About to start first cycle at 24

[WillM]

EDIT: Forgot to mention I've been training naturally for the better half of 10 years give or take, taken seriously probably last 4-6 years.

Hello BL,

Been considering doing a cycle for a few years now, finally found a reputable source which was my main excuse. Safety is my #1

Cycles looking like 250mgs test cyp per 4 days for 12 weeks, which from what I read is on the more potent side compared to most first cycles i've read on.

Questions:
Asking him on PCT he responded in saying it won't be needed until I decide to go off, are there any negative effects to PCT'ing between cycles close together?

Should I be wary of this source due to his thoughts on multiple cycles then PCT?

For a first cycle I've been reading conflicting thoughts, between really needing an AI intra-cycle to avoid sides, or even needing a PCT at all when on simply test.. if some herbal liver protection is enough?

Should I have nolva or clomid on hand for PCT regardless?

Bit of background that may matter, never was a drinker - liver is probably one of the least taxed organs in my body.

Apologies if a little ranty here, I have read a lot the past few weeks on the subject, really trying to optimize while being as safe as I can.

Appreciate the info to come, apologies if any of these are posted in stickies, I have read the study corner + first cycle posts + as much data as I have been able to consume on the subject thus far.

 

[CFC]

Hi WillM welcome to BL.

Is there any particular reason you've decided to go with a higher dose? You won't need that much to do very well on a first cycle as a beginner. 250mg/wk (split into two injections/wk) would be ample.

As for PCT drugs, most won't help much unless you're suffering from secondary hypogonadism, which is unlikely on a low-dose cycle. Instead you can taper off your cycle (lower the dose for the last 2 or so weeks) as described in the first cycle sticky. However you should certainly have a SERM like tamoxifen on hand in case you develop symptoms of gyno. And use taurine at 5g/day (and other decent antioxidants like NAC) to reduce harm to the testes on cycle.

For liver protection, you don't need anything special beyond a healthy balanced diet. Injectables tend to cause less (or no) liver injury compared to orals.

 

[WillM]

Hi WillM welcome to BL.

Is there any particular reason you've decided to go with a higher dose? You won't need that much to do very well on a first cycle as a beginner. 250mg/wk (split into two injections/wk) would be ample.

As for PCT drugs, most won't help much unless you're suffering from secondary hypogonadism, which is unlikely on a low-dose cycle. Instead you can taper off your cycle (lower the dose for the last 2 or so weeks) as described in the first cycle sticky. However you should certainly have a SERM like tamoxifen on hand in case you develop symptoms of gyno. And use taurine at 5g/day (and other decent antioxidants like NAC) to reduce harm to the testes on cycle.

For liver protection, you don't need anything special beyond a healthy balanced diet. Injectables tend to cause less (or no) liver injury compared to orals.

Is there any particular reason you've decided to go with a higher dose?
I was just following the advice of the source I have, realizing it was a bit on the high side of beginner cycles I'm glad to have that confirmed, will do on 250/mg/wk.

you should certainly have a SERM like tamoxifen on hand in case you develop symptoms of gyno
Should I have an AI along with a SERM? incase of any nasty sides popping up.

Is there really any meaningful difference between different AI's or SERMS?

Thanks again for the response, the internet is a deep hole.

 

[CFC]

Is there really any meaningful difference between different AI's or SERMS?

Yes mate. Oestrogen is converted in the body from testosterone by an enzyme called aromatase. Thus an aromatase inhibitor reduces the conversion of test into oestrogen by this specific mechanism.

Conversely a SERM doesn't reduce the conversion of oestrogen at all. What it does is block directly (but selectively) the oestrogen receptors in the body that respond to the converted oestrogen floating around in the serum.

So while both reduce the impact of oestrogen, they do it in totally different ways. Both compounds also have plus and minus points depending on what you're trying to achieve and the side-effects you're trying to avoid.

For instance, for gyno aversion, a SERM is usually more effective and has fewer health implications. OTOH an AI lowers the serum level of oestrogen, which can be helpful for a number of reasons but in terms of recovery, it may reduce the oxidative damage caused by excessive oestrogen levels.

On your low dose cycle, and with enough antioxidants, you probably don't need to worry about an AI. But if you do want to insure against even that level of risk, you could get away with a very conservative, low dose of an AI like exemestane or anastrozole.

 

[WillM]

Yes mate. Oestrogen is converted in the body from testosterone by an enzyme called aromatase. Thus an aromatase inhibitor reduces the conversion of test into oestrogen by this specific mechanism.

Conversely a SERM doesn't reduce the conversion of oestrogen at all. What it does is block directly (but selectively) the oestrogen receptors in the body that respond to the converted oestrogen floating around in the serum.

So while both reduce the impact of oestrogen, they do it in totally different ways. Both compounds also have plus and minus points depending on what you're trying to achieve and the side-effects you're trying to avoid.

For instance, for gyno aversion, a SERM is usually more effective and has fewer health implications. OTOH an AI lowers the serum level of oestrogen, which can be helpful for a number of reasons but in terms of recovery, it may reduce the oxidative damage caused by excessive oestrogen levels.

On your low dose cycle, and with enough antioxidants, you probably don't need to worry about an AI. But if you do want to insure against even that level of risk, you could get away with a very conservative, low dose of an AI like exemestane or anastrozole.

I misspoke, I meant to say difference between brands. But I appreciate the specificity of your answer all the same and shed some light on the subject I did not have fully before.

Having my t levels tested at around the 350 mark over the past few years, would that change the mg/week recommendation? Not to get greedy here, it's mostly a question based off reading anecdotal data.

 

[CFC]

Having my t levels tested at around the 350 mark over the past few years, would that change the mg/week recommendation? Not to get greedy here, it's mostly a question based off reading anecdotal data.

The effect of exogenous AAS on muscle protein synthesis (MPS) isn't absolute, it's relative. So since your test levels are on the low side to start with, a small dose will have a greater impact on MPS that somebody whose test was naturally on the high side.

To understand this and how homeostasis relates to using AAS, have a read of this article (don't worry about the title, the content should still make sense for your question).

 

[Serotonin101]

At 250/week ai should not be needed but good to keep on hand or serm. T-levels at 350? Can you talk to your Dr about testosterone replacement therapy? Those levels are incredibly low.

 

[Lotus123]

Very sensible advice here.

Controversially - I would either start the first cycle at 500mg/week test cyp or I would start with test prop at 100mg/EOD so that you can feel the very definite effects of testosterone and notice exactly what the compound is doing in your body.

250mg/week is higher than the natural baseline, enough to start with and very sensible advice. Just being honest what I would have recommended (and did personally - I started with test prop). If you start with test propionate then if you don't like it (you will like it, but the psychological factor is bigger than the drugs on first cycle) then it is out of your body very quickly. Test prop is also a more painful injection with a higher pinning frequency and will force you to get good at injecting with the frequency

 

[emptynest]

Very sensible advice here.

Controversially - I would either start the first cycle at 500mg/week test cyp or I would start with test prop at 100mg/EOD so that you can feel the very definite effects of testosterone and notice exactly what the compound is doing in your body.

250mg/week is higher than the natural baseline, enough to start with and very sensible advice. Just being honest what I would have recommended (and did personally - I started with test prop). If you start with test propionate then if you don't like it (you will like it, but the psychological factor is bigger than the drugs on first cycle) then it is out of your body very quickly. Test prop is also a more painful injection with a higher pinning frequency and will force you to get good at injecting with the frequency

I'm also more inclined to consider 500 mg a week a good beginner cycle. IMO, when you replace your natty test production with exogenous test your natty production will stop. 250 or 500 mg, doesnt matter... they both will put your LH and FSH ( other hormones that tell your nuts to make test and sperm) at near zero.
The reason I would suggest a pct is it will help speed up the natural production of test, generally has you feeling less crappy and may help you keep some more of the gains you made. It can be a light PCT, no need to do heavy doses of nolva and clomid.

The need for an AI varies from person to person and is also related to dose of testosterone. if you do 250mg per week of test, you will only need a little bit of an AI, or even none. Having your estradiol at a proper level will help you have a productive cycle and keep you happy an horny as well.

Blood work, you said your level is around 350 ng/dl test? thats real low for 24. You should work with your Dr to determine the cause of it and see if it can be remedied. Generally speaking, your levels will only get lower from doing a cycle and make it harder for your Dr to figure out why.

If you do a cycle, get bloods done before during and again a couple months after PCT. In the US its real easy to do bloods, and they even have some do it yourself test methods in the UK.

And like most things bodybuilding and weightlifting, its still mostly about diet and training. some guys do a round of steroids and dont accomplish shit.

 

[CFC]

I'm also more inclined to consider 500 mg a week a good beginner cycle. IMO, when you replace your natty test production with exogenous test your natty production will stop. 250 or 500 mg, doesnt matter... they both will put your LH and FSH ( other hormones that tell your nuts to make test and sperm) at near zero.

250mg is still plenty good for decent newbie gains, with the upside that it will cause fewer harms and less impact on recovery.

The reason I would suggest a pct is it will help speed up the natural production of test

Not on somebody who's using a low or moderate dose it won't, for whom LH/FSH usually recover rapidly anyway.

 

[Vicvinegar77]

Always good to have PCT on hand prior to cycle and always liver protection no matter what.

 

[Ukbball0214]

You definitely want to run PCT and when you run it will depend on what ester you used. For example, if you ran test cyp only (which I recommend) for 1st cycle then you would start your clomid, or nolvadex, or both about two weeks after your last shot. If running test prop or suspension then you'd start 48 hours after last shot.

I would say only do test cyp or test e by itself and on its own for your first cycle because if you run more than one steroid and you get unwanted side effects you will not be able to ascertain which steroid is giving you the sides, you know what I'm saying? So stick with test only on first cycle, then if you respond well and you want to add more than go at your own risk. Don't forget to add your arimidex or anistrozole during your cycle. If recommend .5 EOD bro. When your testosterone shoots up which it will if you run test but of any sort, your body naturally tries to balance out so your estrogen levels start rising to match your test levels. You DONT want this, this is what causes gynecomastia homie. It's easy to prevent, the anistrozole will decrease your estrogen by about 60 % give or take 5.

As far as PCT goes, I prefer nolvadex because clomid gave me horrendous sides but just at least go with one. If clomid run 50mg for 4 weeks. If nolvadex run 20 mg for 4 weeks. Have fun

 

[Serotonin101]

Clomid has been shown to boost test increase substantially more than Nolvadex. Also when ran concurrently I believe it was shown to be counter intuitive. Also minimize ai usage. Ai will affect liver valued and some estrogen (as long as negative side effects aren't present) can be a boost I'm anabolism. Also the extra water retention is beneficial in the muscles ability to contract and move weight while also cushioning the joints. A well hydrated cell is a more efficient cell.
What to really gather from this:
-go with what CFC recommends as this kinda thing relates to his profession and he has decades of experience both professional and hands on.

 

[Lotus123]

I'm also more inclined to consider 500 mg a week a good beginner cycle. IMO, when you replace your natty test production with exogenous test your natty production will stop. 250 or 500 mg, doesnt matter... they both will put your LH and FSH ( other hormones that tell your nuts to make test and sperm) at near zero.
The reason I would suggest a pct is it will help speed up the natural production of test, generally has you feeling less crappy and may help you keep some more of the gains you made. It can be a light PCT, no need to do heavy doses of nolva and clomid.

The need for an AI varies from person to person and is also related to dose of testosterone. if you do 250mg per week of test, you will only need a little bit of an AI, or even none. Having your estradiol at a proper level will help you have a productive cycle and keep you happy an horny as well.

Blood work, you said your level is around 350 ng/dl test? thats real low for 24. You should work with your Dr to determine the cause of it and see if it can be remedied. Generally speaking, your levels will only get lower from doing a cycle and make it harder for your Dr to figure out why.

If you do a cycle, get bloods done before during and again a couple months after PCT. In the US its real easy to do bloods, and they even have some do it yourself test methods in the UK.

And like most things bodybuilding and weightlifting, its still mostly about diet and training. some guys do a round of steroids and dont accomplish shit.

I am assuming the OP is from the UK? He can get bloodwork done here on the NHS if his GP is willing. He can also get testosterone prescribed privately though they usually give out the gel which is not much use for bodybuilding. It is very difficult to get testosterone on the NHS even when you qualify under the NHS guidelines (of which the minimum test level is rather low as a minimum)

 

[Lotus123]

250mg is still plenty good for decent newbie gains, with the upside that it will cause fewer harms and less impact on recovery.



Not on somebody who's using a low or moderate dose it won't, for whom LH/FSH usually recover rapidly anyway.

I realise the paradigm shift here:
WillM - are you planning to cycle on and off or blast and cruise? Do you intend to become a serious bodybuilder or are you just looking to build some muscle?

If WillM is looking at the bodybuilder route - 500mg test isn't much compared to what he will be running in future and it will get him used to the defiinite feel of testosterone before he runs other drugs. 250mg is logically more sensible but I'm just being honest

If WillM plans to cycle small amounts of testosterone to build muscles - 250mg would be more appropriate but honestly, I would not recommend steroids in this case. If you're not going to use them consistently; don't start them. You're taking on extra expense, the psychological ups and downs of building muscle and looking great then losing it all every time you come off.

In terms of recovery - a 24yo male running 250mg or 500mg test will recover relatively easily and rapidly from a short testosterone cycle. I have seen 24yo men recover from grams of testosterone with no HCG or PCT. HCG can be used when required

 

[Genetic Freak]

Clomid has been shown to boost test increase substantially more than Nolvadex. Also when ran concurrently I believe it was shown to be counter intuitive. Also minimize ai usage. Ai will affect liver valued and some estrogen (as long as negative side effects aren't present) can be a boost I'm anabolism. Also the extra water retention is beneficial in the muscles ability to contract and move weight while also cushioning the joints. A well hydrated cell is a more efficient cell.
What to really gather from this:
-go with what CFC recommends as this kinda thing relates to his profession and he has decades of experience both professional and hands on.

You are correct:

A SERM is not a SERM is not a SERM.

Clomid does more then act as an anti-estrogen in certain tissues. In the pituitary it acts as an estrogen, sensitizing pituitary cells to the actions of gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH). This stimulates release of FSH & LH. Enclomid the active anti-estrogenic component of Clomid is as effective as Clomid in this regard.

Tamoxifen (an anti-estrogen) is completely ineffective.

Clomid mediates the positive effect at the estrogen receptor.

Both Clomid and tamoxifen are almost equally effective at binding to the pituitary estrogen receptor. As noted Tamoxifen has no estrogen mediated effect in terms of an ability to increase GnRH-stimulated release of FSH & LH. What it does is just occupy the receptors...or block them so that E2 or Clomid can not have a positive influence.

That isn't what we want in the first few weeks of PCT. That is why not to use Tamoxifen in those early weeks.

 

[Genetic Freak]

Always good to have PCT on hand prior to cycle and always liver protection no matter what.

Why..? Esterified testosterone is not generally regarded as hepatotoxic, if not employing orals liver protection is kinda pointless...

 

[Genetic Freak]

I realise the paradigm shift here:
WillM - are you planning to cycle on and off or blast and cruise? Do you intend to become a serious bodybuilder or are you just looking to build some muscle?

If WillM is looking at the bodybuilder route - 500mg test isn't much compared to what he will be running in future and it will get him used to the defiinite feel of testosterone before he runs other drugs. 250mg is logically more sensible but I'm just being honest

If WillM plans to cycle small amounts of testosterone to build muscles - 250mg would be more appropriate but honestly, I would not recommend steroids in this case. If you're not going to use them consistently; don't start them. You're taking on extra expense, the psychological ups and downs of building muscle and looking great then losing it all every time you come off.

In terms of recovery - a 24yo male running 250mg or 500mg test will recover relatively easily and rapidly from a short testosterone cycle. I have seen 24yo men recover from grams of testosterone with no HCG or PCT. HCG can be used when required

Hi There friend and welcome over..

Remember old school bodybuilders used to cycle with significant time off, blast-cruise is a relatively new addition to bodybuilding, having tried it for over 7 years I can honestly say I've had better results employing time off...

Throwing numbers around such as 250mg, or 500mg without knowing a person's actual body weight and fat % is misguided... From a volume of distribution perspective a 70kg gym rat might best employ 250mg, someone with larger frame and 100kgs + might be best off closer to 500mg...

We are very conservative here, as you might have assumed..

 

[CFC]

This discussion about whether small doses works gets boring like Groundhog day after a while. I've written extensively about it on other first cycle type posts. Generally speaking most guys who think you need 500mg as a newbie have rarely tried to use less and simply repeat what they read elsewhere.

250mg, despite ester weight and bioavailability, is still 500-800% percent more test than most men produce naturally: let's stop pretending that doesn't do much. If a beginner (or even an advanced bloke like myself) can't get any mileage out of that boost, you're doing it wrong. Just give it a go.

 

[Lotus123]

You are both (CFC and Genetic Freak) probably right. I am used to a culture of much less conservative steroid use - monster guys taking serious amounts of drugs. I will have to adapt my logic paradigm to help the people on here