TDS Women vs Men -- I need to voice some thoughts

[Posiedon]

Let me first start by saying, I am about speak my mind on a very controversial topic. That is the reason I needed to come here. I do not wish to associate my name with a thought process that may seem incredibly Non-PC for a large group of people. Thus, if you are easily offended, I wanted to provide a bit of an ALERT to stop reading.


Recently in the past 5 years, I have been seeing more and more of these posts on Facebook, Media and news outlets, and friends / coworkers....about Rape, Victimization of women, the rights of women, oppression of women etc.


This deeply bothers me, and its such a strong topic of conversation I am always afraid of voicing my own opinions. It doesn't bother me because of the things in this world that actually do occur, it bothers me in the way people speak about them and how that portrays the other side in this conversation. Below, I will provide two of these thoughts. Please comment back as I really want to know how others see these issues.


1) In cases of assault, rape etc...sure no one can protect themselves from every situation....however when people start these giant campaigns about how women as an entire group are victimized, sexually harassed, humiliated, and powerless.....I don't see it. If someone wanted to assault me...I wouldn't expect it, and would probably be a victim too...but the kicker is...I am a man. What makes women any more different? They aren't as physically strong as men who assault them? Carry protection, address the situation of harassment head on. EQUAL rights....Equal opportunity to protect yourself...So if any argument says that its "different" for women....then that person is also admitting that the sexes are not equal, their abilities are not equal, and thus there really shouldn't be this whole campaign about women being able to do ANYTHING that men can do.


What really gets to me about the above is that....I keep seeing people writing poems, making documentaries, providing fake or skewed statistics, and essentially just "Talking" the issue out. What does this really do? It makes MEN the verbal and societal victims by placing the blame on them for your own inability to deal with the issue. Talking doesn't solve the issue. Do people really think the actual rapists give any care about what you want or say? They are going to do what they want regardless of the social pressure placed on them.


2) Secondly...oppression? Sure, in some countries, women are essentially on the same social level as a grain of salt. However, this isn't where conversations about this are taking place. These talks are taking place in the western world...in countries where historically speaking, women were taken care of, wined and dined, and respected. This in the past was done because women were viewed as "weak" and needing to be taken care of by the "man of the house". However, if we really want to go deep on this topic....if women want equal rights...then it needs to happen across the board. No wine and dine, no free drinks at a bar, equal leave from work for maternity and paternity, and no special rights in the courts with custody, potential domestic abuse. We can't have special bias towards a sex, and then say....I want equal rights.


When I was back in high school some 15 years ago...I would see these girls hit their boyfriend when upset, I would hear "i'll kick you in the balls if you do that"...and it was said and done without regard or thought. If a woman was in the middle of time square and off and punched her husband....people would be shocked but not much would really happen beyond that (I have seen this happen in the middle of a packed sports stadium...and people laughed at the man). However, if a man did the same thing to his wife...others would rush to her aid, the man would probably be attacked by others, and he would immediately be going to jail because he put his "strong hands" on his wife. IMO....assault is assault....but its not treated as such. There are so many little things like this that we have ingrained into our society and it's just accepted. This really pisses me off. If I am being attacked...why can't I fight back?


Sorry if this seemed like a misogynistic rant...But the reason I am coming here to talk is because I really needed to find a safe place to voice these thoughts....I also feel like a victim here. I am a victim of the "silencing" of society because my views are unpopular....but the funny thing is....its the people who are speaking out, the people who have all of the above things happen to them, their families, friends etc...and going public with what they feel. They are trying to change the world to better their own lives and I can respect that; but they do it without thinking about what happens to the other side...then men who are good: The men who do not rape, the men who have wives whom they love... The men who just want to be in this world, talk to someone random on the street be it man woman or child without feeling like they are the creep or danger.

 

[herbavore]

Let me first start by saying, I am about speak my mind on a very controversial topic. That is the reason I needed to come here. I do not wish to associate my name with a thought process that may seem incredibly Non-PC for a large group of people. Thus, if you are easily offended, I wanted to provide a bit of an ALERT to stop reading.


Recently in the past 5 years, I have been seeing more and more of these posts on Facebook, Media and news outlets, and friends / coworkers....about Rape, Victimization of women, the rights of women, oppression of women etc.


This deeply bothers me, and its such a strong topic of conversation I am always afraid of voicing my own opinions. It doesn't bother me because of the things in this world that actually do occur, it bothers me in the way people speak about them and how that portrays the other side in this conversation. Below, I will provide two of these thoughts. Please comment back as I really want to know how others see these issues.


1) In cases of assault, rape etc...sure no one can protect themselves from every situation....however when people start these giant campaigns about how women as an entire group are victimized, sexually harassed, humiliated, and powerless.....I don't see it. If someone wanted to assault me...I wouldn't expect it, and would probably be a victim too...but the kicker is...I am a man. What makes women any more different? They aren't as physically strong as men who assault them? Carry protection, address the situation of harassment head on. EQUAL rights....Equal opportunity to protect yourself...So if any argument says that its "different" for women....then that person is also admitting that the sexes are not equal, their abilities are not equal, and thus there really shouldn't be this whole campaign about women being able to do ANYTHING that men can do.

I don't think anyone has ever claimed that the sexes are equal in physical strength. Sure there are some women that are stronger than some men but in general I think we all recognize that there is a general inequality in physical strength. There are also recognized differences in the way we think, the way we process thoughts and emotions etc. Science will probably still be arguing for many years to come about the nature vs nurture aspects of these differences. I think the key here, both for you personally, as well as for peace between all gender identifications, is to step outside of the polarized aspects of thinking about this. If men use their physical strength, or even the threat of their physical strength, to dominate women I think we can all agree that is a problem. What about women that use their physical superiority in strength to dominate children? It is never OK to inflict superior strength on someone smaller or weaker but it is certainly welcome to have that same strength used when it can help! (I'm thinking of situations where a man's superior strength may be needed or a mother's superior strength may be needed to actually help the smaller, weaker person.)

What really gets to me about the above is that....I keep seeing people writing poems, making documentaries, providing fake or skewed statistics, and essentially just "Talking" the issue out. What does this really do? It makes MEN the verbal and societal victims by placing the blame on them for your own inability to deal with the issue. Talking doesn't solve the issue. Do people really think the actual rapists give any care about what you want or say? They are going to do what they want regardless of the social pressure placed on them.

Here, I do think that your thinking has been negatively affected by a misperceived, or perhaps overly personalized, view of individual women talking about their individual experiences and tying them into the larger historical framework. I actually agree with you that the propensity for women to say, "men do this and men do that" lumping all men together is as bad as men doing the same and saying, "women do this or women do that". Like any generalized view it leaves out all variations, complexity and dumbs down our ability to actually see people without framing them in a stereotype. But, even recognizing that, I will say that you are no more a victim of this than I am a victim of someone talking about a very real gender inequity--like paternal custody rights, say. When my neighbor, who certainly did get screwed by the courts due to gender bias, rails against all women, I am capable of seeing where his anger comes from and I try to not focus on how "unfair" it may be to me to be lumped in to a broad category myself; rather, I try to listen to his frustration, anger and legitimate pain.

I was the victim of a sexual assault by a stranger (attempted rape) as a young teen. I do not believe that the resultant anger and fear that have followed me for the rest of my long life represent an "inability to deal with the issue". As a diagnosis, this is called PTSD. Fending off a rapist is combat. I was a kid--this guy was a well dressed and seemingly ordinary middle class guy on a train--how was I supposed to discern which men might be actual enemies to me as a female? I struggled with this for a long time and I can admit now that many innocent men were unfortunately cast into the pool of potential attackers. But does this not make sense? is the returning veteran expected to have completely logical and rational reactions to his/her horrific combat experiences? I think most of us can understand in the case of veterans and victims of violent acts that "dealing with their issues" is a process that can take years. You cannot simply say, "I know this one rational thing to be true (not every man is an attacker, in fact the vast majority are not)" and suddenly have no residual fallout from traumatic experiences. The therapy--and believe me I have done it for years--is to try to heal the mind from the terror that robs you of your own rational thinking. But this kind of terror lives very deep in the body. I know this because I still cannot hike alone without panic. I am 63 years old. That is a long time to be engaged in a healing process. Yes, it has gotten better; but when I want to hike by myself I am always reminded that it still has not been completely healed and probably never will be.

2) Secondly...oppression? Sure, in some countries, women are essentially on the same social level as a grain of salt. However, this isn't where conversations about this are taking place. These talks are taking place in the western world...in countries where historically speaking, women were taken care of, wined and dined, and respected. This in the past was done because women were viewed as "weak" and needing to be taken care of by the "man of the house". However, if we really want to go deep on this topic....if women want equal rights...then it needs to happen across the board. No wine and dine, no free drinks at a bar, equal leave from work for maternity and paternity, and no special rights in the courts with custody, potential domestic abuse. We can't have special bias towards a sex, and then say....I want equal rights.

I agree with you here. I am a unapologetic feminist. But to me that means I want gender equality for all genders in all situations--from schools, to the workplace, to the courts, to intimate and casual relationships alike. If one gender is being oppressed we all suffer the consequences. This goes both ways.

When I was back in high school some 15 years ago...I would see these girls hit their boyfriend when upset, I would hear "i'll kick you in the balls if you do that"...and it was said and done without regard or thought. If a woman was in the middle of time square and off and punched her husband....people would be shocked but not much would really happen beyond that (I have seen this happen in the middle of a packed sports stadium...and people laughed at the man). However, if a man did the same thing to his wife...others would rush to her aid, the man would probably be attacked by others, and he would immediately be going to jail because he put his "strong hands" on his wife. IMO....assault is assault....but its not treated as such. There are so many little things like this that we have ingrained into our society and it's just accepted. This really pisses me off. If I am being attacked...why can't I fight back?

Again, I completely agree. It is not funny when someone hits someone else. Period. I actually had a mini rant about this in the Pet Peeves thread a couple of years ago and was amused to see many men on BL disagreed with me and thought that a woman slapping a man was everything from "cute" to "harmless". I used to work at a Battered Women's Shelter in my town. There is a vast difference in anyone being slapped and being beaten up, having bones broken, hair pulled out etc. Ironically the mental conditioning that encourage a woman to not only excuse her abuser but blame herself are being seen in abused men as well. The stigma for a man is much worse since it is assumed that he is emasculated rather than suffering from the exact same loss of self-worth that feeds victimization in women. But if we (and by we I mean the broader culture) promotes slapping as "cute" when it is from women to men (really common in films) then we are off course.

Sorry if this seemed like a misogynistic rant...But the reason I am coming here to talk is because I really needed to find a safe place to voice these thoughts....I also feel like a victim here. I am a victim of the "silencing" of society because my views are unpopular....but the funny thing is....its the people who are speaking out, the people who have all of the above things happen to them, their families, friends etc...and going public with what they feel. They are trying to change the world to better their own lives and I can respect that; but they do it without thinking about what happens to the other side...then men who are good: The men who do not rape, the men who have wives whom they love... The men who just want to be in this world, talk to someone random on the street be it man woman or child without feeling like they are the creep or danger.

I raised two sons and both my husband and my surviving son describe themselves as feminist in their worldviews. Raising sons taught me a lot about seeing the world through a male perspective. I saw how often the whole "girl power" movement morphed from good for girls to offensive and damaging to boys. But really this is just one more example of something authentic and positive being immediately coopted by capitalists to sell stupid tee shirts.8) I still dream of a gender equal world where everyone can see that what we have been handed by a capitalistic framework depends very much on one group oppressing another--whether that be racial, gender or ethnic. Sexism is very real but I certainly am under no illusion that women do not participate in the toxicity of it along with men. Patriarchy is responsible for many atrocities but to believe that matriarchy would not be as well is ridiculous IMO. The old saying "Power corrupts" is probably the truest thing ever said about human beings regardless of their chromosomes.

So how does a man not take it all personally? The same way a white person does. Or a privileged class. Or a citizen of a super-power. (Or like my son says: I am the lucky guy that fits into all the above categories.") You keep your eyes open and your heart open and you try to understand to the best of your abilities, another person's experience. You foster in your own mind not taking things personally. A really good book for this is The Four Agreements. Another one is Who Stole My Cheese?
There are also many blogs and psychology articles written about this.

No need to apologize. I don't see anything wrong with a good discussion--in fact I believe we need to have more of them. You cannot move forward alone. We talk a lot here in the Recovery forums about the uselessness or even damaging negative qualities of feeling guilty. Making a clear distinction between feeling remorse and feeling guilty is important. The former says "you are a bad person", the latter says, "you are a human being that is fallible but who can also learn and strive to improve". If you feel lumped into the category of bad person because you are male, it is important to distinguish whether this is actually coming from inside or outside or both? Usually it is a bit of both. I acknowledge that I am the product of a racist and sexist and xenophobic culture. So yes, I am not super-human, I am human and I will catch myself making people fit my unconscious stereotypes frequently. This is really what life is all about--it's a beautiful process of self-reclamation. When we were all two year olds, we found differences fascinating when we noticed them but mostly we did not notice them at all. Then we learned to categorize--a very nifty skill necessary for the survival of our species at one time in history. But now? Not so much. We all have much to unlearn but we do not have to castigate those who are in the process (which would be all of us) of jettisoning the ignorance we were trained to think of as truth. Those that should be blamed and castigated are those that promote the hatred and ignorance, particularly those that profit from it. Gender roles are probably the biggest marketing cash stream capitalism ever seized upon; capitalism didn't invent them but they sure do keep us all buying to achieve impossible perfection in what is presumed to be the others eyes.

When I encounter angry self-righteous people I try to do two things: 1) get underneath the self-righteousness to hear the authentic anger and 2) remember that I used to sound like that myself when I was about 18.

What if you simply told yourself : I will hear a lot of things said about my gender that I find offensive but I do not have to take those things personally because in truth they were not said as a personal attack. Any ideas I think are discriminatory I will speak out against--whether it is discrimination aimed at my group or another group.

That's what I do.

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

Let me first start by saying, I am about speak my mind on a very controversial topic. That is the reason I needed to come here. I do not wish to associate my name with a thought process that may seem incredibly Non-PC for a large group of people. Thus, if you are easily offended, I wanted to provide a bit of an ALERT to stop reading.


Recently in the past 5 years, I have been seeing more and more of these posts on Facebook, Media and news outlets, and friends / coworkers....about Rape, Victimization of women, the rights of women, oppression of women etc.


This deeply bothers me, and its such a strong topic of conversation I am always afraid of voicing my own opinions. It doesn't bother me because of the things in this world that actually do occur, it bothers me in the way people speak about them and how that portrays the other side in this conversation. Below, I will provide two of these thoughts. Please comment back as I really want to know how others see these issues.


1) In cases of assault, rape etc...sure no one can protect themselves from every situation....however when people start these giant campaigns about how women as an entire group are victimized, sexually harassed, humiliated, and powerless.....I don't see it. If someone wanted to assault me...I wouldn't expect it, and would probably be a victim too...but the kicker is...I am a man. What makes women any more different? They aren't as physically strong as men who assault them? Carry protection, address the situation of harassment head on. EQUAL rights....Equal opportunity to protect yourself...So if any argument says that its "different" for women....then that person is also admitting that the sexes are not equal, their abilities are not equal, and thus there really shouldn't be this whole campaign about women being able to do ANYTHING that men can do.


What really gets to me about the above is that....I keep seeing people writing poems, making documentaries, providing fake or skewed statistics, and essentially just "Talking" the issue out. What does this really do? It makes MEN the verbal and societal victims by placing the blame on them for your own inability to deal with the issue. Talking doesn't solve the issue. Do people really think the actual rapists give any care about what you want or say? They are going to do what they want regardless of the social pressure placed on them.


2) Secondly...oppression? Sure, in some countries, women are essentially on the same social level as a grain of salt. However, this isn't where conversations about this are taking place. These talks are taking place in the western world...in countries where historically speaking, women were taken care of, wined and dined, and respected. This in the past was done because women were viewed as "weak" and needing to be taken care of by the "man of the house". However, if we really want to go deep on this topic....if women want equal rights...then it needs to happen across the board. No wine and dine, no free drinks at a bar, equal leave from work for maternity and paternity, and no special rights in the courts with custody, potential domestic abuse. We can't have special bias towards a sex, and then say....I want equal rights.


When I was back in high school some 15 years ago...I would see these girls hit their boyfriend when upset, I would hear "i'll kick you in the balls if you do that"...and it was said and done without regard or thought. If a woman was in the middle of time square and off and punched her husband....people would be shocked but not much would really happen beyond that (I have seen this happen in the middle of a packed sports stadium...and people laughed at the man). However, if a man did the same thing to his wife...others would rush to her aid, the man would probably be attacked by others, and he would immediately be going to jail because he put his "strong hands" on his wife. IMO....assault is assault....but its not treated as such. There are so many little things like this that we have ingrained into our society and it's just accepted. This really pisses me off. If I am being attacked...why can't I fight back?


Sorry if this seemed like a misogynistic rant...But the reason I am coming here to talk is because I really needed to find a safe place to voice these thoughts....I also feel like a victim here. I am a victim of the "silencing" of society because my views are unpopular....but the funny thing is....its the people who are speaking out, the people who have all of the above things happen to them, their families, friends etc...and going public with what they feel. They are trying to change the world to better their own lives and I can respect that; but they do it without thinking about what happens to the other side...then men who are good: The men who do not rape, the men who have wives whom they love... The men who just want to be in this world, talk to someone random on the street be it man woman or child without feeling like they are the creep or danger.

Welcome to bluelight.

I do agree with some of the points you make in your essay. Especially how in the western world women are not discriminated against and do have equality. People who believe this is not true should go visit or live in a Communist country, Socialist country, various African, Asian, South American countries, and Middle Eastern countries, or visit a country where there's Sharia law.

This prepetual professional oppression mentality in the western world, and the idea that women are somehow complete victims of oppression and discrimination of everything needs to end.

Are women oppressed in your country?

Are women in the country where you live able to:
- Vote?
- Drive?
- Wear what they want?
- Go to school?
- Divorce their husband?
- Own property?
- Go out alone?
- Be uncircumcised?
- Have a career?
- Choose who to marry?
- Get help if abused?
- Prohibited by law from having financial independence?
- Is there anything that you are legally prohibited from doing that a man can?

If you answered "yes" to the above, then Congratulations you're not oppressed!

 

[alpha_centauri]

Why would any woman with any intelligence actually subscribe to feminism or the philosophy that they are a victim, oppressed, or have it worse than men and are under the control of men? NONE of these things are true, women have more power than men do in a lot of ways.

I showed this post to my wife and she got to the part about how your husband and kids are male feminists and just laughed.

She said how ALL of the so called 'male feminists' and male women's studies majors/minors she met whilst at multiple universities did this just in the hopes of getting a woman to sleep with them, and that it reaked of desperation and was pathetic.

A lot of silly feminists believe that being a hooker, prostitute, or 'sex worker' is liberating and that the 'sex industry' is safe despite how for centuries women who are prostitutes have been murdered, raped, abused, and degraded by their male and female clients, and male and female pimps.

 

[spacejunk]

fantastic post herby.

alpha_centauri, you should attempt to engage with the actual discussion, rather than name-calling.

If you answered "yes" to the above, then Congratulations you're not oppressed!

what are you talking about? bold text does not make for a sound or convincing argument.
do you not acknowledge that oppression can be subtle and ingrained to the point that we take it for granted? sexual inequality does not just happen in "foreign" countries.
a lot of the arguments in this thread about why women's issues are not relevant in the west seems to be reliant on some idea of Western cultural superiority.
gender issues are not culturally relative. just because women are stoned to death for adultery in saudi arabia does not mean western countries are not patriarchal.

perhaps i'm biased because i really find misogyny revolting. in the same way homophobes find gay people repulsive, or the same way pro-lifers think abortion is sick.
call me PC or whatever, but i was discussing a topic related to this earlier this evening; something along the lines of "friends don't let friends date anti-feminists". i don't trust guys who are chauvinists. maybe that's not very nice of me, but it's a massive red-flag for me personally when people say that women are not oppressed by our social gender systems.
they are.
and men are too. that's the thing to remember - gender inequity (like wealth inequity) negatively affects everyone; not just women, and not just the poor (respectively).

if you want to talk about rape, sexual assault and victimhood - you're doing yourself (and the discussion) a massive disservice by not acknowledging that men are also victims of rape and sexual assault.
the thing is, women are very rarely the perpetrators of sexual assault. most (sexual) abusers are men. victims are both male and female.

as for abusive relationships - i've dated abusive women. i dated a crazy girl when i was younger who threw a few punches at me in a nightclub after we'd broken up, and i was with someone else.
it put me in a very awkward position - as i couldn't retaliate or fight back in self defence, and i felt that everyone that was watching (who didn't know us) probably assumed that i was a creep who had done something bad.

but this awkwardness was a result of my male privilege. i can admit and understand that. i don't fall for the myths of 21st century western judeo-christian hetereonormativity that tell us that only the savages in other countries have gender inequality issues.

the difference is, when men are the violent, abusive partners in relationships - it is all too often the woman that is beaten, brutalised - and even murdered - because the male/female dynamic is not typically balanced, culturally, psychologically or physically.
that is why women's shelters exist, why so many people fight for women's rights. it's because a lot of women are vulnerable to violence and abuse - not because they are out to attack men.

A lot of silly feminists believe that being a hooker, prostitute, or 'sex worker' is liberating and that the 'sex industry' is safe despite how for centuries women who are prostitutes have been murdered, raped, abused, and degraded by their male and female clients, and male and female pimps.

do you have a source for this? i've known a lot of "silly feminists", but never heard this...uh, argument.
sounds like a you're making shit up.


i love how certain guys clamber to deny that oppression of women exists in the west. the patronising and dismissive manner in which you do so only goes to disprove what you're arguing.

 

[alpha_centauri]

fantastic post herby.

alpha_centauri, you should attempt to engage with the actual discussion, rather than name-calling.



what are you talking about? bold text does not make for a sound or convincing argument.
do you not acknowledge that oppression can be subtle and ingrained to the point that we take it for granted? sexual inequality does not just happen in "foreign" countries.
a lot of the arguments in this thread about why women's issues are not relevant in the west seems to be reliant on some idea of Western cultural superiority.
gender issues are not culturally relative. just because women are stoned to death for adultery in saudi arabia does not mean western countries are not patriarchal.

perhaps i'm biased because i really find misogyny revolting. in the same way homophobes find gay people repulsive, or the same way pro-lifers think abortion is sick.
call me PC or whatever, but i was discussing a topic related to this earlier this evening; something along the lines of "friends don't let friends date anti-feminists". i don't trust guys who are chauvinists. maybe that's not very nice of me, but it's a massive red-flag for me personally when people say that women are not oppressed by our social gender systems.
they are.
and men are too. that's the thing to remember - gender inequity (like wealth inequity) negatively affects everyone; not just women, and not just the poor (respectively).

if you want to talk about rape, sexual assault and victimhood - you're doing yourself (and the discussion) a massive disservice by not acknowledging that men are also victims of rape and sexual assault.
the thing is, women are very rarely the perpetrators of sexual assault. most (sexual) abusers are men. victims are both male and female.

as for abusive relationships - i've dated abusive women. i dated a crazy girl when i was younger who threw a few punches at me in a nightclub after we'd broken up, and i was with someone else.
it put me in a very awkward position - as i couldn't retaliate or fight back in self defence, and i felt that everyone that was watching (who didn't know us) probably assumed that i was a creep who had done something bad.

but this awkwardness was a result of my male privilege. i can admit and understand that. i don't fall for the myths of 21st century western judeo-christian hetereonormativity that tell us that only the savages in other countries have gender inequality issues.

the difference is, when men are the violent, abusive partners in relationships - it is all too often the woman that is beaten, brutalised - and even murdered - because the male/female dynamic is not typically balanced, culturally, psychologically or physically.
that is why women's shelters exist, why so many people fight for women's rights. it's because a lot of women are vulnerable to violence and abuse - not because they are out to attack men.



do you have a source for this? i've known a lot of "silly feminists", but never heard this...uh, argument.
sounds like a you're making shit up.


i love how certain guys clamber to deny that oppression of women exists in the west. the patronising and dismissive manner in which you do so only goes to disprove what you're arguing.

Kid, nothing posted in this thread is misogyny or actually a hatred of women.

Or would you prefer censorship and that nobody writes or questions ANYtHING about gender which silly people with useless PhD.s in gender studies, queer theory, and women's studies all claim is nothing but a social construct?

This topic is about WOMEN. So you became a doormat for some chick you may have banged. Don't come crying to us about it since you are a pussy and take punches, and don't fight back and let yourself be abused both physically and psychologically just because she's a woman.

Stop living in your world of theories and start living in reality. My wife is correct, 'men' like you just pretend to be for women's rights just in the hopes you will get laid.


http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/you-can-be-a-feminist-and-a-sex-worker-8744176.html

http://www.inquiriesjournal.com/articles/28/a-feminists-argument-on-how-sex-work-can-benefit-women

 

[herbavore]

Why would any woman with any intelligence actually subscribe to feminism or the philosophy that they are a victim, oppressed, or have it worse than men and are under the control of men? NONE of these things are true, women have more power than men do in a lot of ways.

I showed this post to my wife and she got to the part about how your husband and kids are male feminists and just laughed.

She said how ALL of the so called 'male feminists' and male women's studies majors/minors she met whilst at multiple universities did this just in the hopes of getting a woman to sleep with them, and that it reaked of desperation and was pathetic.

A lot of silly feminists believe that being a hooker, prostitute, or 'sex worker' is liberating and that the 'sex industry' is safe despite how for centuries women who are prostitutes have been murdered, raped, abused, and degraded by their male and female clients, and male and female pimps.

Hey, thanks for the positive 8! contribution to a discussion.

 

[spacejunk]

So you became a doormat for some chick you may have banged. Don't come crying to us about it since you are a pussy and take punches, and don't fight back and let yourself be abused both physically and psychologically just because she's a woman.

Your hysterical (geddit? ) response seems to indicate a deep unease with 'discussing' this topic, as you seem unable to do so without abuse, stereotyping, name-calling and constructing strawman arguments. thank you for demonstrating a couple of my points, especially my final comment.

i didn't tell the whole anecdote about the 'getting attacked by ex gf in a nightclub' situation because it isn't really relevant that my friends managed to diffuse the situation. what are friends for?
the point was not about my masculinity, but i'm very secure in that, thanks very much.

you don't know anything about me, so your assumptions really only reflect on you.

 

[szuko000]

Kid, nothing posted in this thread is misogyny or actually a hatred of women.

Or would you prefer censorship and that nobody writes or questions ANYtHING about gender which silly people with useless PhD.s in gender studies, queer theory, and women's studies all claim is nothing but a social construct?

This topic is about WOMEN. So you became a doormat for some chick you may have banged. Don't come crying to us about it since you are a pussy and take punches, and don't fight back and let yourself be abused both physically and psychologically just because she's a woman.

Stop living in your world of theories and start living in reality. My wife is correct, 'men' like you just pretend to be for women's rights just in the hopes you will get laid.

LOL angry much? The issue with the last part is you are assuming your own conscious desires on other people, not everyone cares about getting laid and thus it is not everyones motivation. It may be your motivation for behavior however, some people are empathetic and will side with people they feel are under valued if they see value in them.

You shouldnt seek to chastise those different from you because you hold a specific world view

 

[spacejunk]

Absolute nonsense.
Thank you, though, for again demostrating that anti-feminism is the most vacuous ideology around.
Not a single point to support any MRA claims. Just entitlement and baseless claims of victimisation.

 

[zephyr]

I am stunned that this is still up in The Dark side.

 

[d3athadone]

Oh god. Every one is different. The end.

 

[RDP89]

If anything, men are discriminated against more than women. (in western countries)

In fact, I'm positive of this. There is a war against masculinity. Fuck feminism.

lmao, what fucking planet are you living on? I'm ashamed to have to share the first name Ryan with your dumb ass(if that is your real name....)

 

[Erikmen]

In countries like sweden and denmark, you can actually get into trouble for being too muscular :D

This is not true.

 

[herbavore]

I am stunned that this is still up in The Dark side.

Yeah, here's the deal folks: this thread was started by someone who was being genuine. He wanted to know how others felt and he wanted to express thoughts that he felt uncomfortable expressing IRL--he asked for discussion. That's valid. What is not valid is bringing in all sorts of other crap that has nothing to do with this thread.

Ryan, and alpha _centauri your mean-spirited baiting of other posters, sarcasm and outright falsehoods are really not appropriate. Keep it civil or get infracted. Better yet, take it somewhere else. You have a right to your opinions but no right to bash others for theirs. They have debate classes in adult school--maybe that would be something useful for you to try. Trying to shame people out of their ideas does nothing positive no matter what your POV is.

 

[cduggles]

I got bashed for my opinion

Shocker. Seriously, if those users bashed me I'd feel really awful.

OP, I want equal pay for equal work, which you forgot. Interesting.

 

[JessFR]

Divorced men are 7x more likely to commit suicide than divorced women. This is because they are discriminated against and routinely fucked over by the courts.

Men are more likely to commit suicide period. Much as I hate the supposed men's rights movement, that's true about the courts. The courts sided with one of my best friends mom and sent her to live withher where her mom looked the other way and enabled her stepfather to rape her and repeatedly put her in hospital for years instead of placing her with her father. Eventually she got to live with her dad and the abuse stopped. But only after years of sexual and severe physical abuse. Cause the child is always better with the mom. Bullshit.

 

[alpha_centauri]

Yeah, here's the deal folks: this thread was started by someone who was being genuine. He wanted to know how others felt and he wanted to express thoughts that he felt uncomfortable expressing IRL--he asked for discussion. That's valid. What is not valid is bringing in all sorts of other crap that has nothing to do with this thread.

Ryan, and alpha _centauri your mean-spirited baiting of other posters, sarcasm and outright falsehoods are really not appropriate. Keep it civil or get infracted. Better yet, take it somewhere else. You have a right to your opinions but no right to bash others for theirs. They have debate classes in adult school--maybe that would be something useful for you to try. Trying to shame people out of their ideas does nothing positive no matter what your POV is.

Nothing I wrote is a falsehood, and I'm not baiting, bashing, being sarcastic, etc. Ryan and I are being bashed for writing facts that some people who are biased do not want to accept as being true.

 

[JessFR]

Why would any woman with any intelligence actually subscribe to feminism or the philosophy that they are a victim, oppressed, or have it worse than men and are under the control of men? NONE of these things are true, women have more power than men do in a lot of ways.

I showed this post to my wife and she got to the part about how your husband and kids are male feminists and just laughed.

She said how ALL of the so called 'male feminists' and male women's studies majors/minors she met whilst at multiple universities did this just in the hopes of getting a woman to sleep with them, and that it reaked of desperation and was pathetic.

A lot of silly feminists believe that being a hooker, prostitute, or 'sex worker' is liberating and that the 'sex industry' is safe despite how for centuries women who are prostitutes have been murdered, raped, abused, and degraded by their male and female clients, and male and female pimps.

I consider myself a feminist and I entirely agree about the sex trade. In the same way as there are men who play sensitive feminist to appeal to women, I think there are women who play antifeminist to appeal to men. People should be more careful with generalizations. I consider myself a feminist but I hate the pervasive putting down of men in mass media too. You see it all the time, especially in sitcoms and ads. If they did the same thing genders reversed people would be outraged. Sexism is wrong regardless of target. But it's also bullshit to think women are not the target of sexism or disadvantage in the modern world.

I just wish people would put their assumptions aside and show more interest in finding out the truth than proving themselves right.

 

[szuko000]

Nothing I wrote is a falsehood, and I'm not baiting, bashing, being sarcastic, etc. Ryan and I are being bashed for writing facts that some people who are biased do not want to accept as being true.

This topic is about WOMEN. So you became a doormat for some chick you may have banged. Don't come crying to us about it since you are a pussy and take punches, and don't fight back and let yourself be abused both physically and psychologically just because she's a woman.

Care to explain how that is not baiting or bashing? You really hurt your stance by becoming angry and loud... one would have thought you learned that the first to anger is the one who loses the argument. It was actually this response in general that made me lose the idea that you are creditable. I am not trying to bash you i am just saying, that whole response really ruined it for me, you should work on phrasing.