MDMA Recovery (Stories & Support - 5)

[BlueBull]

This is the fifth version of the MDMA recovery thread. It serves the purpose of bringing together people who suffer from adverse effects after MDMA use to share stories and support each other. Remember that in case you feel really bad and you think there is a real issue, you should not only follow guidance offered on a forum. In cases where the things you're feeling last longer than is considered normal or you feel that there is something seriously wrong you should also consult a medical professional, be it for psychological guidance or physical problems. Seek out their opinion and follow their guidance first and foremost, certainly when it comes to things like medication

Here you will find personal experiences, which are valuable as well because they mostly come from the perspective of the drug users themselves. This can offer certain insights and perhaps help you with recovery

Previous thread here

Last few replies:

I have a question for all, when looking at my reflection in the windows of my house I noticed that I saw a double image in every in every window, now it's back to normal and I see a single image in most of my windows, could this be a sign of my brain and eyes reversing the changes that occurred after MDMA? Opinions?
It's been 5 months btw

Also I couldn't even look at my blinds in my room as they were so trippy, they would constantly breath heavily, while appearing to morph, now it's just Normal. Again is this a sign that my brain is rewriting itself and getting back to normal. If so how is it doing it? Will I get even better and show more improvements?

@HPPDOFF

It sounds like things are coming along nicely, HPPD seems to have weird remittance timelines and that could have a lot to do with the brain switching into different network modes. What I've been told is that the brain's networks are multi-modal, and there might be a mode that we consider "normal" while a particular set of modes might correspond to HPPD symptoms, thus your regular functioning circuits are still there (the visual circuits don't really undergo neuroplastic changes) its just that the brain needs some time to switch back over to them and let go of the old circuitry.

With some medications like Lamotrigine there seems to be extremely rapid remittance of HPPD, while in non-medication HPPD people it seems that drug induced HPPD goes away more slowly but surely.

I guess I just don't really understand mindfulness and particularly on my own. Maybe a guided psychologist would be better but I have had bad luck with them and they all say "You cannot have 0 anxiety" or versions of that which dont jive with me and create frustration. Cause I do believe pre LTC I had 0 anxiety and I don't believe it is an unreasonable expectation or goal to have. I dont even get why they say that which is technically itself negative thinking.

Anyways what exactly is so significant about noticing your senses. That doesnt seem to improve my symptoms despite doing it. Like I can say to myself "oh well thats just a thought it will pass" but it doesn't actually pass in practice.

And I know you said it takes time etc but how come all these studies out there use the 6-8 week time frame. Are they blowing this out of proportion or are they assessing recovery with lower standards than what I have? Are these people not truly recovered from MDD after 6-8 weeks but just marginally better?

Another thing is don't normal people have thoughts which pass without any mindfulness? Is it a lack of mindfulness which CAUSES anxiety or depression? Because sometimes I do feel like this whole philosophy makes me think im doing this to myself.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

I guess I just don't really understand mindfulness and particularly on my own. Maybe a guided psychologist would be better but I have had bad luck with them and they all say "You cannot have 0 anxiety" or versions of that which dont jive with me and create frustration. Cause I do believe pre LTC I had 0 anxiety and I don't believe it is an unreasonable expectation or goal to have. I dont even get why they say that which is technically itself negative thinking.

I think a lot of healthcare practitioners preach treating a disease as best as we can and improving quality of life as best as we can but tend not to think in terms 100% cures and such, and I've heard a lot of talk about "acceptance" both from the healthcare practitioners and adverse effects sufferers as well and there is certainly something to be said for acceptance actually speeding up recovery time, while rumination and despair can slow recovery. Its not like you won't recover slowly but surely either way but not ruminating is probably the most important cognitive factor that we have some control over.

I'm sure a lot of people didn't have anxiety pre-LTC but I think a lot of people tended to over-think and over-analyze, and once you have something negative to over-think about that's going to be pretty different than constantly thinking to yourself "I'm so in love, I can't wait to get home and see my beautiful fiancée in my new fabulous home!".

Its hard to say what exactly is causing the issues but if the adverse effects cause a tendency to ruminate with activation of depression/rumination associated areas, and therapies that focus on those rumination/self-referential areas are successful for MDD, then I'd say its certainly a therapeutic target that we could focus on. Mindfulness is certainly difficult and I think there is good reason as to why some people go on extensive retreats and give up before the 2nd month, but even just a couple sessions of 10 minutes a day guided with the Headspace App or something would be something great to try for a few months.

Anyways what exactly is so significant about noticing your senses. That doesnt seem to improve my symptoms despite doing it. Like I can say to myself "oh well thats just a thought it will pass" but it doesn't actually pass in practice.

I think focusing on the senses like breathing is probably just a means to get your thoughts away from self-referential thinking and rumination or negative mental imagery, and thus your neurophysiology can start to shift away from the depression circuits.

And I know you said it takes time etc but how come all these studies out there use the 6-8 week time frame. Are they blowing this out of proportion or are they assessing recovery with lower standards than what I have? Are these people not truly recovered from MDD after 6-8 weeks but just marginally better?

It may be that the studies are more sensitive to measurements of improvements when averaging a group of people over 6 weeks who are dedicated to practicing and who are attending classes or whatever (these people oftentimes chose to respond to flyers in the first place so there are recruitment factors), but I don't think that the studies are showing complete remission of xyz disease by 6 weeks. Rather it is just very encouraging evidence that you're going to be better off attempting to practice mindfulness for a year rather than attempting to ruminate for a year.

However, I think at some point people tend to have upward spirals and progress happens faster and faster, it can feel like swimming through quicksand at first though.

Another thing is don't normal people have thoughts which pass without any mindfulness? Is it a lack of mindfulness which CAUSES anxiety or depression? Because sometimes I do feel like this whole philosophy makes me think im doing this to myself.

Sure lots of people have lots of thoughts, but I think the key is that they're a different flavor of thought patterns and they might be a bit different in terms of origin in the brain and the effect that they have on the brain when they are long standing compared to "socio-affective self referential" thinking in depression for example.

I definitely don't want you to blame yourself (that's one of the major criticisms of psycho-somatic medicine, the patients feel like its their fault when their mental efforts don't cure their cancer and so forth) but do try to think about the brain in terms of input -> output. The more input that you expose yourself to the more you'll be able to influence your output.

You may certainly do whatever you like, but I would try committing to some sort of mindfulness regimen if I were you. It could be something like "listen to an episode of Headspace in the morning, and one at night. One during the day if there is time", and so forth. And I think everybody is going to learn better in different formats.

If it comes down to not being able stay mindful before the thoughts return, try to remember that that is completely normal, and everybody has to go through that phase. If it comes down to getting frustrated because you're not seeing immediate results, try to realize that the getting frustrated is a sign of imperfect implementation of mindfulness and that it will take some time for mindfulness to start to be more successful and for it to help just like exercise after severe muscle atrophy after a coma. Mindfulness may not be a 100% cure but it can improve your quality of life (as long as its not pissing you off horribly).

Having gone through a class or having seen a therapist/counselor that you don't have some sort of adversarial relationship with might help create a strong memory that helps stick in your mind and remind you to be mindful, and they might also help word things better than me too.

 

[socrilus]

Eh lol I think its just pissing me off horribly lol. Doctor told me to ditch it and put it on the back burner for some time. Even my parents have seen the effect of me coming back from a psychologist appointment and they are like "what the hell--are we paying them to make you worse???"

Not worth it and the doctor just told me you know what ditch all this for some time maybe do therapy later.

I think that therapy and mindfulness are indeed more useful when there isnt a large biological component too. Only problem is beyond some hormone stuff for me I havent been able to determine what is truly causing the abnormal biology and whether like you said before low T is a symptom of neurophysiology.

Maybe if I can get on a proper treatment for the anxiety mindfulness will work better but with all these anxiety attacks (though not panic attacks, those i consider shorter lasting but more intense) its too difficult right now.

I at least don't have DP/DR or I think I don't but im not sure. Dont want to read too much into that.

Id like to get on proper anxiety treatment but I don't know what that would be. SSRIs were disastrous for me though that was in the beginning of my LTC. In fact, I didnt get visual snow/tinnitus from MDMA itself. I was fine in that regard UNTIL I took an SSRI and quit immediately but the visual snow with tinnitus persisted. Doc said extremely rare reaction but points to physiological sensitivities which may be why I ended up with the LTC to begin with.

I didnt know that your response can change over time and whether it being just over a year mark now could mean they will work. But I also have visual snow with tinnitus and dont want to mess with serotonin again and aggravate that.

So I want to find a non serotonin way to treat the anxiety and I only see a few options: Testosterone maybe, Lyrica which seems to have w/d, Mirtazapine but somebody said that aggravated visual snow?,

Oh and also Curcumin I guess which ive yet to try.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

Meh, don't worry about the mindfulness then. Sorry if I seemed like a turd about it

I suppose you could have a second testosterone measurement series and see what it reads and try another endocrinologist accordingly. Exercise is going to raise T too if you're not doing that already but I think I recall that you do exercise?

Amml in particular was the one who had a bad reactions to SSRIs at first and then a really good reaction to, I believe, Venlafaxine later on.

How early on did you try SSRIs, and what drug at what dose for how long? How did you quit as well, any taper or just a sudden stop?

I would really advise against adverse effects sufferers having a sudden cold turkey from SSRIs because I personally think that the deficit of serotonin signaling during the trip and on the comedown may be to blame for a lot of these symptoms, and there would be a mini version of that upon sudden SSRI cessation. From what I can tell, having a slow and careful SSRI taper makes for a much, much better SSRI withdrawal and really minimizes the risk of adverse withdrawal effects.

A lot of the chronic SSRI use withdrawal stories seem to really overlap with the LTC sufferers stories as well, very similar symptoms.

As the serotonin neurons in the cortex can decrease their firing as a homeostatic compensation when first starting SSRIs, there can be some problems there, but I do think there is this possible scenario where one gets through the first few months, spends a year or two on SSRIs, tapers really slowly and retains the benefits. Some people do take SSRIs successfully for many decades however.

Alternatively there are mood stabilizers/anti-epileptics like Depakote that can calm aberrant neural activity and also function as an anti-depressant. These drugs can also reverse epigenetic changes. They are not without risk of side effects of course.

Anti-psychotics are yet still another option, they can help with anxiety at lower doses. They can make you tired and there are side effects at higher doses, but psychiatrists seem to be using the low-moderate dose range to treat various mood disorders. I had a lot of success with Risperidone as far as calming my thoughts, my mindfulness success really started around that time.

 

[socrilus]

Doesnt Risperidone have effects on prolactin and thus potentially effects on T? I think ill avoid it given im either predisposed to low T somehow and dont want to risk lowering it further and Risperidone seems like a quite strong med. I dont think my LTC is bad enough to warrant anti psychotics which just by the name sound like powerful stuff.

And I tried SSRI lexapro 10 mg for 8 weeks. first 2 weeks were a ramp up from from 0,5,7.5,10 then last 2 weeks were taper in reverse. The visual snow and tinnitus happened in the 6 week mark. And I literally got on these asap right after a month of having the LTC when i went to the doctor and complained. Bad idea in retrospect my biology couldve been pretty sensitive then but I didnt know any better and neither did the GP.

And yes I do exercise both cardio and weights. I run on a treadmill to warm up and then hit the weights. But its tough for me to make progress there since I am an ectomorph lol. So im not sure if the weights I can handle are enough to boost T long term. But exercise certainly has been helping.

I think for me activity helps rather than sitting in 1 place doing mindfulness

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

Hmmmmm so the visual snow hit not on the taper but on the titration up part around 6 weeks? I wonder if around that dosage was when your homeostatic systems (autoreceptors) kicked in on whatever relevant visual cells and lowered their firing rate... Everybody seems to react so differently to all meds..

And then of course time line of the LTC does seem to make quite a difference in terms of response to meds but I don't have any real knowledge on that matter aside from it takes MDMA users a couple months to recover normal serotonin reuptake transporter levels and receptors can take a while to recover to normal homeostatic levels.

So maybe inhibiting serotonin reuptake transporters even further with an SSRI right after MDMA has caused hypo expression of serotonin transporters isn't a good mix.

If you're worried about T then both the antipsychotics and mood stabilizers like depakote would be good to avoid, but I do think any exercise you do will help boost it while doing wonders for your brain (and health otherwise) long term. As far as I can tell, treating MDD via various therapies can help recover lowered testosterone levels.

It sounds like you're having more anxiety type issues though, and I will tell you that stress hormones and the neural response that causes that stress hormone release probably lowers testosterone and growth hormone (also important for the brain, among other hormones like estrogens that are very important for the brain), so treating the anxiety sounds like a good way to normalize hormones.

But if low T is contributing to your anxiety then it's still a valid therapeutic target. Maybe a second measurement would provide some more insight. Once you get your measurements you could go post in the performance enhancing drugs forum too and maybe some of the guys like CFC can give you a realistic idea of whether or not it's an issue, as opposed to a doctor saying "Welllll it's below the lower limit on the reference range for your age but I don't think we should treat it just yet" or whatever your doc said

 

[ADubbs]

Maybe try an antidepressive dose of amitriptyline? Less chance of aggravating your HPPD, and often used to help people with tinnitus sleep. I've tried 10mg sporadically a few days here and there and haven't noticed anything negative.

Yeah mirtazapine did effect my visuals maybe but it might have been the normal course of my visuals evolving...I started taking it like 3 weeks in to my LTC. I was taking a low dose though, usually 7.5 mg.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

Hey Adubbs, how are you doing these days?

I second amitriptyline as a good option. It's statistically the most effective antidepressant for depression but it sees use in loads of other conditions.

 

[ADubbs]

My tinnitus and floaters haven't subsided at all....Getting frustrating. In fact now I see way more string type floaters than I used to. Haven't banged or fapped since July 7 2016 either.....Not good for the psyche but I'm paranoid it'll make things so much worse since it what triggered my downward spiral.

 

[socrilus]

Do TCAs have a PSSD like risk or not?

Also Im wondering if anxiety or depression affect stress hormones which then go on to affecting Testosterone and other stuff, then why aren't psychiatrists taking these blood measurements more frequently? What is the hold up? Can generalized anxiety disorder and MDD be treated with Testosterone and/or other anabolic steroids? Like in high cortisol MDD, wouldnt this high cortisol lower Testosterone?

Is this stuff in the near future of mental health treatment at all?

I mean I suppose you can say it could be masking the root cause but can't the same be said for SSRIs (or other antidepressants) as well?

At the same time, if its effective though, then does it matter whether its masking as long as you feel better and are able to live your normal life?

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

TCAs do carry risk of sexual side effects, including PSSD. I think it would probably be less than usual in TCAs compared to SSRIs but I'm not sure. Supposedly the sexual side effects are probably mediated by activation of the 5-HT2A receptor which amitriptyline blocks.

Busprione would be one to consider, its used in anxiety and I don't think it has risk of sexual side effects like that seen with SSRIs, and I've heard it has some use in countering the sexual side effects of SSRIs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buspirone

But Busprione is rather unique and its anybody's guess how somebody with adverse effects after E would do on it. Unexplored territory as usual. The options I see are SSRIs, SNRIs, TCAs, and Busprione.


I'm really not sure how hormone replacement therapy jives with mental illness, I know HRT can cause insomnia for example and there is after all roid rage. I wouldn't be surprised if HRT plus side effects of HRT can worsen some mental illness. However, you may be able to get a realistic idea of things and if HRT has a real role to play in treating mental illness by talking to the guys over in performance enhancing drugs, CFC and Genetic Freak in particular I think.

I think there are some considerations when it comes to a notion like "SSRIs only mask the symptoms of a disease", which is a notion often rattled off by Friday night bar philosophers. SSRIs are actually reversing the biology of MDD by causing genetic and real structural changes to the brain. Reversing atrophy of the hippocampus that you can see with severe chronic MDD for example.

I believe they are investigating estrogens with some promise for treating traumatic brain injury.

In many of these treatments, people aren't receiving benefits from the acute action of the drug. The real benefits that outlast the drug itself (once its tapered off) are due to real, solid changes. Amphetamine on the other hand will just provide a temporary mood boost by acutely altering physiology, while most other meds on the other hand take a few weeks to a few months to work because their beneficial effects aren't due to just altering neurotransmission acutely. Buspirone for example is supposed to take several weeks to start to work.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

My tinnitus and floaters haven't subsided at all....Getting frustrating. In fact now I see way more string type floaters than I used to. Haven't banged or fapped since July 7 2016 either.....Not good for the psyche but I'm paranoid it'll make things so much worse since it what triggered my downward spiral.

Make sure you're not getting worked up over the floaters that are genuinely something in the eye like this

Also, I do wonder if no fap is actually doing you any good, especially if it keeps you from any chance of getting into a relationship (if that's even a possibility right now).

 

[socrilus]

I have definitely noticed feeling more down after jacking off. Not sure why but this never happened prior to my LTC. It doesn't completely crash me but there really is an effect on my mood.

I wonder if its just because of a sensitive brain and everything where the big release of dopamine brings a down after.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

I would think that the phenomenon involves oxytocin, which plays a role in MDMA's desireable effects and effects post-orgasm for guys. It's normally mediated by serotonin receptors (5-HT1A), maybe these receptors just aren't sensitive/responsive enough or there isn't enough serotonin/oxytocin release or something.

 

[Londonscouser]

could be related to prolactin also ? pretty sure prolactin spikes after ejaculation is reached

 

[ADubbs]

Hi Cotcha, I'm doing OK I guess. I've been basically in the same spot for months....In fact I kinda stopped exercising and my diet isn't as good as it was.....Mostly because I felt it wasn't making a difference at all....Although I've been busy at work, usually I hit the gym during lunch. I'll start it back up.

I'm not depressed, but I do constantly have "mind chatter"....Which effects my sleep, but overall my sleep has been acceptable, but still not nearly as good as before my LTC.

I think your on to something in regards to the oxytocin and serotonin inhibition. I jerked it right after I retriggered all my symptoms from the weed weekend, and that's when shit went waaaay downhill....It's like my mind was in overdrive. In fact that's what this whole LTC feels like....Like my mind and body are in overdrive and hyperactive....Some is psychological but a lot isn't....

A week ago I had a dinner with a lot of garlic and man I couldn't sleep. I took 10 mg of valium...(only taken it twice in 2 months), and it only put me to sleep for 1 hr...Took 20 mg amitriptyline....Woke up 1.5 hr later...Took .1 mg clonodine....Slept 1.5 hr....Keep in mind that I rarely take anything for sleep anymore...So something in the garlic got me worked up...

Thats why I'm so paranoid to get fapping or bangin' again because even simple things like garlic and especially the Kava affect me... Especially the kava holy shit that was terrible I had a full relapse for a few days lol.

Cotcha what are your thoughts on clonodine again? Think it may be beneficial to take for a couple weeks and see how I feel? Looks like it's good for ADHD (which I have traits of and my father has been diagnosed wih Adult ADD), but clonodine also looks to have some evidence for helping HPPD patients. I just worry about the rebound effects....Although the rebound seems better than other psychotropic drug withdrawal.

SSRIs have caused visual snow in some people, so I bet it had some contribution to Socril's situation. They've also made HPPD worse in a lot of Internet reports, but a lot of people also seem to report that they help with anxiety which outweighs the increase in visuals.

Only reason I suggested amitriptyline was because it helps you sleep, and some anecdotal reports online of it curing visual snow patients. A lot of people with tinnitus also seem to take it for sleep.... Again these are just random things I've read on the web.

 

[ADubbs]

Just to the new folks my LTC is way more physical than psychological....Tinnitus....Tons of translucent black floaters mostly in my left eye...Muscle twitching/jerking....Tingling in scalp and face....Things have calmed way down...Except for the floaters/tinnitus and occasionally head tingling.

I had 3 light beers over the course of 5 hours last week and was fine....Then again alcohol has never been a problem....It was the weed that killed me. Of course it's legal in my state now too, although I'm done with weed, it's over rated anyway. I'm almost 31 too....Time to grow up.

Stay strong everyone....It's hard but what about else can we do?

 

[socrilus]

Im scared of anything that has the potential to alter the sexual areas lol.

I have heard of Clonidine and was thinkin about trying it. I know it can cause ED or low libido but does anybody know if there is a "PSSD-like" risk with it? Or is it more like things go back to normal once off the drug?

Id always prefer all other routes to ever attempting SSRIs or serotonergic stuff again. I still dont react well to 5-HTP but I seem to do ok with the more dopaminergic stuff like L-Tyrosine.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

@Adubbs

I would bet that Clonidine withdrawals could be serious if taking more than .1mg for months but I wouldn't expect too much trouble until taking .2-.3mg every day for around 2 weeks or so, those withdrawals would be rather mild I suspect but I think they would get more serious starting around 3 months daily use. Just my guess from my personal experience.

The mind chatter seems to be quite the issue, by definition if you are lost in thought, its hard to realize that you're lost in thought. The key point in treating mind chatter might be focused sessions (10 minutes) of audio guided mindfulness and then sticky-note type reminders placed around the house.

For me personally, establishing a kind of mindfulness cue like every time you stand up or sit down, open a door or close a door, when you enter the shower or enter a car and that sort of stuff, has helped in terms of being able to actually apply mindfulness throughout the day. Eventually it can become a habit and you won't have to think about staying mindful.

I hope you start to feel better soon. At least you're putting more and more time between the present moment and your setbacks.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

SSRIs have caused visual snow in some people, so I bet it had some contribution to Socril's situation. They've also made HPPD worse in a lot of Internet reports, but a lot of people also seem to report that they help with anxiety which outweighs the increase in visuals.

Only reason I suggested amitriptyline was because it helps you sleep, and some anecdotal reports online of it curing visual snow patients. A lot of people with tinnitus also seem to take it for sleep.... Again these are just random things I've read on the web.

I wonder if some of the issues with visual snow setting in on the titrating-up portion of SSRI initiation has to do with titrating too fast (jumping from 5mg to 10mg is a big jump for example). The issue is that the serotonin cells can shut off as a homeostatic compensation at first use of SSRIs, but these homeostatic compensations are desensitized with time and then the serotonin cells firing really increases long term.

The TCA (amitriptyline) theory of action is that the norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor portion of TCAs increases the firing rate of serotonin cells and sensitizes the response to serotonin, so maybe TCAs are a bit safer because they may not have as much of a period where serotonin cell firing decreases (like with pure SSRIs).

But at any rate, let it be known that titrating up or down by doubling doses is a bad idea even though this is common in doctor's instructions, it would be better to go 5mg - 7.5mg - 10mg over many weeks rather than 5mg - 10mg over the same period.