Disembodied Chaos

[psychidecorator]

I haven't posted in a while as I've been livin life, but finally broke through on dmt two days ago. I would like to know if anyone has had a similar experience to this and how it went down for you, dose, setting etc. This being my first true breakthrough I was absolutely unprepared for what happened. I know the power of DMT and have tried it at lower doses generally not making it far due to ROA. This time I had a vape pipe and was somewhat ready to engage fully.

I was trying to help dose my friend sitting next to me, he pulled some of the vapor into his lungs and called it good so I decided to casually get a little higher too and took a toke, well, the glass on the vape pipe was hot enough to continue to vaporize the newly added 30mg of dmt as well as the dmt oxide dark residue and I was given a massive hit that immediately destroyed me. There was no time to understand. I was immediately dissolved and torn apart into raw disembodied chaos of experience. There was no I to experience, simply just the experience itself that was happening. Vague memories of being literally splattered into multiple visual dimensions at the same time are all I can truly recall now. Visually, things were patterned into machine like waves but were incongruent with other visuals of walls of clear and bright light, the machine like visuals were opaque in a clay like manner and moved back and forth chaotically simultaneously becoming a new visual phenomena and then regressing into the old one, green was the predominant color. This went on for what felt like all of time, my soul was no longer human, it was only capable of experiencing raw chaos through every sense.

It was like being an abstract piece of artwork in the most intense alien possible way, as if being a painting can be anything normal. It was profoundly jarring and felt like death but in a very unpleasant way. If that was death, death is not exactly enjoyable. I am willing to believe that it could have been my attempting to end the experience that made it negative but after the first few seconds I wasn't even around to end anything. I eventually started to hear my friend saying let go and I understood what he said for one second, finally understanding I was a person on earth and then I was immediately back in alien chaos no longer a person, no understanding of language. A presence was felt and it was not friendly, the only words I can use are chaos and destruction of being and alien in a hyperreal way. Beyond imagination.

Because of this experience I now believe that these places are real in some way, whether or not they are corporeal they may actually be in a different dimension of experience absolutely unlike this reality. All of my previous drugs experience was no match, ketamine seems like the gentlest drug of all time, 600ug of lsd seems like a walk in the park and 5 grams of mushrooms seems like a friendly visit to the edge of the ego death zoo. Nothing seems to compare to dmt.

I came out of this disembodied chaos of color feeling layers of personality being replaced slowly and hearing Fiona Apple's version of Across the Universe playing and my friends singing to it. "Nothing's gonna change my world, nothing's gonna change my world" I was being reborn and needed help because it was profoundly difficult to understand the process but I did know the words of the song, I knew english, I knew my friends but felt like a baby version of myself. I felt the urge to dance with my hands, the only thing I could coordinate, using the dancing o express and dispel the energy that was still gripping me. My friend sat down and held me like an infant as I was reborn into reality and restored, softly saying "Thank You so much, this is what I need"

All in 15 minutes. The chaos blackout was only a five minute ordeal for them but a lifetime of experience for me and it took me another ten minutes to regain myself completely. I had the feeling that I was very wet, clammy and covered in slime, my beard felt like thick grass, but I was no longer an alien, I was being restored to my small human life and it felt good, but slightly tainted by the onslaught of information and visual fuckery that I was just in.

I suppose what my question is, is has anyone experienced similar chaos like this? It was absolutely not like some things people have written, often describing some form of narrative of journey. I had no narrative or journey, just simple unadulterated ego death, actual death, soul destroying chaos. Harrowing stuff. I will do it again but at a lower dose. I think I traveled beyond hyperspace or perhaps I didn't travel far enough.

Peace

 

[Solipsis]

DMT N-oxide is not dark but yellow and forms mostly upon degradation rather than pyrolysis in a pipe i think...

During most of my DMT experiences, for the part that was not ultimately immersive I felt quite like my regular self in a lot of ways... it just seemed like my world had gone mad, infantile and funfair-like.

I don't believe in human souls to begin with, I think if we do have such an essence of being it is rather the kind of state rocks or trees are in. Being human is IMO for the most part not all that spiritual in mystical ways but more psychological, with some or other dance between ration and emotion happening. Pure being is relatively very rare and not regarded as individual as far as I'm concerned. Everything that 'is' exists on the level where we measure energies and that is subject to the preservation of energy. I think it is necessarily true that our material energy is transmuted and taken up into the circle of life when we die, unless mummified, but this would be on such a different level than individualism that it would be a mistake IMO to confuse the two.
I find mystical spiritual states to be highly abstract and they can be hard to integrate, even much more compared to your trip.

Your experience actually sounds much more Salvia-like. While that is not the drug you took, it may help you to find others who experienced similar things on Salvia as you did.

I have experienced chaos on DMT but it was primarily the time(s) when I still had a lot of things going through my mind when I started the trip, and those things were frantically jumbled together in a terrible and anxious predicament. If you do it again, be sure to 'center' yourself before actually taking the DMT by rituals and meditation. I don't really believe in the traditional side of rituals but my experience taught me that there can be immense value to rituals in general: they can be like they psychologically program you to focus on certain values in powerful ways.
And this is exactly what is important with DMT trips: just loose-flying thoughts or attention are likely to just collide and crash, and to transform grotesquely which is fun but if that effect is overwhelmingly strong it can be really menacing while hyperspace need not be necessarily. On the other hand if you are incredibly centered and meditatively concentrated in my experience the trip has less narrative content and is more of a visionary trance. That might be taking it too far... but that only happened after I meditated for like 30 minutes. Aim somewhere in the middle of that.

 

[Forever Jung]

It seems to me that the human condition is characterized by which sensory data our brains prioritize as necessary to process and interpret. Actively filtering out irrelevant sensory inputs seems to be an essential function of the animal brain. Psychedelic drugs seemingly allow humans to bypass that filter to different degrees, and process information we would normally ignore subconsciously. The onslaught of information you experienced lends itself to this hypothesis. It is my belief that these worlds/dimensions we see in the DMT experience physically exist all the time, it is just our brains are actively jamming these frequencies because evolutionarily, they were not conducive to survival. You probably won't be a good hunter/gatherer if you are continuously getting hyper-slapped under the dome by god-consciousness.

 

[psychidecorator]

Yes I believe both of what you have said. I don't believe in souls per se, I think that any reality we experience on earth in waking life or in differing modes of consciousness that we can call familiar, like drunkenness, being high, alpha, beta, theta etc - essentially modes minus serious psychedelia specifically, or meditation, intense dreaming - is a limited picture by necessity, as you say Mr. Jung. Like the filter that Huxley described.

And I now believe the age old mystical dualistic monism theory to make more sense in some ways but with the caveat that although many people talk about love and peace being the ultimate reality, I think that our ultimate reality is also characterized by things that consciousness itself may not find so pleasant, or at least beings that are self conscious. Darkness and pain and perhaps evil do exist as part of the whole, just as when Krishna reveals himself to Arjuna he takes the form of many positive things but also a world destroying devouring monster with innumerable mouths and teeth. But who's to say on this point.

I also think that I could re access this chaos trip if I dosed this high again. The more I think about it I think I dosed too high for it to be pleasant, but I would defer to you guys on whether DMT doses really matter past a certain point. I know Strassman said at some point it was simply irresponsible to IV past a certain dose. The first trip I gave to my friend was three light tokes from around 30mg of newly added perfectly vaporized dmt, he had visions of an old lady guiding him through a beautiful room of color and he felt only love for a solid 5 minute trip and a comedown of ten. I don't know if he broke through fully but he was immersed entirely, unable to pay attention to the outside world - he looked very happy. His ego remained intact.

Then I took my accidental death dose and had my experience of dying and being reborn through chaos and I think it happened because of how much DMT was still left in the pipe in its burnt goo form because it only took one full breath hit that I didn't even hold in to cause immediate destruction. My friend said he wanted to go deeper as well after my rebirth and so I added yet a little more to the pipe to make sure and he took a comparable toke as I did. He was floored instantly and had virtually the same experience of chaotic death, rebirth and an inability to comprehend any of the feelings and emotions that he became. I am trepidatious to dose that high again but I unfortunately don't know how high that dose was? Maybe I am just a bitch, but will be making it a habit to clean my pipe to map out proper doses systematically.

Thanks for your input, I will be making a more deliberate attempt to find a better experience through meditation and preparation, setting etc.
And if thats what a Salvia trip is like, I'll have to try that and see. In some ways this experience scared the shit out of me but also gave me a higher tolerance of fear and like I said 600ugs of acid was in hindsight a walk in the park.

Peace and thank you

 

[Solipsis]

Eh no I don't think there is reason to believe these other worlds physically exist. Brain scans show a lot of cross-chatter between faculties in the brain resulting in supposedly exotic forms of synaesthesia or triggered imagination. I think because we have brain regions for detecting beings and faces, patterns and many other special detection systems, this cross chatter results in a synthesis of all these things jumbled together as a vision of other worlds. That's what our minds do: to the best of their ability they orchestrate a stream of consciousness with the activity.
This filter you are talking about might relate to iirc the hypothalamus? Sort of a switchboard - the filter is not just as you might typically imagine it to select useful and meaningful information but also to limit cross-chatter only to when it is appropriate. Without that filtering it's really not that hard to see how you get this pandemonium. I guess the visual cortex gets all sort of signals generated semi-randomly by other places / reaches of the mind. Whole encyclopedia's of mental images you have stored...

The number one theory for the hallucinations should be the drug pushing buttons like showing patterns where there are none, a good example that indicates that the things seen are mostly "false alarms" and artifacts that demonstrate how our minds work more than anything else outside of us. It seems silly to think that the patterns are coming from a world filled with geometric patterns, no offense.
Of course everyone is entitled to their beliefs but I see absolutely no basis for the information coming from actual other worlds or dimensions, just localized mental dimensions but not physical. It may seem like an appealing idea, but it that doesn't seem like a fair reason to think it is likely to be true. The mind is actually what is so limitless instead of any multiverse stuff.
If the mind could get it's info from parallel dimensions etc it is quite curious that science can't properly communicate with them and it really begs the question whose eyes are seeing and whose mind is constructing these visions and sending them to you via "frequencies".

I really don't know about the spiritual nature of the world but like the skeptical Zen approach a lot. The most powerful mystical experience of non-duality felt to me like a dream was dreaming itself but this is probably still just a highly dissociated perspective confined to my own mind. So the ultimate nature to me would be 'pure being'. The most abstract and non-descript aspect of everything. Pure data (like brahman) ready to be differentiated from various perspectives, all of which only can see part of the picture. Just purely looking at the entire picture is unintegrable, which should be why Zen also has a defeatist attitude: you should abandon all hope to reach Zen, the closest you get is by endless deconstruction.

 

[Forever Jung]

^ Yes you raise some very good points! One thing psychedelic drugs have shown me is the universe appears self similar as we view it on different scales, or "fractal dimensions." Similar structures are observed in nature when observed on the macro, micro, and everyday scales (for example the golden spiral/ratio, and how the large scale structure of the universe resembles neurons just to name a few.) When I take a whopper of 5-MeO-DMT or even Ketamine, I lose all contact with the ordinary world, yet my energy exists in some sort of dimensional space...of course I am experiencing my subconscious mind, but who's to say whole universes don't exist in compact small dimensions within our own collective subconscious...


I really wish we were in a room chatting with each other, not enough physical people in my life to chat about this stuff with

One Love
FJ

 

[psychidecorator]

I've been a skeptic all of my life but did a fair amount of searching for spiritual answers when I was young, reading everything about Eastern religions, reading the bible, psychedelics etc. My current conclusion is that I don't know anything for sure. I do enjoy your explanation Solipsis and your additions FJ, especially the Lily like concept that the mind is limitless and our beliefs can be transcended, that in some sense we aren't fully transcending reality when we have intense satori like experiences, or intense visionary ones, we are simply transcending the ghosts that exist in the mind. Ghosts that are due to brain hardware and complicated muddy sensory software - maybe we need the ever imminent cyborg update so we can create our own fluffy hyperspace matrix of pleasure our own universe.

I am just having difficulty coping with how unfamiliar that territory was and with the various experiences described about DMT etc. Its all very weird and confusing. It was not a transcendent experience by any means and I think that as you say it's kind of unlikely drugs of any kind would induce the ultimate reality in human consciousness, it could just be severe dissociation, but who's to say, it's certainly worth continuing to investigate.

It makes sense to me that consciousness (the subjective) and the physical world (objective) meet somewhere to create reality. They don't meet anywhere we could say exists because existence would be a function of this meeting place, but they do meet in some sense. If either of you ever read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance you can see where that got into my mind. Although that book isn't great in its entirety, it got me really thinking. It seems that Quality is obviously an analog to the dao, void, etc. which cannot be defined by deconstruction as you say because you would be trying to explain the whole banana with a limited description of the stem for example and perhaps misunderstanding it as the everything, there is obviously infinitely more to discover and more to be discovered using sensory equipment we don't have. Even assuming that our descriptive language of either math or words can actually explain any of this shit is too assumptive, but we are doing the best we can with what our minds and hands allow us to do.

It is defeatist to leave it undefined and that's the part that I both truly respect in wisdom but don't so much enjoy because I would like to understand it all as well.

And FJ - yes I can imagine a world of endless dimensionality and that really causes me some headache but I have no reason to think things aren't infinite, besides maybe simple physical conservation of mass but that doesn't guarantee limit necessarily. Infinity makes more sense than a limited universe or ultimatality and if the mind is similarly a microcosm of infinite dimensionality then we are truly fucked in trying to gain perspective about metaphysics, especially through drug experiences.

You guys have any thoughts on simulation theory or do you dismiss it as another version of creationism?

 

[Solipsis]

@ Universes within the mind: Don't confuse the map with the territory: we may think we have 'the world' in our heads but we have a highly encrypted and selective look of the world, it's our world. Very complex association structures, algorithms (.> skills, abilities to process) and episodic memory among other types... yes, but also necessarily an incredible number of inconsistencies which go away more and more for each particular narrowed perspective. Not a self-consistent and complete world as such. More like the highly warped simulation of one.

On the other hand, technically the number of universes may be truly uncountable. In quantum vacuum there are exotic ways for pairs of particles to be produced from nothing only to disappear again a nanoinstance later, a system or coherence from which no part can be separated, if you pull at one thread everything else is pulled along - a field of information (which are actually called a matrix haha)... the number of permutations of all those fluctuations would be either infinite or at least astronomical to the power of astronomical...

So I think those ideas like universes in the mind aren't necessarily as self-explanatory as they may sound?

I don't know anything for sure either.

Zen & the art is one of my favorite books of all time... yeah and I find the ideas important and revelatory. Quality in some ways or indeed taoist suchness are to some extent IMO comparable to a symbolic value like a property of that Higgs field I was talking about earlier. According to a relatively recent Dutch theory of physics there is evidence or a powerful theory at least that bit-like informations are indeed at the core of everything which goes beyond the 'energy' ideas before that.

I think the context of the Higgs field isn't that well known per se, which is one of the ways trying to further describe Quality or suchness often breaks down, although less so when we try to apply it morally or philosophically.

IMO simulation theory is much more neutral since there is no implied deification of the 'creator'. I think one strength is that it seems plausible, it doesn't ultimately explain anything because of the same questions about the nature and origin of the world the simulation creators live in just moving up a notch in recursion... then again just strictly talking about the origin of our world, then simulation theory of course doesn't necessarily claim it would explain more than just about ours. Some of the arguments do also apply to religious creationism some of which sort of pretend to account for those "mysterious ways" (the pretty questionable nature of some things), but all things considered I think coming from most religions it's secretly all really human-centered (look at everything that gets anthromorphized alone)

Also it's a pretty significant difference IMO whether you have a creator who you think cares about you in an empathetic way and/or has full control over everything that happens compared to a simulation creator to whom our feelings just may not be 'real' somehow nor understandable. We already have limited compassion for bugs usually and we're wired to even have that bit of compassion for explainable reasons. To the simulator creator the perspective may be very different, it could be incredible if the creator of a simulation could effectively contain a sort of of omniscience, at full time resolution to really get what it's like for us.

It's extremely hard to think about or discuss such higher levels above a simulation because we have just NO idea how comparable or imaginable it would be to things we think of or can think of.

Either way, I'm highly fascinated how a Salvia trip does it's thing like make you feel like suddenly you are the paint on the wall of a house in Mexico... from various perspectives (if they are based enough on plausibility). Apparently salvinorin binds particularly in a region deep within your brain (the kappa high claustrum), which serves as one of the most important regions to make you 'you' and give you central executive function. So I guess that makes it possible that your perspective can go from experiencing yourself to experiencing a percept, concept, memory or idea. And I wonder, probably multiple things at the same time without as much central governing and stitching together...

 

[psychidecorator]

Wow on that last point. What have your salvia trips been like? I'll have to try it but I am trepidatious nonetheless - the stories don't sound great. Any reason to compare DMT to salvia or are they totally dissimilar?

Also I suppose that the conclusion I am coming away with in our little discussion is that I should investigate much further but remain skeptical nonetheless no matter how powerful these feelings are. It is somehow morbidly attractive and interesting to imagine that these other dimensions exist in some sense, both dark or light, happy and disturbing. But I don't want to be stuck up the river without a spiritual paddle so to speak because I was indiscriminately shooting my consciousness into dark places.

I have a friend who is actually in Peru taking aya with legitimate shamanic teachers, forget their names. What he has told me is that these things are very real to him and to his teachers - these dimensions do exist. There are stories of people attempting to fight plant spirits to dominate them and being left dead in the limbs of the plants or engulfed in the roots. This sounds like bs to me mostly. He also told me that while there he witnessed someone get cursed and promptly grow a wart the next day. Again who knows.

What did fascinate me was that one of his aya journeys imparted to him the knowledge that it was very difficult for his soul to reach earth, the same is true for every human - being human is apparently very close to reaching satori, or moksha as described in the buddhist/hindu reincarnation cycle. Of course maybe this is just a highly anthropocentric way of thinking because we are humans and are wired to think we are so wonderful.

I wonder if aliens have a concept of enlightenment that differs from ours substantially, haha.

Do either of you believe in alien life?