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  • AADD Moderators: swilow | Vagabond696

Long term heroin & methadone recovery

20ml, is that 1mg/ml?

In Australia it is dosed at 5mg/ml so 20ml would still be a high dose.

Definitely agree you don't want to rush it, 5ml every 3 days seems very fast.

Obviously nobody knows better than you whether you are ready to do the jump or not but it's definitely not something you want to rush.
 
It's common practice in the UK to swap patients from Methadone (usually around 20mls -1mg/1mls ) to subutex. You simply take your last dose of Methadone on the morning then when you start to go into withdrawal (like 24hrs later) you take your first dose of Subutex. I didn't experience any precipitated withdrawals.
 
I dropped 5ml to 15ml was rough but not to rough, had to take 5ml to get to sleep for a while the second night. It's now the 4th day and still taking 15ml. Going to try dropping another 5ml tomorrow see how it goes. I'm lucky cos I'm self employed and saved a bit to have the time off to sort it. Anyone know how bad a complete stop on 2 or 5ml will be and how long. Never been off meth since I started?
 
Hello Lilyeye....just a quick question, why do you feel the nee to abstain from opiates? I know, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that my life is better with opiates. It gives me energy, helps me cope with emotions and see the world as a place of tolerable discontent, rather than a hopeless, decaying shadow of a long forgotten dream.

I need my 'done. I've tried the detox/rehab course many a time. I got clean by force in jail, but when I have the choice I can't be bothered battling the urge to utilize the program.

Plus, it's one of a handful of psychoactives which doesn't have intrinsically negative side-effects. You can take it your whole life and be fine. Plus your quality​ of life is much better...and isn't that what it's really about?

Oh I totally agree on most points. I love opiates and I don't think I'll ever be totally opiate free.. for me I need to be able to say I can have a tickle every year or so otherwise I'd go the total other way. To be honest I love the drugs but the drugs don't love me. So much ruin, so much pain. If I could get them for free, legally, it would be a perfect world. But several psych ward admissions, court sentences, and comas tell me that the stress of living that life was way too much. And it was a long time, and a heavy habit, so you can imagine the ruin caused.
 
I dropped 5ml to 15ml was rough but not to rough, had to take 5ml to get to sleep for a while the second night. It's now the 4th day and still taking 15ml. Going to try dropping another 5ml tomorrow see how it goes. I'm lucky cos I'm self employed and saved a bit to have the time off to sort it. Anyone know how bad a complete stop on 2 or 5ml will be and how long. Never been off meth since I started?


Ok I'm not up with the UK measurements, but basically I found that once you start reducing you feel shite anyway. For me it was better to get it over and done with quicker.

I started by reducing 5mg per fortnight but it was a constant cycle of feeling shit for a week, slowly feeling better and then bang time for next reduction so cycle starts again. So I changed to 5mg per week reduction as I felt it was better to just feel shit and get it over and done with rather than the constant cycle of withdrawal, feeling better, and withdrawal again. My partner was on a much higher dose and he knocked off 10mg per reduction at the higher end of his dose until he got down to 50mg.

Things might be different for you though, as I was in the unfortunate position of having no access to any other meds such as Valium, catapress, etc for the withdrawals.

Once I got down to 15mg I went to 2.5mg reductions per week, and then I jumped off 2mg. That's in Aussie measurements but as stated above, in Australia it is dosed at 5mg/ml.

However I wouldn't start reducing if you're not stable regarding keeping away from it, as I've tried that before and the methadone withdrawals just drive you to use...


Good luck man!
 
Lilyeye I think willy33 meant why don't you just stay on the done, congratulations by the way on successfully getting of the methadone so far I have not been able to do what you have done.

Benjamin everyone is different, I have known some who managed to come of relatively easily after tapering down to very low doses.

I have only had one attempt so far, I reduced down to 17.5mg when I jumped and I was still in pretty bad withdrawl at day 16, this led to me going back on the program.

I had been on for 15 years straight when I tried though, I see you have been on for 7 years so it most likely won't come good to quick man.

The mental aspect of it is so important so if you are motivated to do it you can do it.

Like Lilyeye mentioned it would be helpful to have some valium/diazepam and some catapress/clonidine to ease the symptoms during the first week or two.

Longer term I would concentrate on good nutrition and trying to get as much exercise as possible.

After being on the done for a long time your body will not be producing endorphins or dopamine properly, good nutrition and exercise are the best ways to restore your natural neurotransmitters to balance.
 
Thanks to both of you, it helps a lot reading other people's situation. I think tying to jump off 17.5 was to much lol, I'm worried about a 2ml jump. I have valium ordered so hopefully they'll help. I'm definitely ready to come off it, im 33 not gettig any younger, wasted years on heroin since I was 15 and not going to get another opatunity to have time off work like this again, so hopefully all goes well.
 
Lilyeye I think willy33 meant why don't you just stay on the done, congratulations by the way on successfully getting of the methadone so far I have not been able to do what you have done.

.

(Snipped for brevity)

Oh yeah I see! Yep I would stay on the done forever in a perfect situation, but alas I have removed myself to a place of little smack... which equals a place of little done & to be honest the program here is totally fascist and I can't stand it, for example 2 non consecutive takeaways per week after 12 months (even if you've transferred from interstate) if you do a piss test every 4wkly appointment. Health Dept just simply doesn't allow you to get any benzo scripts (and other meds) whilst on done. Even for withdrawal. It's a long story I couldn't believe how fascist they are. I can elaborate if you're interested. Melbs Done I can do, but here it's totally intolerable!
 
Benjamin I wish you all the best man, if you are really motivated you can surely succeed, do you have a support network around you?
Also man you might find this site helpful, it has heaps of excellent information regarding supplements for opioid withdrawl and for rebalancing your bodies neurotransmitters after long term opioid use, I have found it very helpful for creating a plan for when I try again.

www.opiateaddictionsupport.com


Lilyeye where the heck did you move to, I definitely would be interested in hearing your story.
 
Thanks for the encouragement ?that website is good thanks, lots of info.
And yeah I got loads of support, moved back home for time being, got a decent enough job, non of my friends use gear, an I don't see any of my friends that use, deleted all my numbers lol, it's definitely the most confident I've felt about getting clean.
 
Benjamin I wish you good luck. I am now just into wk 5 of Methadone withdrawal. I jumped off 15mls (my local drug service were suggesting a 30ml jump off so glad I didn't go for that).
It's been a real slog. Still not sleeping without sleeping tablets. Still having days where I can't leave the house. Restless legs. Upset stomach. Still sneezing 8-10 times in a row. Be prepared get some sleepers for the night time if you can-it makes so much difference. And most of all remember that unfortunately this is normal -Don't be put off by everyone who will be intent on telling you that it's just about staying positive it's not its a physiological reality. It's a fucker but it is worth it.
You'll get there.
Best of luck
 
Thanks alot. Really gives you encouragement knowing other people are free of meth. I think soon as your in the right frame of mind and ready to come off it, it make it possible. Did you jump off 15ml meth to nothing? Ie subutex or other sub?
 
Hi Ben
Yes I was encouraged by my local drug service to jump off 30mls (Don't do it!!) Thankfully I had already reduced myself down to 15mls in anticipation (I've done this before). I did a 2wk 'community detox' consisting of 3 days of Subutex & 10 days of Lofexodeine -it was grossly inadequate and too short by about 4 weeks!! I wouldn't recommend it.
Loperamide has helped alot with upset stomach /cramps. Small amounts of Diazepam if you can get it will help to calm your body down and sleeping tablets for night time.
I am back at work now in some capacity although I still can't manage whole days, can't sit still for too long and lacking in energy. It depends what kind of job you have -mine involves alot of desk sitting, meetings and decision making and some days my brain has been too foggy to work!
 
I'm going to jump at 10ml, someone has wrote a brilliant detox plan that helped them, from meth to codine n few other meds, I should be at 10ml in max 2week so hopefully all will go well. I work in construction driving excavators,so not to much stress. Ill post how I get on with the rest of my detox, hopefully be free of all meds for the first time in years, strange lol.
 
Can't say i know many stories of people coming of methadone.

The question is what causes the withdrawals and the sickness of addiction i.e. the anxiety, discomfort and pain that drive us to use. I know people would argue that we're chasing the high but I would argue we're chasing a life free of pain (with a bit of fun thrown in). Its a question of pain relief hence why most people accept the methadone program because it avoids most of the pain that we've suffered when going straight.

As many in aus:drugs will note I have a fairly radical theory on the root cause of addiction i.e the chemicals that cause it and how they are pretty much the same chemicals in play when we're going through "withdrawals" which is a fairly big misnomer in my theory.

See opioids, opiates and pretty much anything that makes it through the blood brain barrier freaks the brain out into activating this thing called TLR4 - Toll Like Receptors (number 4). TLR4 when its turned on makes these toxic chemicals that are responsible for pretty much most of the symptoms you have when you feel sick i.e. headaches, joint pain, muscle/tissue pain, diarrhoea, fevers and so on are all caused by a class of chemicals called proinflammatory cytokines. All of these reactions are the very same that we experience we stop taking heroin/methadone/suboxone/oxy - why because these drugs are activating TLR4 either directly or indirectly. See you have to imagine our body full of opiate receptors. They aren't neccessarily there for opiates but they and the cytokines are battling to bind to them.

So the pain and discomfort of withdrawals is about the absence of opiates which allows these cytokines to flood our body especially the receptors in our brain the Ku an Mu that are responsible for the pain relieving effects we feel from opiates. Its the literal equivalent of pouring acid onto the pleasure centre of our brain.

That is why once I have the funds I plan to buy a drug that disables TLR4 and see if I can get of methadone and stop taking opiates altogether (i have already quit all other drugs). The trials of this drug (already used for other purposes) have shown great results in helping addicts quit taking meth, opiates and even alcohol which in my mind is validation of the theory I've espoused.

So on that note make sure you have a clear program with your doctor about dealing with health issues. Eat healthy (something that I have ignored to my recent peril), and get exercise whilst making sure you find some a new non-drug activity to work on or do that you enjoy.

That said I would suggest you look at trying ibudilast. This is the drug that deactivates TLR4 which due to physical and emotional abuse i believe is malfunctioning (from when you were in the womb and in early childhood).

For further reading - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2783351/ The “Toll” of Opioid-Induced Glial Activation: Improving the Clinical Efficacy of Opioids by Targeting Glia

That is amazing! what an interesting new medicine to investigate, thanks!
 
I second that post above,^^ i will enquire about ibudilast with my quak, thanks.

Hitler juice is evil stuff to withdraw from, uggh i shudder just thinking about it, i have jumped off fairly large doses once or twice in the past, without anything to assist too once,
it has scarred my memory with the pain of it.

I would recommend a very very tapered long term process, yes i would.-This-"good nutrition and exercise are the best ways to restore your natural neurotransmitters to balance."
 
With the death&moan, i have found its fairly easy to go from say 40ml to 20ml, but hard to go from 10ml to 5ml,
if that makes snese, as you drop the % you drop becomes more extreme,
ie 5ml drop from 40 to 35 is 1/8th but 5ml drop from 10-5 is 1/2 of dose.

What im getting at is once you get down to around 20 ml make your reductions only 1 ml from there on down, and space it out widely too,
theres no use putting yourself through all hell and martyring yourself for nothing with a whole load of pain
if you don't have to and will only end up whopping the gear again anyway to deal with it yeah?

The TURTLE wins the RACE in this miserable game of life and death.
 
I Jumped off from 30 mg , did an 8 day taper with suboxone, and it was virtually painless, some insomnia but not too bad
 
Well done-good on you-your free now i sincerely hope-^^

thats the way subs shoud be prescribed-not as a long term solution-

like 2 week tapered only or the like.
 
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