• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand

Anti-addictive agents

Could the D2 blocking effect of the antipsychotic mediate its anti-addictive benefits? Or just from lowering the libido in general?

I'm not sure if antipsychotics make great anti-addictive drugs for some substance users because they can worsen withdrawal related side effects like anhedonia (an amphetamine user already has downregulated dopamine receptors and so forth, so an anti-psychotic just blocks them further), but they may help with "behavioral addictions" that are a bit different.

In some sense dopamine gives one the energy and motivation to act on something. So if you put an animal in a cage and give it a lever that it has to press 20 times in order to get a treat after a light comes on, eventually it will learn that the light means that the lever is about to activate and they will start to get a dopamine surge as the light comes on, not just when they actually get the treat. But apparently if you block the rise in dopamine that occurs with the light, the animal doesn't go after the lever very much.

Blocking dopamine receptors in the outer part of the brain, the cortex that deals with impulse control and executive function, may be counterproductive in some cases. But the anecdotal experiences are that oftentimes anti-psychotics are libido killers that reduce compulsions. Once again, this isn't the only possible effect that they can have, and anti-psychotics are all different.
 
For someone to be diagnosed with severe substance use disorder, one of the criteria is experiencing withdrawal.

Can you lend your thoughts on a proper definition for "withdrawal"?

I see some things about withdrawal criteria for specific substances (alcohol withdrawal, marijuana withdrawal).

The "No fap" phenomenon may lend some helpful anecdotal reports here; a common report is that sexual cravings increase with abstinence and are relieved with orgasm, while cravings tend to decrease if abstinence is maintained long term.

Do we label the increased sexual cravings with sexual abstinence "sexual withdrawal"? I bet there is probably debate with regard to learned behavior vs. innate behavior.

Although by that same standard we could label hunger "food withdrawal", and if there is a case of somebody who is constantly hungry but does not metabolically/nutritionally require food, it wouldn't make as much sense to diagnose them with food withdrawal compared to "satiety dysfunction".

Maybe some "sex addicts" don't get the normal relief of cravings post-orgasm, like some people with eating disorders may not get a normal long-lasting feeling of satiety.
 
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We are discussing addiction, so if "severe substance use disorder" and addiction are synonymous, then what you should look up is the criteria for severe substance use disorder. That is what I looked up.

That was my point. The other point I made was that those criteria are still not valid.



That is complete and utter BS. Did you actually read the articles. Maybe the issue here is the use of terminology of "overexpression" vs "increased expression" vs "induction of expression"? Those terms are synonomous. "Overexpression" usually refers to expression increased above baseline level due to some experimental manipulation, but in this context it means exactly the same as increased expression. In other words, a study may say "We altered the promoter for gene X so that the gene was overexpressed in the brain." That is just saying that gene expression increased above baseline levels.

Here is the abstract of one:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24259563

"The transcription factor, ΔFosB, is robustly and persistently induced in striatum by several chronic stimuli, such as drugs of abuse, antipsychotic drugs, natural rewards, and stress. However, very few studies have examined the degree of ΔFosB induction in the two striatal medium spiny neuron (MSN) subtypes. We make use of fluorescent reporter BAC transgenic mice to evaluate induction of ΔFosB in dopamine receptor 1 (D1) enriched and dopamine receptor 2 (D2) enriched MSNs in ventral striatum, nucleus accumbens (NAc) shell and core, and in dorsal striatum (dStr) after chronic exposure to several drugs of abuse including cocaine, ethanol, Δ(9)-tetrahydrocannabinol, and opiates; the antipsychotic drug, haloperidol; juvenile enrichment; sucrose drinking; calorie restriction; the serotonin selective reuptake inhibitor antidepressant, fluoxetine; and social defeat stress. Our findings demonstrate that chronic exposure to many stimuli induces ΔFosB in an MSN-subtype selective pattern across all three striatal regions. To explore the circuit-mediated induction of ΔFosB in striatum, we use optogenetics to enhance activity in limbic brain regions that send synaptic inputs to NAc; these regions include the ventral tegmental area and several glutamatergic afferent regions: medial prefrontal cortex, amygdala, and ventral hippocampus. These optogenetic conditions lead to highly distinct patterns of ΔFosB induction in MSN subtypes in NAc core and shell. Together, these findings establish selective patterns of ΔFosB induction in striatal MSN subtypes in response to chronic stimuli and provide novel insight into the circuit-level mechanisms of ΔFosB induction in striatum."


Here is a quote from another one:


"This time-dependent pattern of induction of Fos family proteins in the frontal cortex by acute versus chronic stress is highly similar to that seen in response to other treatments, e.g., chronic electroconvulsive seizures in the frontal cortex (Hope et al., 1994a), or chronic administration of a drug of abuse (Hope et al., 1994b; Moratalla et al., 1996) or antipsychotic drugs (Doucet et al., 1996; Hiroi and Graybiel, 1996; Atkins et al., 1999) in the striatum. In each of these studies, the identification of the 35-37 kDa band as modified isoforms of ΔFosB and the 33 kDa protein as the native form of the protein is based on the following lines of evidence: (1) overexpression of ΔFosB cDNA in cultured cells initially produces the 33 kDa band, which is gradually replaced by the 35-37 kDa band during more prolonged expression (Chen et al., 1997; Alibhai et al., 2004); (2) the 33 kDa and 35-37 kDa bands are both recognized by anti-FosB(N-terminus) antibody and not by anti-FosB(C-terminus) antibody (Hope et al., 1994b; Chen et al., 1995, 1997); and (3) both the 33 and 35-37 kDa bands are lost in fosB knock-out mice (Hiroi et al., 1997, 1998; Mandelzys et al., 1997). The nature of the modifications that convert the 33 kDa band to the 35-37 kDa band has remained unknown, but recent evidence suggests that phosphorylation of the protein is involved (Ulery and Nestler, 2004).

The effects of acute and chronic stress on levels of Fos family proteins in the frontal cortex were mirrored in certain other brain regions. The most dramatic of these regions was the NAc, where induction of c-Fos, FosB, and Fra-1/2 after acute stress, their desensitization after chronic stress, and the unique induction of the 35-37 kDa isoforms of ΔFosB after chronic stress were as prominent as those seen in the frontal cortex (Fig. 1C). Qualitatively similar results were obtained for the lateral septum, dorsal striatum, amygdala, and locus ceruleus, although the magnitude of induction of the various proteins after acute and chronic stress was generally not as large as that seen in the frontal cortex and NAc (data not shown). In contrast, no induction of ΔFosB (or any other Fos family protein) was apparent after chronic stress in other regions analyzed, which included the hippocampus, parietal cortex, and ventral tegmental area (data not shown).

We next analyzed the time course by which repeated restraint stress caused the induction of the 35-37 kDa ΔFosB isoforms. As mentioned earlier, no induction was seen 24 hr after a single period of restraint, but the effect became near-maximal after 5 d of daily restraint stress. No additional induction was seen after 10 d of daily restraint stress. This was true in all regions analyzed, e.g., in the frontal cortex, NAc, lateral septum, and dorsal striatum (Fig. 1D). Moreover, in each of these regions, levels of the ΔFosB isoforms remained significantly elevated 1 week after the last stress treatment, consistent with the highly stable nature of these isoforms (Fig. 1E).

A different form of chronic stress, chronic unpredictable stress, also led to the accumulation of the 35-37 kDa isoforms of ΔFosB in the same brain regions affected by chronic restraint stress. In fact, the magnitude of ΔFosB induction tended to be greater with chronic unpredictable stress (Fig. 1F), perhaps because rats show less habituation to this form of stress (where the individual stresses vary from day to day) compared with restraint stress (Ortiz et al., 1996)."


Here is the abstract of another paper:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15564575

"Acute and chronic stress differentially regulate immediate-early gene (IEG) expression in the brain. Although acute stress induces c-Fos and FosB, repeated exposure to stress desensitizes the c-Fos response, but FosB-like immunoreactivity remains high. Several other treatments differentially regulate IEG expression in a similar manner after acute versus chronic exposure. The form of FosB that persists after these chronic treatments has been identified as DeltaFosB, a splice variant of the fosB gene. This study was designed to determine whether the FosB form induced after chronic stress is also DeltaFosB and to map the brain regions and identify the cell populations that exhibit this effect. Western blotting, using an antibody that recognizes all Fos family members, revealed that acute restraint stress caused robust induction of c-Fos and full-length FosB, as well as a small induction of DeltaFosB, in the frontal cortex (fCTX) and nucleus accumbens (NAc). The induction of c-Fos (and to some extent full-length FosB) was desensitized after 10 d of restraint stress, at which point levels of DeltaFosB were high. A similar pattern was observed after chronic unpredictable stress. By use of immunohistochemistry, we found that chronic restraint stress induced DeltaFosB expression predominantly in the fCTX, NAc, and basolateral amygdala, with lower levels of induction seen elsewhere. These findings establish that chronic stress induces DeltaFosB in several discrete regions of the brain. Such induction could contribute to the long-term effects of stress"

I have certainly read the reviews. You are misunderstanding what they mean in that quote. Addiction is dependent on plasticity in accumbens, and so long-lasting changes in plasticity following ΔFosB expression increases are going to play an important role in the remodelling of striatal citcuits in addiction. But that doesn't mean that the only type of accumbens plasticity (and increase of ΔFosB expression) occurs in addiction. There are plenty of other situations, such as chronic stress, that cause significant plasticity in accumbens. And in those situations, the above quote might also be valid (eg, it might be equally valid to write that the ΔFosB expression change in accumbens might be necessary and sufficient for many changes in the brain brought by chronic stress exposure).

If what you were claiming is true, then studies need to not only show that ΔFosB expression increases are necessary and sufficient for compulsive drug use, but also to show that such changes are EXCLUSIVE to compulsive drug use. And that last criteria is something that is not actually true. The striatum, including NACC, is involved in the development of habitual behavioral patterns, so any time their is habit formation there is going to be striatal plasticity and increased IEG expression.

This entire wall of text is a massive straw man based upon your retarded interpretation of the word "overexpression". "Overexpression" does not simply mean "increased expression". Read a fucking dictionary. Here's another. And here's the OED: "The production of abnormally large amounts of a substance which is coded for by a particular gene or group of genes; the appearance in the phenotype to an abnormally high degree of a character or effect attributed to a particular gene."

Moreover, if "increase ΔFosB expression" = overexpression, a single instance of ΔFosB induction = overexpression. In which case, all ΔFosB-induced addiction plasticity would arise in full, not in part, after single overdose.
 
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FWIW, you're really good at arguing against straw men. lol
 
Seppi, the definition of overexpression you quoted ("excessive increase") isn't any different than the definition I suggested. You seem to be suggesting that there is some established criteria for differentiating between an increase over baseline, and overexpression, which is an "excessive increase over baseline". There isn't any difference between the expression levels in those cases -- overexpression just tends to be used in cases where the author wants to emphasize that the increase above normal background levels occurs due to a manipulation, whereas expression increase is usually used when the level changes through a natural cause. If you don't believe that to be the case, then in your view, there should be some objective definition for defferentiating when an expression increase rises to the level of overexpression? Is it a 2-fold increase, a 10-fold increase?

What you don't seem to be getting is that different authors use the terms "expression increase" and "overexpression" interchangably. See for example:

http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v38/n11/full/npp2013130a.html

"ΔFosB is considered a molecular marker for chronic stimulation of reward circuitry, stress-induced neuroplasticity, and sensitization to psychostimulants. ΔFosB, barely detectable immediately after acute stimuli, accumulates to considerable levels after repeated social defeat stress or repeated drug administration and persists due to its stability (Nestler et al, 1999; Nikulina et al, 2008; Perrotti et al, 2004)."

They are using exactly the same language to describe the degree of expression increase induced by chronic stress and chronic drug administration.

You also keep arguing that I am building up a straw man argument, but have you thought about the fact that you might be structuring your posts in a way that makes your arguments unclear? Because I am trying to address what I believe to be key parts of your arguments. This happened with other posts where used nonstandard terminology about efflux. Have you considered the possibility that some people do not differentiate between overexpression and expression increase?
 
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Seppi, the definition of overexpression you quoted ("excessive increase") isn't any different than the definition I suggested. You seem to be suggesting that there is some established criteria for differentiating between an increase over baseline, and overexpression, which is an "excessive increase over baseline". There isn't any difference between the expression levels in those cases -- overexpression just tends to be used in cases where the author wants to emphasize that the increase is above normal background levels.

What you don't seem to be getting is that different authors use the terms "expression increase" and "overexpression" interchangably. See for example:

http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v38/n11/full/npp2013130a.html

"ΔFosB is considered a molecular marker for chronic stimulation of reward circuitry, stress-induced neuroplasticity, and sensitization to psychostimulants. ΔFosB, barely detectable immediately after acute stimuli, accumulates to considerable levels after repeated social defeat stress or repeated drug administration and persists due to its stability (Nestler et al, 1999; Nikulina et al, 2008; Perrotti et al, 2004)."

They are using exactly the same language to describe the degree of expression increase induced by chronic stress and chronic drug administration.

You also keep arguing that I am building up a straw man argument, but have you thought about the fact that you might be structuring your posts in a way that makes your arguments unclear? Because I am trying to address what I believe to be key parts of your arguments. This happened with other posts where used nonstandard terminology about efflux.

An increase in gene expression is not an abnormally and excessively large increase in gene expression unless it's specified as such. The only instances where I've seen something referred to as "overexpression" in a non-viral context is when it's being compared to virus-mediated overexpression.

Stating that there is a persistent stable increase in ΔFosB expression is not the same thing as saying ΔFosB is overexpressed. It simply means ΔFosB has been phosphorylated.

However, the line that you just quoted probably is analogous to overexpression. What I'm curious about is which set(s) of neurons they're referring to.
 
This addiction was escalating from 2014. I first tried to quit in 2013, in the summer, and I actually managed to quit porn very quickly. But in 2014, for the first 4 months of the year, I stayed off porn alot.

I remember masturbating and then getting urges to taste my body fluids and other things as well. I really really want to emphasise that regardless of what you feel about content, I am talking about the same pattern as before: a new behaviour comes in, huge rush and euphoria, will-power becomes useless, and I give into this. It just got worse and more strange, and then from nowhere, I got back into watching transgender porn.

I actually had an urge to visit a transgender escort in 2014 and I remember going online to look at it. But because it conflicted with my sexuality, I realised that I must be swept under the power of a craving, and I managed to click off it. I completely and utterly forgot about this incident for another year until 2015, when I ended up going. I do feel like a complete idiot and cannot believe that this has happened to me. If I new that I was in the grip of something progressive, then I would have immediately done something about it. I am not a fan of 12-step model, but they do say that any "real" addict, is in the grip of a progressive addiction.

Why is it progressing and getting worse? If that can be worked out, then surely it will be possible to think of the a suitable treatment against it. On a neurobiological level, something must be happening...

I spoke to a lady last night who used naltrexone to get sober from alcoholism. She used something called the Sinclair method, which is pharmacological extinction. You take a pill of naltrexone and THEN actually drink alcohol. I imagine that this might not be suitable though for sex addiction? It was great though how I could be totally open and honest about what had happened and she instantly understood that my foray into transgenders was a progression of my addiction, not a one-off exploration of my sexuality (which I would not be complaining about, because it would have been something that I would have chosen).

Another thing. I remember when I was having really strong transgender cravings, I had a few instances, where I would get huge cravings for mephedrone which I used to take. But I haven't taken any drugs for 5 years. This wasn't like remembering the feeling of it, it was like a genuine craving, as if I had insufflated a line of it 30 minutes ago. Could it be some dopamine-imbalance or dysregulation or whatever through the drugs and years of porn abuse? It was very bizarre. I could also feel the "next" thing to com, in the progression of this addiction, which I actually feel embarrassed to say, and is not illegal or harmful to others, but hands down would have landed me in prison and got me ridiculed. I had cravings for that which I have never had before in my life, but the transgender thing over-shadowed it.

I am just sooo desperate now for my treatment, fucking please God!! I anticipate that if my cravings go down, it will actually give me the opportunity to work out my sexuality and all of those issues. How are you supposed to know anything in the face of that level of craving? But as I go about my day and interact with people and look at them, it does take my mind off the addiction for a few rare moments, and in those moments I realise that I do look at women and I never get sexual thoughts about men. So guys and girls, I think this one is clear...I am straight.

I can see your point about gratitude and appreciation. My life three years ago was absolutely fucking incredible. I wish I had the same level of insight at the time. Now I just wish that things can get back there and everything can sort out. I never want to fuck with addictions again.
 
An increase in gene expression is not an abnormally and excessively large increase in gene expression unless it's specified as such.

There really isn't any criteria that exists to define an excessive increase in gene or protein expression. Remember, there isn't even a consistant way to measure expression level because studies don't normally measure the absolute amount of protein present (there isn't an easy way to do that), but rather typically use indirect measures such as immunostaining intensity, western blot, or cell counting. Those are usually comparative methods (ie, this tissue section has a higher level then this other tissue section). It is often impossible to compare those results across studies because of sensitivity differences. Mass-spec methods can be used to detect protein levels directly but are rare.

The only instances where I've seen something referred to as "overexpression" in a non-viral context is when it's being compared to virus-mediated overexpression.

Often, increases induced by non-natural manipulations (e.g., viral constructs, drug administration) are classified as overexpression, whereas increases induced by natural means (stress, sex, etc) are classified as expression increases.

Stating that there is a persistent stable increase in ΔFosB expression is not the same thing as saying ΔFosB is overexpressed. It simply means ΔFosB has been phosphorylated.

See what I wrote above. Usually overexpression is used in the context of an artificial manipulation, whereas increase is usually used for changes induced by natural means.

However, the line that you just quoted probably is analogous to overexpression. What I'm curious about is which set(s) of neurons they're referring to.

Medium spiny neurons (MSNs). Cocaine, ethanol, THC, fluoxetine, and social defeat stress in resilient mice induce expression in D1 MSNs; haloperidol induces expression in D2 MSNs; morphine, heroin, sucrose, calorie restriction and juvenile environmental enrichment induce expression in D1 MSNs and D2 MSNs:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3834048/#!po=54.1322
 
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I was badly addicted to opiates, long-term (10 years), and had actually given up on being able to quit. I did an ibogaine flood dose and it was a miracle cure for me, I've never looked back, over 3 years later and I don't think about opiates at all. I still have an addictive personality in many ways but it helped me to be a lot more aware of that. I still use drugs of some other kinds so I have to watch myself, but it really changed my life a lot. It seems to really work for some people, and not for others. It's a really big undertaking too, most intense experience of my life and it lasted 3 days without redosing (it seems like this is not typical). Basically a week after I first took it, I was withdrawal free except for some really faint lingering stuff that didn't even bother me, with no desire to take opiates, and never experienced PAWS, it was like my life changed in the course of a week and I remembered how to be a strong, confident person.
 
That's fucking awesome. Did you try other methods to try quitting like CBT or working the steps etc? What dose was your ibogaine? Was it ibogaine HCL or total alkaloid?

I just cannot mess with ibogaine right now because of the intensely depersonalised-derealised chronic state that I have been in, plus the amount of trauma that I have gone through in the last few years. I had the thought today though, that how much I would like to go just get my brain re-balanced. I don't deserve it man, god, after giving up drugs, I never in my life thought I could ever get to this kind of level. Okay, as discussed, that with sex addiction it is different to something like opiates where the basic pharmacology is absolutely known, but at the end of the day I had severe cravings and compulsivity. I can't bear it.

Why do you think it works for some and not others?

Hence, that is why I was asking about the synthesis of other ibogaine derivatives which do not produce hallucinogenic effects.

I mow everyone has spoken about sexuality etc, but it ain't even about that. Imagine trying to get on with your life and improve your game around women, and then craving sex and homosexual acts with transgenders. When I say "craving", I don't mean thinking about homosexual urges that I have buried all of my life and imaging how great it would be, but I mean like raw fucking craving like the craving and desire to snort more coke after you have been binging on that...or speed (how I remember that).

:|
 
Hence, that is why I was asking about the synthesis of other ibogaine derivatives which do not produce hallucinogenic effects.
:|

It is actually almost certain that 18-MC produces hallucinogenic effects. The goal of synthesizing 18-MC was to develop a version of ibogaine that doesn't produce effects on sigma-2 sites, because those interactions are believed to be the cause of ibogaine-induced tremor and purkinje cell degeneration. But 18-MC retains ibogaine-like kappa affinity:

https://www.google.com/url?q=http:/...ggTMAQ&usg=AFQjCNGm2d17gUF1cCXgjX9IvYROSGHrxg

The kappa receptor (KOR) is likely the primary mechanism for the hallucinogenic effects of ibogaine. Ibogaine has very interesting effects at KOR -- ibogaine and noribogaine are functionally-selective KOR agonists. Usually KOR agonists produce hallucinations and dysphoria; part of the stress response and withdrawal dysphoria is due to release of dynorphin, which activates KOR. The functional selectivity of ibogaine and especially noribogaine may allow them to induce a KOR-mediated hallucinogenic response without inducing dysphoria; furthermore, noribogaine may persistantly suppresses drug withdrawal by occupying KOR for an extended period, which would prevent dynorphin from binding.
 
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That link doesn't work but I swear I read an abstract from one of Stanley Glick's paper saying that it doesn't. Or maybe it said "likely" doesn't. I cannot be sure.

When I took the 0.5 TA, I did not get any hallucinogenic effects but got a very odd scene from my childhood appearing in my head, and it was like I was dreaming but awake. It did make my heart rate go up.

That could well have fucked me up but also I had come off a year of total hell as well. Like I said, I haven't touched any substances for years apart from alcohol which I have now given up, but I would have been able to handle ibogaine if I did it 3 years ago. Who knows if it would have worked, but if it did, then DAMN did I miss out on an opportunity. That's a fucking hard pill to swallow - if id known things were gonna go like this, then I would have got that ibo straight to my door.

Out of interest, has anybody micro-dosed for an addiction on here?
 
That link doesn't work but I swear I read an abstract from one of Stanley Glick's paper saying that it doesn't. Or maybe it said "likely" doesn't. I cannot be sure.

When I took the 0.5 TA, I did not get any hallucinogenic effects but got a very odd scene from my childhood appearing in my head, and it was like I was dreaming but awake. It did make my heart rate go up.

That could well have fucked me up but also I had come off a year of total hell as well. Like I said, I haven't touched any substances for years apart from alcohol which I have now given up, but I would have been able to handle ibogaine if I did it 3 years ago. Who knows if it would have worked, but if it did, then DAMN did I miss out on an opportunity. That's a fucking hard pill to swallow - if id known things were gonna go like this, then I would have got that ibo straight to my door.

Out of interest, has anybody micro-dosed for an addiction on here?
I fixed the link.

Glick has theorized that the hallucinogenic effects are linked to serotonin release, but that obviously isn't a realistic explaination.
 
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Glick thinks that ibogaine/18-MC leads to serotonin release via kappa agonism and/or NMDA antagonism and thus causes hallucinations?

Does naltrexone block the hallucinogenic effects of ibogaine?

Does 18-MC retain NMDA antagonism?
 
Glick thinks that ibogaine/18-MC leads to serotonin release via kappa agonism and/or NMDA antagonism and thus causes hallucinations?

Ibogaine binds directly to SERT; ibogaine could potentially act as a reuptake inhibitor or could induce serotonin efflux. Glick seems to think that the latter action could produce hallucinations. In my mind, SERT interactions cannot explain the hallucinogenic effects because even highly efficacious serotonin releasers do not produce hallucinogenic effects unless they also bind to 5-HT2A receptors.

Does naltrexone block the hallucinogenic effects of ibogaine?

No one has investigated the mechanism. Work is progressing on that front, however, so we might have an answer to that question relatively quickly.

Does 18-MC retain NMDA antagonism?

Apparently it does not bind to NMDA-R.
 
Ibogaine binds, if I read correctly, to a wide variety of sites, it has a really complex binding profile.

That's fucking awesome. Did you try other methods to try quitting like CBT or working the steps etc? What dose was your ibogaine? Was it ibogaine HCL or total alkaloid?

I tried therapy but not specialized like CBT. I did quit for 8 months a few years before and then always wanted to keep doing opiates, and gave in on my birthday (iromnically as a birthday present/reward for myself for doing so well). I tried tapering, I tried a lot of personal stuff, but the problem was I just kept talkming myself into going back there. I also had a bad/abusive relationship I was in (for the entirety of the addiction and even longer than that) which was a big part of why I kept going back. I did ibogaine when I was also 2 months out from us divorcing and her moving out and not being in my life anymore. So once ibogaine basically removed the physical and mental addiction, I no longer had this horribly painful and confusing thing to mask. So it was a variety of factors but ibogaine provided the push to change my life. It also helped me start working out and eating well and I got healthy and started focusing on music again which had been missing the whole time I was with my ex (which was my entire adult life up to that point).

I took the equivalent of 1200mg of ibogaine HCl, except that half of it was the TA extract (half by approximate HCl equivalent, assuming 50% as potent as the HCl). Or, not half actually, I took 950mg of HCl and 500mg of TA, and then 6 days later I took 100mg of HCl and 500mg of TA (which was also really strong, but nowhere near as much as the first dose). I actually wrote the whole story, it's on Erowid and in the TR forum of Bluelight. I don't have anything to compare to since I've only taken ibogaine with the TA extract as part of it, but I believe it is important to the full experience. Most reports of ibogaine report it being very physically rough, and stimulating, and remaining lucid throughout. For me, it felt amazing physically, and my heart rate (measured with a heart monitor at various points by my sitter) never increased. It felt like that feeling where you wake up, but not fully, or you're about to fall asleep, and you're just so warm and it feels so good and relaxed. The other thing was, it lasted for 3 full days, and I was basically having dreams whether awake or asleep the whole time, when I was awake they were overlaying my waking perceptions. But I was never aware I was dreaming, I was always accepting it as reality, even afterwards, it really was just like dreaming, but really vivid. The dreams were pretty crazy too, especially in the follow-up, smaller dose. For that one, I'd close my eyes and immediately start getting brain movies, and then I'd get sucked into them and experience some different place, and then when I'd open my eyes I'd immediately realize I was on ibogaine and in my bed and that I had to pee, for example. Walking was extremely difficult and there were hallucinations overtaking everything with my eyes open, but I knew they were hallucinations, unlike with the flood dose. It definitely felt like a dissociative more than anything else, but very unique.

It is actually almost certain that 18-MC produces hallucinogenic effects. The goal of synthesizing 18-MC was to develop a version of ibogaine that doesn't produce effects on sigma-2 sites, because those interactions are believed to be the cause of ibogaine-induced tremor and purkinje cell degeneration. But 18-MC retains ibogaine-like kappa affinity:

https://www.google.com/url?q=http:/...ggTMAQ&usg=AFQjCNGm2d17gUF1cCXgjX9IvYROSGHrxg

The kappa receptor (KOR) is likely the primary mechanism for the hallucinogenic effects of ibogaine. Ibogaine has very interesting effects at KOR -- ibogaine and noribogaine are functionally-selective KOR agonists. Usually KOR agonists produce hallucinations and dysphoria; part of the stress response and withdrawal dysphoria is due to release of dynorphin, which activates KOR. The functional selectivity of ibogaine and especially noribogaine may allow them to induce a KOR-mediated hallucinogenic response without inducing dysphoria; furthermore, noribogaine may persistantly suppresses drug withdrawal by occupying KOR for an extended period, which would prevent dynorphin from binding.

That's really interesting, I didn't realize they were developing ibogaine analogues.
 
Thanks for the reply.

I can really really relate to talking yourself back into it. In the two years that I tried to quit, up until 2015, my relapse would occur by me talking myself into it, but it was more like there was a separate "voice" inside me called the addictive voice. It was like having a battle with yourself and then the addictive voice would win. But I think it was like 6 weeks after the first and really shocking transgender incident had happened, that I was watching transgender porn and I heard a voice inside of me saying "we could do this for 20 years". That really horrified me, because I couldn't accept that I would go back into this addiction and waste 20 years of my life doing something like that. I had also spent the previous two years militantly trying to quit, so I couldn't make sense of that. It was one of the things that sparked an intensely horrible war within myself, similar to that war that I had experienced before (sober self vs addictive voice), but much, much scarier and fucked up. I actually feel jumpy just thinking about it and writing it out.

Did you do a very small test dose to see if it agreed with you?

Also, if you had managed to quit for 10 months, why did you feel that you had to do ibogaine at that time, in order to quit? It doesn't sound the sort of drug one would casually take.....
 
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I took a test dose of 100mg and then after an hour I took the bulk of the rest, and then 45 minutes after that I took the rest.

I decided on ibogaine because I had been through the cycle of quitting, getting through acute withdrawals, and relapsing so many times. 10 months was just the longest I went. Nothing ever destroyed that addictive thought process, it was always there, and it always pulled me back, and every time it pulled me back I went lower and lower and the addiction was more and more severe. I had gotten to a point where I fully believed I would never get off opiates, and I wanted to die every day. I was thinking of it as a last resort to be honest. I mean I never tried in-patient rehab, but I work at home and my job is crucial to keeping my house and I couldn't do it, I'd have been fired and then had no way to cover my expenses. And even then, maybe I would have just relapsed eventually. But, I can say, after 3 years since then, I am not addicted to opiates anymore, nor was I in the time following ibogaine. I haven't felt in danger of slipping up, it's not a struggle that goes on anymore. And that's what I was hoping for because I had read it doing that for some people.

Basically, my decision to do it was far from casual, I put a lot of thought into it, talked extensively to a friend who had done it, did a lot of research, and prepared myself mentally for weeks before going into it.
 
I can't think of how else to frame my question, but is the trip as "hardcore" as people make it out to be? What kind of preparation do you need to do?
 
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