. I'm going to see how things are after the 6 month mark before I decide to get professional help.

 

[phenibut10]

Solipsis, just curious... how long did it take for the anhedonic depression to go away after you discontinued Pregabalin?

 

[Solipsis]

With benzo PAWS flumazenil is supposed to help partially. Possible effects of benzo PAWS can be uncoupling of receptors and conformational changes which flumazenil can purportedly reset. There isn't such a thing for phenibut / gabapentinoids.
Another scary possibility may be epigenetic factors: certain triggers may cause you to get changed genetic expression. That would be really really hard to fix and may not heal.

Can you call any of this brain damage? Maybe in a subtle way but not really?

Who knows whether GABAb or calcium channels are the culprit here, let alone what happened to produce the PAWS and what that says about how long you should expect to be like this. Sorry friend, try to stay hopeful though, don't assume the worst. Seems fair to check where you're at after the 6 month mark and seeking treatment if necessary..

 

[phenibut10]

That's all really scary to hear, if this is life for me then its really not worth living. Thanks for your advice and everything, I'll try to stay hopeful as long as I can.

 

[jaiho]

My theory is that, similar to SSRIs, some people seem to have an easily upset brain chemistry. So once they try say, strong anti biotics, or roaccutane, or an SSRI.. or high dose phenibut, the brain shifts to a state that it cannot return to before the drug was introduced.
This woman explains Anhedonia well, it might be an option to train yourself to feel again.
http://www.anhedoniasupport.com/
She uses positive affect training i believe.

The other option is broad range anti depressants to try and bring your reward circuitry back to normal (SSRIs + Augments, MAOIs)

 

[Solipsis]

I didn't mean to upset you, I was maybe a bit inconsiderately listing some things that can be involved with PAWS, and things like flumazenil therapy are interesting but also freaky and perhaps irrelevant... please focus on the fact that PAWS is often chronic and a bitch but people do get over it, and also that you have much to gain from therapies... sucks to go through the process but once you figure out things to either ease your struggle while you recover or compensate for it or find something to relieve it or speed up the recovery process you can learn to manage. All the best

 

[phenibut10]

Your fine you didn't upset me, I just read what you wrote wrong....sorry about that. And thanks for your help and words of encouragement. At the moment i may look into ketamine but I look forward to getting over this paws someday. Thanks for your reply.

 

[Solipsis]

np
If you proceed, don't use recreational dosages of ketamine intrigued by therapeutic effects by the way - that would be self-delusion... take therapeutic dosages (this requires discipline and something like a nosespray bottle for non-oral microdoses).