Going on holiday

nolys

Bluelight Crew
Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
3,547
So I was doing a bulk of test deca and dbol just to add some bulk weight, but I booked a holiday on a whim in June 10 weeks from now so plans have changed to a bulking recomp.

In my current arsenal I have....
Test e
Test p
Tren a
Tren e
Dbol
Superdrol
Deca.

My plan is to drop the deca, run the dbol for 4 weeks
Use my 20mls of tren a 350mg per week while starting 400mg pw tren e and running that up until the end
Keep test at 250 as per usual
Maybe run superdrol weeks 7-10, stopping a week before I go away. Maybe even 2 to give my liver a break before drinking while I'm away.
Im not in bad shape atm, just want bigger, leaner and drier.

Any input?
Mast or winny?
Any additions or feedback on the current cycle?
 
Might want to cut orals earlier to give your liver time to recover. Also don't forget kidneys too. If wanting a DHT I'd opt for mast as to less liver damage. Also why so much tren for a recomp? 400/week tren e should be sufficient OR 350 ace. Honestly I'd do test+tren+mast and diet for 4-6 weeks modestly. Not a huge deficit but to tighten up, then add dbol and slowly up cals to maintenance or a little over (200-400 above) to fill out but not spill over. Cut dbol a week before trip. Liver gets a break, pin a couple ml of tren e the two weeks leading to trip and enjoy.
 
I'm not going to comment as I'm a bit like the boring old fart always complaining about reckless kids, but...

Take less! Of everything. And titrate the doses upwards throughout the cycle for improved effect (so, start with less).
 
Might want to cut orals earlier to give your liver time to recover. Also don't forget kidneys too. If wanting a DHT I'd opt for mast as to less liver damage. Also why so much tren for a recomp? 400/week tren e should be sufficient OR 350 ace. Honestly I'd do test+tren+mast and diet for 4-6 weeks modestly. Not a huge deficit but to tighten up, then add dbol and slowly up cals to maintenance or a little over (200-400 above) to fill out but not spill over. Cut dbol a week before trip. Liver gets a break, pin a couple ml of tren e the two weeks leading to trip and enjoy.

I'm not sure on the mast tbh what do you think? I'm considering dropping the dbol like you say and giving my liver a break.
The reason for all the tren is I only have about 15-20 days worth left of the ace, so I'm basically using it to kick-start the e. So really it's going to be 350, then 400

Should I knock the tren in the head 2 weeks prior to leaving or shoot it the day before I Leave? I feel awesome on tren.

I'm not going to comment as I'm a bit like the boring old fart always complaining about reckless kids, but...

Take less! Of everything. And titrate the doses upwards throughout the cycle for improved effect (so, start with less).

Well CFC its only 250mg of test and 400 of tren that's hardly mega doses. That's the backbone of the cycle. And considering dropping deca and dbol altogether 250 test isn't much more than trt and tren e 400mg per week isn't massive lol.
 
Oh and I've never used mast or winny before btw
 
No you're right, it's not that much. But don't do the kickstart. That would be counterproductive. Start very low, and build your doses to above that level as you go. Read >>this<< post to see my reasoning.
 
No you're right, it's not that much. But don't do the kickstart. That would be counterproductive. Start very low, and build your doses to above that level as you go. Read >>this<< post to see my reasoning.

But isn't your post about frontloading rather than kick-start? My thinking was that 350mg ace is the equivalent of 400mg E, by the time the ace has ran out the e is starting to kick into full gear?
I was planning on maybe 400 for 5-6 weeks to see how I get on (never ran tren e) then upping to 5-600 if needs be. It's seriously strong tren e, others I know raved about it. And if you read my post about glass in a vial, it was actually the tren had recrystalised.

Could you explain why I shouldn't use the ace as a bridge until the e kicks? Your posy is more to do with frontloading. And because of that post I don't frontload anymore so I do pay attention to your advice lol, read it a while back
 
I see what he means. It's basically allowing your body to grow with your dose so you don't plateau as quickly or place unnecessary stress on the body
 
But isn't your post about front loading rather than kick-start? My thinking was that 350mg ace is the equivalent of 400mg E, by the time the ace has ran out the e is starting to kick into full gear?
I was planning on maybe 400 for 5-6 weeks to see how I get on (never ran tren e) then upping to 5-600 if needs be. It's seriously strong tren e, others I know raved about it. And if you read my post about glass in a vial, it was actually the tren had recrystallized.

Could you explain why I shouldn't use the ace as a bridge until the e kicks? Your post is more to do with frontloading. And because of that post I don't frontload anymore so I do pay attention to your advice lol, read it a while back

Hi Paul... Why not just stay on the test-nandrolone..? Its only a holiday, why change your original plans for a one or two week break..?

Any compound releases into the blood after the first few hours, up to maximum peak at about 24-48 hrs post injection, tren-e is best injected at least twice per week, maybe more..

The benefit of the enanthate ester over acetate, is slower increase to maximal blood concentrations (4.5 X half-life) hopefully reducing the possibility of initiating harsh side effects..

The excellent post on why you should not frontload explains the benefits of building up slowly over time...

Kickstart - frontload is there a difference..?
 
Last edited:
Hi Paul... Why not just stay on the test-nandrolone..? Its only a holiday, why change your original plans for a one or two week break..?

Any compound releases into the blood after the first few hours, up to maximum peak at about 24-48 hrs post injection, tren-e is best injected at least twice per week, maybe more..

The benefit of the enanthate ester over acetate, is slower increase to maximal blood concentrations (4.5 X half-life) hopefully reducing the possibility of initiating harsh side effects..

The excellent post on why you should not frontload explains the benefits of building up slowly over time...

Kickstart - frontload is there a difference..?

Ive been looking for an excuse to use this tren e I have lying about, and now I have it, it is coming up to summer so I may as well get into a good shape instead of looking pretty bloated.

And I understand how esters work and how it reaches maximum blood concentration within 48 hours, although maximum blood concentration doesn't correlate with when effects are felt so Imo that point is void (for my purposes anyway)

Now saying that.... Upon consideration of cfcs post I have decided to drop the ace, run dbol 20mg until the tren takes effect, I've already been running dbol anyway so that's no change, but I have reduced the dose. The stuff I have is pretty strong, 40mg was giving me pumps that were cutting my sessions short.
So it's 250 test
400 tren e
20mg dbol.

And I inject any long Ester twice weekly including deca. Prop and ace should really be ed but I only inject e2d.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Frontload and kickstart are two words that have the same meaning really mate - starting your cycle with a bang. If you want to add Dbol, do it towards the end of the cycle, not at the start.

You don't want to bridge or anything like that. Instead you want to be adding more from start to finish, which is easier to do if you start off with very low doses of everything.

I drew this up so you can see better what I mean:

3XRIdeR.jpg
 
Frontload and kickstart are two words that have the same meaning really mate - starting your cycle with a bang. If you want to add Dbol, do it towards the end of the cycle, not at the start.

You don't want to bridge or anything like that. Instead you want to be adding more from start to finish, which is easier to do if you start off with very low doses of everything.

I drew this up so you can see better what I mean:

3XRIdeR.jpg

Yeah my thinking was that a front load was trying to rapidly increase serum blood concentration because the ester takes a while to kick in, a normal user including myself on the past thinks that it will kick in faster with a double dose at the start. My thinking until I considered it was that a kick-start would differ in that your rapidly increasing levels with a short ester to feels effects quickly while your waiting for the long ester to take effect. So they sort of overlapped each other, more of a transition than an increase then a decline.

I'm taking your advice on the ace, although I do want to continue the dbol to bulk a bit quickly before recomping.
Thanks for your input
 
I thought that frontloading implies the same compound only at higher doses in the beginning, whereas kickstart implies an additional compound(s). Say an oral to help make gains in the weeks before the test kicks in...whereas frontloading just accelerates the build-up of the test. So not interchangeable.
 
^^ Pretty much. The end result is exactly the same thing, hence there's no need to discuss them separately (in the graph I've written AAS concentration - which AAS isn't relevant, they do essentially the same thing). You don't want a kickstart or frontload of any compound or cycle. That would defeat the point, since the sooner you raise your AAS levels, the sooner homeostatic mechanisms kick in to limit your growth.

The ultimate solution would be to raise your AAS and growth factors/training intensity/calorie intake/protein intake precisely in line with the increasing resistance from the body. But we don't really have a way of measuring that (myostatin levels might be one way, but undoubtedly dozens of systems kick in to slow growth).

Also, probably an exponential curve would better replicate the desired increase in AAS concentration than ^^ that drawn above, but the principle is the same regardless.
 
Ya, I get what you're saying. The body puts up a fight when we want to disrupt it, and we need to raise diet levels, volume/intensity levels and AAS levels to outwit the body for a couple months at a time. But there's no exact way to quantify the body's defense, so there's no direct and preside way to design diet/training/steroid cycles around such a hypothetical measure.

I guess the question to pick your brain for educational purposes is if you can think of any specific cases where it would be a good idea to frontload/kickstart?
 
Last edited:
I guess the question to pick your brain for educational purposes is if you can think of any specific cases where it would be a good idea to frontload/kickstart?

Not really. People have argued to me before about blasts or short cycles etc, and that's a good question and something to consider.

So let's say you're an average guy and you want to do a short 4 week tapered 'blast'. Let's also say for argument's sake your weekly test level is a decidedly average 25mg (about 3.5mg/day).

[NB: Bear in mind that to circumvent people talking about half-lives etc etc, all these numbers relate to blood concentrations of AAS - in other words the actual levels your body is working with, and not necessarily the doses you injected]

Now you start a cycle at 100mg week 1 (accounting for bioavailability, ester weight, hormone release and your natural HPTA shutdown - ie minus 25mg test/wk etc).

So week 1 = 400% increase above baseline test. That's fucking enormous! If that hasn't already optimised or begun the process for just about every hormone-related physiological system going for anabolism, then I'll eat my hat. Kids spend a fortune on 'natural' test boosters that boast paltry (but still impressive) 20% increases or whatever.

Now week 2, we taper that up to 200mg. Now we're only talking about a 100% gain. Still fantastic, but not in the same ballpark. Still, the systems optimising from week 1 will still be going full speed ahead, and the body hasn't even contemplated trying to slow this train down yet.

Week 3, 400mg. Now that's another 100% increase - an exponential gain. The body will be trying to slow this shit down now, and probably myostatin is being upregulated and insulin desensitising in response to massively elevated IGF-1 levels and so on. But we're still a long way ahead at the stage.

Week 4, 600mg. The final 50% increase. We want this to be a blast, we don't want grams of AAS in the body, and we don't want it to linger for weeks after this point, so the taper has slowed. The extremely rapid increase in protein synthesis from week 1-3 has probably slowed anyway, and even 800mg wouldn't have overcome it. But still, it was a decent blast and we didn't cause massive physical harm with any huge doses on this protocol.

Now let's take this, and start the blast with a frontload/kickstart (the numbers look the same every week here, but obvs to hit 800mg week 1, you are taking more AAS week 1 due to half-lives etc). Your cycle is only 4 weeks, so you'll not bother with any kind of taper:

So week 1 = 800mg test. A whopping 3200% increase in test levels. Um, does anybody seriously think there will be any qualitative or quantitative improvement in protein synthesis over a still insane 400% increase in test?? Does anybody seriously believe the body has some special adaptive mechanism to accommodate or respond to such an absurd relative increase in circulating androgen levels?

It's just numbers for the sake of it. I guess you'll bloat nicely, put on some lovely water, strain the heart and cardiovascular system more than necessary. But that isn't additional protein synthesis.

Week 2 = 800mg test. You're looking at 0% increase. Your body did not like your 3200% increase in test. It thought you were frankly being poisoned! It's doing everything it can to upregulate every homeostatic system going. Gains appear to be slowing fast, mostly because by the end of week 2/3 your body has slowed adding water weight.

Week 3 = 800mg test. Another 0% increase. Now your body is catching up. Protein synthesis has probably fallen below that on the tapered up blast cycle where test levels are still nicely zooming up 100% per week. You might think you're not gaining any muscle and would be inclined to raise the dose, but that's probably just because no additional water was added this week (whereas protein synthesis was still humming along).

Week 4 = 800mg test. Yep, more 0% increases. You probably only gained a pound or so this week unless you were on a rebound. Homeostasis caught up and protein synthesis dropped to pretty average values. Thus you determine that 800mg was too low of a dose and that for the next blast, you'll double the dose. That's broscience at its finest.

The frontloaded/kickstarted cycle used almost 3x the amount of gear, 3x the cost, 3x the health risks(?), 3x the water bloat(?). But 3x the gains? I highly doubt it.
 
Thanks a ton for typing that out. It's really hard to argue with that when interpreted quantitatively.

So that's for frontloading. What if someone is going to run test + dbol, say, for a second cycle. The argument I have heard is to "place the dbol at the beginning as a kickstart to expand the muscles and improve the leverages so that once the test does kick in, the strength gains, and in turn the muscle building, will be better." Would you instead time the dbol to peak near the same time the test really kicks in?

Feel free to just not answer if these are too many questions, but I respect your thoughts.

Edit: I just realized (when it got bumped) that there is a sticky about frontloading. I will read it sometime soon. Apologies for what had to be covered twice.
 
Last edited:
CFC, what do you think of myostatin inhibitors? Surely the ones sold at the supplement shop in the mall are BS, but I hear of bodybuilders spending big money on such things.
 
I think Bimagrumab has just been approved for use in certain wasting diseases, and is the first genuinely viable myostatin blocker. I've been meaning to write a new post from the published paper for a few months.

If you're able to get your hands on it, then yes, you probably would see some results. I'll base my estimation of how great those results might be by the extent to which Pros suddenly improve over the next 12-24 months.
 
If it were me I would keep it simple. You could actually just stay on the deca if you want, no reason you can't recomp on that compound, but if you're wanting to use the tren..

My favorite compounds in general for everything are Tren, Superdrol, and Mast. I dislike dbol and deca.. I like to stay dry, hard, and lean. Deca messes with my emotions and I don't like the aromitization from dbol.




I'd do test 250mg, possibly more as the cycle comes along.
tren 300mg
SD for 4 weeks but come off 1 week before your trip to give your organs a little break.
Winny I would run alongside the SD for 1 week being the last week of SD, I notice a lot from winny if even only on it 1 week.

I would add in proviron or mast throughout just because it makes any cycle better for me IMO.


That's it. Everyone has differing opinions but that's what I would do. I would adjust the SD dose lower when adding in winny though.
 
Top