Are religions that use military power instead of moral authority and persuasion to co

[Gnostic Bishop]

Are religions that use military power instead of moral authority and persuasion to convert us, worthy of us?

I was reading of my Gnostic Christian history, --- which grew itself without violence and with moral authority, --- and noted that both Christianity and Islam have both grown themselves through military conquest as compared to moral authority gained by persuasion.

We have had to suffer many Holy Wars, Inquisitions and jihads instead of those religions winning us over by good deeds and a better moral code.

Both Islam and Christianity say they respect Jesus and he said that we would recognize his people by their good deed, not war, so I think that Jesus would condemn both Christianity and especially Islam, given that they are both homophobic and misogynous religions who refuse to grant gays and women full equality. Christianity is slowly moving to equality while Islam is not.

Further, most religious laws have been bested by secular humanist laws, thanks to equality provisions and have already rejected the laws of those immoral Gods and their religions.

Given that violence instead of a better moral code has been used to grow Christianity and Islam, should moral people reject both Islam and Christianity as unfit to convert us to their religions?

Regards
DL

http://bigthink.com/videos/jelani-cobb-on-military-vs-moral-power-2

 

[jammin83]

you strike me as more of a reverse christian than a gnostic but thats just my impression.

which part of the new testament or teachings of Jesus do you think supports military action or promotes violence of any kind?

funny that you think jesus would condemn christianity. you realize that not all who profess to follow christ actually do and many more confess to do things in his name that are merely serving themselves? guess youve changed your views when it comes to condemning jesus at least.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

most of your posts that ive read are filled with bigotry so its a little comical watching you try to establish some sort of moral high ground.

 

[Foreigner]

It's easy to look at historical Christianity that way but you have to also put yourself into the mindset. There are always going to be power hungry people who use the institutions of the day to control society. Whether they use religion, science, or something else is just par for the course for those people.

Beyond that, there are those who genuinely believed they were saving souls by forcefully converting them, and by killing non-believers. When we look at periods like the Burning Times, it's easy to simplify it by saying the powers that be were threatened by alternative thinkers; and that's probably true, but there's also the very real belief that they were doing God's work. So in a twisted way they were trying to do good.

Secularism may have bested theocratic law, but it didn't get rid of violence.

I agree that Jesus would condemn modern Christianity for the most part... but his story is like so many others. The prophet walks the Earth, and those in immediate proximity to him get a transmission and an understanding. Then the prophet dies and those people pass on the transmission in incomplete form, like broken telephone. Some generations later, it has been so watered down that people are merely parroting a doctrine to backup their mundane, unrefined human behaviors. The real issue is that they have an unclear perception of their own consciousness as they externalize these doctrinal practices.

The problem with prophets is that they never stick around. It causes so much upheaval.

 

[jammin83]

It's easy to look at historical Christianity that way but you have to also put yourself into the mindset. There are always going to be power hungry people who use the institutions of the day to control society. Whether they use religion, science, or something else is just par for the course for those people.

Beyond that, there are those who genuinely believed they were saving souls by forcefully converting them, and by killing non-believers. When we look at periods like the Burning Times, it's easy to simplify it by saying the powers that be were threatened by alternative thinkers; and that's probably true, but there's also the very real belief that they were doing God's work. So in a twisted way they were trying to do good.

Secularism may have bested theocratic law, but it didn't get rid of violence.

I agree that Jesus would condemn modern Christianity for the most part...

mostly catholicism and any institution that divides the body of Christ or tries to skew his teachings to promote any sort of agenda, mingles with paganism or that isn't the true gospel. for us believers, hes still alive, and theres even some of crazies that think he communicates with us and reveals the truth to us in ways that are incapable of being perverted by men.

but nice post as usual, and i get where you are coming from, just thought id add my .02.

 

[herbavore]

jammin', you are the Christian I always wanted to meet and talk to. You are a rare bird.

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

you strike me as more of a reverse christian than a gnostic but thats just my impression.

Guilty as charged and proud to follow in the footsteps of moral men.

I keep a bible in the house even though I think this quote quitecorrect.
“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant characterin all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgivingcontrol-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic,homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal,sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
― Richard Dawkins, The GodDelusion

Gnostic Christian know how to read the filth init.

Said of Gnostic Christian versus Christian bible reading practices.

“Both read the Bible day andnight; but you read black where I read white.”
William Blake.

I would take this further and advise you to read any scriptures from asmany POV as is within you. Question everything including yourself.

The bible, if read as a book of wisdom, does have much wisdom although you just have to read it the way Gnostics do and revers a lot of theChristian morals.

Christians call evil good while Gnostic Christians call evil, evil.

I E. Gnostic Christians think that bible God, the demiurge to us, isquite immoral for thinking that torturing King David's baby for 6 days beforefinally killing it is good justice. Gnostic Christians think that evil whileChristians think that a good form of justice.

Which group do you think is right on that issue?

which part of the new testament or teachings of Jesus do you think supports military action or promotes violence of any kind?

I did not indicate there were such but Jesus did say that he did not to bring peace but war.

funny that you think jesus would condemn christianity. you realize that not all who profess to follow christ actually do and many more confess to do things in his name that are merely serving themselves? guess youve changed your views when it comes to condemning jesus at least.

That depends on which Jesus we are talking about. I see more than on. The Roman puppet is not moral, but the more Eastern esoteric mystic is great.

most of your posts that ive read are filled with bigotry so its a little comical watching you try to establish some sort of moral high ground.

Yet you offer no argument to knock my off the moral high ground.

I take it that you cannot and recognize the immorality of the Christian scapegoat riders.

Good for you. Your morals are not completely corrupted.

It's easy to look at historical Christianity that way but you have to also put yourself into the mindset. There are always going to be power hungry people who use the institutions of the day to control society. Whether they use religion, science, or something else is just par for the course for those people.

I agree that there is mostly corruption in religious hierarchies. That is why it is so easy for them to lie about a God that they say they cannot know.

Beyond that, there are those who genuinely believed they were saving souls by forcefully converting them, and by killing non-believers. When we look at periods like the Burning Times, it's easy to simplify it by saying the powers that be were threatened by alternative thinkers; and that's probably true, but there's also the very real belief that they were doing God's work. So in a twisted way they were trying to do good.

Do good by breaking one of the main commandments takes brain dead people or sheeple, I agree.

Secularism may have bested theocratic law, but it didn't get rid of violence.

True but it does not promote it as much as religions. We have to remember that the religious have been the majority forever and are thus the most responsible for our 5,000 years of war.

I agree that Jesus would condemn modern Christianity for the most part...

Sweet.

but his story is like so many others. The prophet walks the Earth, and those in immediate proximity to him get a transmission and an understanding. Then the prophet dies and those people pass on the transmission in incomplete form, like broken telephone.

A true God would find a way to insure his ideology is not lost.

Some generations later, it has been so watered down that people are merely parroting a doctrine to backup their mundane, unrefined human behaviors. The real issue is that they have an unclear perception of their own consciousness as they externalize these doctrinal practices.

The problem with prophets is that they never stick around. It causes so much upheaval.

That is partly why the Jews rejected Jesus. In their tradition, the savior was to live and rule, not die and never return.

Regards
DL

 

[Yourbaker]

^ You bring up the Jewish practice of scapegoat and attach it to christianity. That was done by early Christians to try and connect the message of the kingdom of God, that Jesus was bringing, to the Jewish religion. I think in their excitement to convert their fellow Jews out of the oppressively legalistic religion they tried to show Jesus as the Jewish messiah. (Perhaps he could have been had they not rejected his teaching). This became the whole take of Christianity, somehow instead of focusing on the message it got lost in the already oppressive old texts, Christianity spread around the world as a half Jewish religion. I think Jesus was Jewish by birth but beyond that he wasn't teaching their beliefs. Sadly christianity got stuck in Abrahamic law.

In Christianity the scapegoat symbolizes the last road to self forgiveness. I don't know much about gnostic christianity, i avoid terms that define beliefs where possible. I haven't taken enough time to understand most single word packaged beliefs, spirituality was not a direction I was planning on going with my life, I am completely unable to find much beyond a few truths in each random religion so I use the lose term christianity simply because long ago I used the scapegoat to be able to live with myself.

There are truths in the bible, just not where people like to see them. Understanding Jesus from the scant texts about him is challenging, he can easily be the hero in many religions depending on who writes his story. I don't see magic or mysticism in christianity, a lot seems to come through with the fear based old Jewish texts that got included in the Christian canon. I think if christians, as a whole, realized it's a book written by men about their lives and their beliefs in their time, we could move forward a lot quicker as a race spiritually. The same could be said for all religious institutions but I don't really have authority to speak on anyone's behalf besides my own.

Just my personal opinion, those people left in charge of history controlled writing, reading and made truth how they chose. In the last hundred years humanity has made a break from oppression into clear headed thinking. We don't need to burn the churches anymore, we can just educate and slowly people will wake up.

Truth is where you find it, often not where you look or even the truth you expect. When you do find it sharing isn't really as important as living it.

 

[jammin83]

I did not indicate there were such but Jesus did say that he did not to bring peace but war.

i assume you are talking about this verse:

4Do not assume that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn ‘A man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.…

this verse isn't meant to be taken literally. this about the nature of following Christ. he divides. there will be those that oppose in your efforts to follow Christ even and esp family members. so he is encouraging you to take a stand for what you believe take up your cross (burden) and follow him. its impossible to follow Christ and be a part of the world. it is about being counter cultural.

i apologize if i came across a bit grumpy, these type of sentiments kind of irritate me for a variety of reasons. I have no problems with valid criticisms of Christianity but it seems most of your criticism comes from misconceptions and a general lack of understanding about what Christianity actually is.