Any possible methods to restore WM and VM functioning after prolonged depression?

[mb-909]

I have been curious about finding some information about restoring non emotional memory functioning, but didn't find any useful information. The literature i read, seems to say that there can be lasting cognitive deficits even after the depressive episode has vanished. CBT seems to work great for emotional memory, so I am asking myself if there are ways to help out the WM and VM functioning. I guess that the reason for such deficits are the lessend social interacting, work and selfenhancement, which could all be tackled after the depression fades. Right now I am going to try an antidepressant, probably mirtazapine, for my mental "disorder" and use it in combination with a CBT. If there are any known methods I could read up, besides meditation, I would really appreciate your input.

 

[themoreyouknow]

What do you mean by CBT?
I also struggle with depression induced memory deficits and also want to find something to treat this issue.
From what I have heard SSRI's can prove to be helpful for some people in regaining memorial function, because they increase Neurogenesis.At least for some people this works, although mostly the memory function never goes back to its original capacity.
Following this logic the classic psychedelics can also help, because in micro- or low-doses psychedelics also increase Neurogenesis.
Currently I am doing both SSRI's and microdoses of LSD to help my depression/memory issue, but it's too early for me to say if it works for me since I have just started.
Maybe I can report in one month if it helps.

 

[mb-909]

What do you mean by CBT?
I also struggle with depression induced memory deficits and also want to find something to treat this issue.
From what I have heard SSRI's can prove to be helpful for some people in regaining memorial function, because they increase Neurogenesis.At least for some people this works, although mostly the memory function never goes back to its original capacity.
Following this logic the classic psychedelics can also help, because in micro- or low-doses psychedelics also increase Neurogenesis.
Currently I am doing both SSRI's and microdoses of LSD to help my depression/memory issue, but it's too early for me to say if it works for me since I have just started.
Maybe I can report in one month if it helps.

CBT means Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. It is proven to be as effective as medication. Psilocybin helped me with my panic attacks and in low doses can increase neurogenesis as well. The important point is that neurogenesis alone doesn't necesserly lift your depression. The amygdala, which is thought to be relevant for fight and flight responses, seems to be hyperactive in depressed and anxious people. For me this means that the chronic stress I have been exposed too probably leads to a hyperactivation of said neuronal cluster leading to a flight or fight response (negative emotional response). After the SORC model this means that if I am trying to avoid the negative stimulus it increases the neagtive behavior through negative reinforcement. This is the reason why I am going to try mirtazapine for treatment, since it seems to tackle the neative emotional thoughts and reduces the stress I am exposed to.

The fundamental negative thought loops leading to my depressive state can only be altered by the change of my behavior, which isn't easy when you lived yourself in near social isolation for years. I simply want to get rid of my negative and weird behavior and I am interessted to improve myself in every aspect if possible. Everything is connected and so altering one thing can lead to alteration in many different things - behavior (evironment) corellates with neurochemical and neurobiological structure changes. Thats the reason why I ask specifically for methods, because drugs are often times a simple band aid for underlying problems, which can only be solved by hard work of the individual. I am in a bad depressive mood right now, so I tend to overthink a little bit, but at least it keeps me from thinking straight bullshit ^^.

 

[Theroux]

A current theory of depression and anxiety which s gaining a lot of support is the idea of decreased plasticity in the brains of sufferers which is linked to a decrease in memory and learning. BDNF seems to be important in growing new neuronal networks which in turn could help depression.

There a lots of ways to increase BDNF with varying degrees of impact. Exercise and meditation along with a healthy diet high in fish oil are ways in which you can increase levels naturally.

 

[Charles_Voynich]

A current theory of depression and anxiety which s gaining a lot of support is the idea of decreased plasticity in the brains of sufferers which is linked to a decrease in memory and learning. BDNF seems to be important in growing new neuronal networks which in turn could help depression.

There a lots of ways to increase BDNF with varying degrees of impact. Exercise and meditation along with a healthy diet high in fish oil are ways in which you can increase levels naturally.

Yes! This!

One of the hallmarks of severe, untreated depression is essentially neuronal atrophy, wherein you see a decrease in dendritic arbor complexity, decreased density of dendritic spines and corresponding dendritic proteins, changes in gene expression, etc. I'm very interested in drugs which have the ability to either induce BDNF secretion, or somehow mimic it's signaling in order to counteract these effects. What you need in that case is something that strongly binds TrkB receptors, as these form a positive feedback loop which ultimately leads to more BDNF production and signaling. 7,8-DHF is a known TrkB agonist which I believe is both bioavailable and orally active, so I've been very interested in getting my hands on some of that. Amitriptyline also does this, which could be another option if it weren't for the cardiotoxicity.

 

[Overcoming]

ne of the hallmarks of severe, untreated depression is essentially neuronal atrophy, wherein you see a decrease in dendritic arbor complexity, decreased density of dendritic spines and corresponding dendritic proteins, changes in gene expression, etc

How long does it take for that to happenn? and in that case, can it be reversed? WOuld psychotherapy, like CBT or psychodynamic therapy do that alone, or would you also require the use of medication? Tell us more!

Is it true that curcumin (one of the isolated chemicals from the turmeric plant), can induce hippocampal neurogenesis and increase BDNF?

 

[Theroux]

Yes there is evidence that curcumin increases BDNF. Here is an interesting paper on it: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006899306027144

The take home message is that curcumin indirectly increases BDNF by blocking the decresing levels caused by chronic stress.

CBT helps you to realise patterns in your behaviour and way of thinking, by understanding and talking through your problems you can learn knew and better ways to control the situation, improve your mood and see that the distorted way you view situations in both anxiety and depression is flawed.

By using medications that can stimulate neurogenesis and improving BDNF you are enhancing the benefits gained from CBT. Additionally, you are benefiting from in everyday life when you encounter problems and are better able to learn from them.

IMO/E both CBT and these medications/ supplements are the fastest way to see noticeable improvements in your depression, definitely better than on their own .

 

[Charles_Voynich]

How long does it take for that to happenn? and in that case, can it be reversed? WOuld psychotherapy, like CBT or psychodynamic therapy do that alone, or would you also require the use of medication? Tell us more!

Is it true that curcumin (one of the isolated chemicals from the turmeric plant), can induce hippocampal neurogenesis and increase BDNF?

It really depends on the person and the specific case. These are long-term changes though, happening over months to years of untreated depression. And absolutely it can be reversed; for the most part, as long as a neuron isn't dead, moving towards apoptosis, or doesn't have severe genetic damage, these changes will normalize over time with effective treatment. I could be wrong, but as far as I was aware there's no cold, hard rule on which types of therapies can reverse these changes; I know that when a patient is being effectively treated with even something as simple as an SSRI, you tend to see a return of normal hippocampal volume. Obviously, in an alive patient you can't exactly measure dendritic spines or the complexity of arbors, so you need to rely on things like fMRI in order to see these brain changes, unless you happen to have a postmortem brain.

Yeah, curcumin has been known to do that, but compounds like curcumin are especially prone to giving "false positives" in biological assays. They're just one of those natural products which are difficult to turn into an effective medication for a host of different reasons. However, there are a number of other ways to increase BDNF signaling. It's becoming well established that psychedelics in general seem to increase BDNF, either by binding to TrkB receptors or stimulating secretion through some other mechanism (possibly SigmaR-mediated release), ketamine of course, and some of the tricyclic antidepressants.

 

[adamturner]

You guys are talking about similar things i am experiencing. I am diagnosed with sever ptsd and depression. Motivation is tough. I've noticed over the last 10 yrs that i can't remember things as clearly as i use to. Are you suggesting that my memory is failing because of depressuon?
For your anxiety, try ativan sublingualy. I take it as a prn. I dont like the three times a day meds that make me feel tired. Effexor was a good antidepressant, but if you quit taking it, watch out, made me feel like i was hung over and going crazy.

 

[Overcoming]

Is it just SSRIs? Or other anti-depressants such as MAOIS and Bupropion?

Is their a critical window in order for this to have effect? Does the medication need to be taken during the stressful period?

If it isn't, then how long is there for the medication to still be taken and benefits obtained (and by that, i mean increasing hippocampal volume + neurogenesis).

What about any other natural methods or any supplements?

thanks people

 

[Theroux]

Unfortunately there isn't a huge amount of research on this topic at present so we cannot yet say if their is a critical window or if a stress a obligatory factor. We also cannot give a time frame for how long until benefits are seen or to what degrees different medications induce growth.

Meditation, fish oil (specifically DHEA) and curcumin (found in turmeric) are natural ways which are thought to have a beneficial impact on BDNF and neurogenesis.

 

[Overcoming]

Damn. I wish that I had stayed on my SSRIduring this awful time. Even if it doesn't do anything for my symptoms, it might at least save my hippocampal neurons.

I am also taking Pregabalin - I have read some studies showing that this compound promotes hippocampal neurogenesis in response to chronic stress.

Would Krill Oil work?

I am going to start taking turmeric capsules, and then may switch it to curcumin once my body has got used to it.

Meditation - this has actually been contraindicated for people with dissociative disorders (like myself), so will have to do something else. IS there any particular form of meditation that is effective? What about lying down focusing in on my favourite music and trying to pay attention to it?

 

[Theroux]

http://www.nature.com/nrn/journal/v16/n4/box/nrn3916_BX4.html

In this paper they were looking at the neuroscience of mindfulness meditation as a whole. Unfortunately, I can't say exactly which meditation techniques work best.

Sorry I didn't mean DHEA but DHA (completely different compounds). Krill oil could help if it contains an alright amount DHA, different brands vary though. I doubt it will make a huge amount of difference in the overall scheme of things as to whether its fish oil or krill oil.

As a quick disclaimer, all the aforementioned techniques can only help to a certain degree. All should be used in moderation, taking them in overdose doesn't mean you will see faster or more noticeable effects. I personally believe the best combination is CBT with or without medications (SSRIs, SNRIs etc) whilst using meditation, fish oil and other natural methods to SUPPLEMENT this.

 

[themoreyouknow]

I don't think it is that important after all which technique you use, because it all comes down to your personal experience, when it comes to these "slippery" topics like meditation. There are many different ways of meditating including meditating while on a walk or concentration on all of your senses one after the other or my favorite one concentrating on important philosophical questions in life.
CBT is not the only solution, but In fact the most reliable one. And no doubt this should be the first thing you try.
I have found my memory gets better, when I do intermittent fasting and/or ketosis. It's really worth a shot if you are ready to make a change in life.