MDMA Recovery (Stories & Support - 5)

[socrilus]

Congrats on the improvement 8bit

@Amml

Are you almost back to normal now?

Its interesting how response to SSRIs seemingly varies based on LTC timeline in addition to individual factors....

 

[8BitTrip]

8BitTrip, don't worry too much now about relapsing emotionally again. I remember especially under stress and too little sleep I often felt empty, but when I relaxed it got way better. I also have some 5-HTP capsules at home for the case that it gets too much, 1 cap is often enough to stabilize me for a few days when I'm under stress and have lack of sleep. Another thing that helps me a lot is exercise. I think exercise and a healthy diet are crucial in recovery, also a satisfying social life like hanging out with friends or going to parties and some hobbies that challenge you mentally (music instruments, science, art, etc.). I still highly promote turmeric/liposomal curcumin, it works great for me as a mood booster.
The response to cannabis and alcohol also turned back to normal like it was before the LTC, which is a good sign for me. If you decide to take drugs again, only in moderate doses, otherwise they can destabilize you.

For insomnia you can try some mild natural products. Valerian root and lavender can calm you down without having side effects.

Thanks for the reassurance. I can relate to this stage; lack of sleep and stress takes its toll me on. For instance, I've just woken up now and I feel pretty good but right before I went to bed I felt quite strained. I might get some 5-HTP again. It did nothing for me at the beginning but perhaps it could be better now. My social life is good enough but I prefer to stay in and read books when I can, which are stimulating and challenging enough for me, without risk of getting overwhelmed as I find can happen in social settings. I'll get some more curcumin on the go too. I'm done with hard drugs for a long time, perhaps indefinitely. I did start smoking as soon as I saw the improvement which isn't helpful so I'm going to get back on track now. Especially after all these tips; much appreciated!

Hey 8Bit, I would try stretching your anterior neck - try youtubing to find stretches for your SCM and anterior scalene. They are notorious for causing jaw pain, headaches and can cause tinnitus. These are muscles that get activated with anxiety and stress.

Hey, Cotcha. This is also what a private physiotherapist told me so you must be right there. Now I've heard it from two sources, I'm convinced. Time to start stretching.

Congrats on the improvement 8bit

@Amml

Are you almost back to normal now?

Its interesting how response to SSRIs seemingly varies based on LTC timeline in addition to individual factors....

Thank you. I know, it's like ADubbs who seems to be highly sensitive to stimulation whereas mine has been relatively stable and resistant to most things.

 

[Amml]

Congrats on the improvement 8bit

@Amml

Are you almost back to normal now?

Its interesting how response to SSRIs seemingly varies based on LTC timeline in addition to individual factors....

Yes, nearly back to baseline. In the most situations I'm feeling normal, only under harder conditions like stress and too little sleep some of the old symptoms come back.

 

[Brain_fog88]

Amml, thanks for the feedback! Gives me hope that normalcy is possible. I was wondering if your total cognitive abilities feel like they were reduced a few orders of magnitude after the use of MDMA.

For me it feels like my critical thinking and ability to conceptualize has diminished greatly. If life or just everyday issues were a puzzle then I used to see how all of the pieces fit together but now it feels like I'm trying to solve the puzzle with missing pieces or I'm looking at the backside of the puzzle. It just doesn't click.

I have an idea why this might be happening but I could be way off base. Let me know what you guys think of this. I wonder if my memory issues were caused whenever the apathy or emptiness started. I feel that how part of our situational memory works is tied to our emotions. Even every day things like putting change in a parking meter cause either a positive or negative emotion however small it may be. Our brains might create a tiny connection to that moment through that bit of emotion which helps with the recall of that action. I am beginning to wonder if our lack of recall or inability to focus stems from the lack of our ability to feel emotions like we used to which disconnects us from our actions throughout the day.

My hope is that if my full range of emotions comes back that I could regain my ability to recall. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated! Also, I want to say that even though I just began posting here I have actually read pretty much most of the discussion starting with the first thread. This community has helped me more than words can describe. Thank you everyone!

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

"I feel that how part of our situational memory works is tied to our emotions. Even every day things like putting change in a parking meter cause either a positive or negative emotion however small it may be. Our brains might create a tiny connection to that moment through that bit of emotion which helps with the recall of that action."

This is essentially "salience", or perceived importance.

There is a large attention-salience component to what we remember - because our brains cannot choose to store every minute detail, it's up to our brain to decide what's important (worth taking up space in the brain) and what is "coin in the parking meter" type stuff.

With messed up attentional processes and messed up salience (not entirely separate of course), the brain won't be as efficient at processing and storing memories.

The other thing to consider is that memories are consolidated into long term memory largely during sleep, and fragmented sleep can take a while to normalize in LTCs.

I personally think mindfulness can help people stay in the moment and help with the attentional component of memory, and can help normalize sleep as well.

 

[Amml]

Amml, thanks for the feedback! Gives me hope that normalcy is possible. I was wondering if your total cognitive abilities feel like they were reduced a few orders of magnitude after the use of MDMA.

For me it feels like my critical thinking and ability to conceptualize has diminished greatly. If life or just everyday issues were a puzzle then I used to see how all of the pieces fit together but now it feels like I'm trying to solve the puzzle with missing pieces or I'm looking at the backside of the puzzle. It just doesn't click.

I have an idea why this might be happening but I could be way off base. Let me know what you guys think of this. I wonder if my memory issues were caused whenever the apathy or emptiness started. I feel that how part of our situational memory works is tied to our emotions. Even every day things like putting change in a parking meter cause either a positive or negative emotion however small it may be. Our brains might create a tiny connection to that moment through that bit of emotion which helps with the recall of that action. I am beginning to wonder if our lack of recall or inability to focus stems from the lack of our ability to feel emotions like we used to which disconnects us from our actions throughout the day.

My hope is that if my full range of emotions comes back that I could regain my ability to recall. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated! Also, I want to say that even though I just began posting here I have actually read pretty much most of the discussion starting with the first thread. This community has helped me more than words can describe. Thank you everyone!

I was thinking the same way about my memory and the ability so solve more complex congnitive tasks in daily life.
What I remember very well is that I had severe problems in finishing daily tasks. For example I made myself a cup of tea, put the teabag in the cup, then took out something off the fridge and boom, I totally forgot making myself a tea. And this happened a few times a day. I found this out because a few hours later I found that empty cup with a teabag inside and then remembered again. That was really annoying and made me feel even worse because it's really not normal.
My favorite activity is working in the chemistry lab. Before my SSRI treatment (during the full depression) this was one of the things that made me more depressed than happy, because I realized how apathetic I have become. Before the LTC I just loved it to bring up new experiments and such things, but when the LTC hit me I lost my whole interest in it and wasn't even able to do simple things there anymore.
For now I would say the ability to think outside the box is nearly restored, I like working there again and I also can use creative (and also critical) thinking again. I can say for sure that recovery happened. After now 1 year and 4 months I would say 90% of the symptoms are gone. I guess you can't say 100% recovery in term of being totally as you were before is possible, just because going through the LTC despite the neurochemical changes is psychological exhausting.
It's a lesson, and you can also learn a lot out of it, I think it's also important to this point.
Maybe you don't get 100% you were before, but that doesn't mean your life after your recovery can't even be a better one.

When I remember the SSRI's actually fixed my memory and emotions. I agree with your theory of the importance of emotions in memory and daily tasks. I believe the major improvement in memory and cognitive function appeared because the ability to feel something came again during the SSRI treatment.

So my advise is healthy eating, sports, social contacts, good sleep and hobbies that challenge you mentally. SSRI's can help really a lot, especially when depression/memory problems and not HPPD are the problems, but they are substances that also cause huge changes in the brain, so they should be used carefully and only until the point where you are able to continue on your own.
E.g. St. John's wort is an alternative to SSRI's, it has not exactly the same effects but causes less side effects and is not that "hard" on the brain.
I still use curcumin as a mood and memory enhancer and to support recovery and occasionally take 5-HTP when I'm under stress.

It's interesting to see that I'm not the only one that was thinking that way

 

[socrilus]

My psychiatrist is still recommending Buspar or Lyrica to control the anxiety. Lyrica I am afraid of cause of the memory and withdrawal effects. Buspar I am afraid of due to any potential negative sexual effects like premature ejaculation. or any low libido/PSSD effects although I read its actually been used to treat PSSD?

I have read it is a 5HT-1A agonist and I want to know if stimulating this receptor can potentially resolve this LTC syndrome cause the doctor said my biology just needs a nudge in the right direction and this could give it that slight nudge.

So im interested in it but still just scared of meds after my experience with SSRIs albeit that was at the beginning of the LTC and if I knew what I knew now I'd have waited rather than knee jerk reaction going to the doctor desperately back then trying to get a pill to solve things.

Also--an interesting post regarding HIGH serotonin vs LOW serotonin. Even too much serotonergic activity can cause anxiety/OCD etc.

https://area1255.blogspot.com/2016/11/the-definite-role-of-serotonin-excess.html

And it says SSRIs work due to downregulation of certain serotonin receptors and effects on other things like allopregnenolone/GABA.

Could it be that MDMA has shifted the balance to having too much serotonin activity and too little GABA/allopregnenolone--particularly given the response to benzos?

 

[ADubbs]

I had 3 light beers over the course of 5 or so hours on Saturday night.....Hasn't been good since. I fektn all Shakey with that adrenalin rush feeling the end of that night.....even with clonodine and zopiclone only slept 3 hours...Same with last night. Hopefully this passes in a week or so.....I was doing pretty good and became weak as a result.....Now I'm paying the price. I had a few beers 2 weeks ago and was fine.....Not sure what tht deal is. Anyone else have a reaction like this?

 

[Amml]

I had 3 light beers over the course of 5 or so hours on Saturday night.....Hasn't been good since. I fektn all Shakey with that adrenalin rush feeling the end of that night.....even with clonodine and zopiclone only slept 3 hours...Same with last night. Hopefully this passes in a week or so.....I was doing pretty good and became weak as a result.....Now I'm paying the price. I had a few beers 2 weeks ago and was fine.....Not sure what tht deal is. Anyone else have a reaction like this?

Is it only with beer or also with distilled alcohol?

 

[ADubbs]

I just had a few beers, coors light too...Nothing heavy. Honestly I thought it would be OK....Kinda sip on em through out the night....But nope.

 

[Amml]

Hm I can drink alcoholic things like wine or distilled alcohol but from beer I mostly get some bad reactions, maybe it's that
I also can eat cooked or fermented grains but from sprouted grains (that are also used in beer production) I get really bad digestion problems.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

Hey, Cotcha. This is also what a private physiotherapist told me so you must be right there. Now I've heard it from two sources, I'm convinced. Time to start stretching

Just to expand, these anterior neck muscles get kicked in with anxiety breathing (they are inhalation muscles that pull up the ribcage to make more room for the lungs) and problems with the scalene muscles are notorious in anxiety disorders, everything from nerve compression by the muscles to headaches.

One thing I would really focus on is learning to breath through the stomach, rather than chest breathing. There are also techniques to release the tissue (fascia) of the neck muscles like myofascial release of the SCM as well if you hit a plateau with the stretching, I've actually done this on myself with success but proceed with caution (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCJ_AAqiXpA)

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

My psychiatrist is still recommending Buspar or Lyrica to control the anxiety. Lyrica I am afraid of cause of the memory and withdrawal effects. Buspar I am afraid of due to any potential negative sexual effects like premature ejaculation. or any low libido/PSSD effects although I read its actually been used to treat PSSD?

I'm not seeing anything about sexual side effects from Busprione, and I'm under the impression that the sexual side effects from SSRIs are actually that it makes it harder to orgasm, and hence SSRIs are used in treating premature ejaculation.

I have read it is a 5HT-1A agonist and I want to know if stimulating this receptor can potentially resolve this LTC syndrome cause the doctor said my biology just needs a nudge in the right direction and this could give it that slight nudge.

So im interested in it but still just scared of meds after my experience with SSRIs albeit that was at the beginning of the LTC and if I knew what I knew now I'd have waited rather than knee jerk reaction going to the doctor desperately back then trying to get a pill to solve things.

Busprione seems like really untested waters, I can't recall anybody here trying it. So as usual, it could go either way :/

Also--an interesting post regarding HIGH serotonin vs LOW serotonin. Even too much serotonergic activity can cause anxiety/OCD etc.

https://area1255.blogspot.com/2016/11/the-definite-role-of-serotonin-excess.html

And it says SSRIs work due to downregulation of certain serotonin receptors and effects on other things like allopregnenolone/GABA.

Could it be that MDMA has shifted the balance to having too much serotonin activity and too little GABA/allopregnenolone--particularly given the response to benzos?

I think its very important to consider that a high serotonin phenotype could be having problems specifically because they had too much serotonin during a developmental stage. So for example, having a short form of the 5-HTTLPR gene is associated with increased risk of adverse effects to MDMA and dietary tryptophan depletion, and the short form is associated with lower expression of the serotonin transporter. This leads to decreased serotonin turnover and increased serotonin signaling at first. Same thing with animal models genetically engineered to hypo-express serotonin transporters.

You would think since SSRIs are used to treat mental illness, that these people/animals with less serotonin reuptake (because they express fewer reuptake transporters) would be more resilient to mental illness, but its really quite the opposite. That's probably because there are compensations to excess serotonin signaling that can occur when the brain is developing (but the brain works very differently as far as homeostatic compensations when the brain is matured).

So the matter isn't clear cut unfortunately. You could have multiple scenarios. For example

1. Increased expression of MAO-A leads to increased serotonin (and other neurotransmitter) breakdown, and when detecting metabolites of serotonin in spinal fluid, it looks like the patients have increased serotonin when they actually just have increased serotonin metabolism (and hence less serotonin in the brain).

2. Patients have increased serotonin in the brain but that's not their actual issue - the actual issue is that they had increased serotonin during a developmental stage, while having more serotonin in the present may not be that bad for them.

The upstream portion of SSRI efficacy is thought to involve desensitization of autoreceptors that control serotonin cell firing (and the downstream, signaling that occurs after serotonin is allowed to increase). 5-HT1A receptors are expressed as both autoreceptors (presynaptic) and heteroreceptors (postsynaptic/downstream). There could be issues with 5-HT1A autoreceptors/heteroreceptors when it comes to these serotonin transporter hypoexpressing phenotypes like the short form of 5-HTTLPR.

The interesting thing is that MDMA and other drugs work very, very differently from ie SSRIs because they completely bypass the autoreceptors (MDMA doesn't depend upon natural serotonin cell firing to release serotonin and cause downstream signaling).

But as far as the different theories of downstream SSRI efficacy, I think the theories like modulation of endogenous neurosteroids and a normalizing effect on cannabinoid CB1 receptors need more investigation. CB1 receptors are actually extremely widespread and fundamental to the brain, and I do think its interesting to note that most LTC people have pretty bad reactions to weed.



I should also just nitpick the article you linked linked, for example this is its first citation http://www.medicaldaily.com/social-...-rethink-ssris-and-other-anxiety-drugs-338608

Essentially it says that too much serotonin has been found in the amygdala of people with anxiety. But serotonin also controls the oscillatory communication between the PFC and amygdala, with people that have a short form of 5-HTTLPR having increased coherence between the mPFC and amygdala.

Serotonin function is thought to differ in the amygdala because the amygdala isn't thought to utilize "non-synaptic volume transmission", essentially meaning that serotonin normally communicates largely by diffusing of out the synapses and binding onto other adjacent synapses/cells. Serotonin reuptake transporters modulate this process.

Serotonin cells in the amygdala are weird when it comes to volume transmission, so it could be that SSRIs could still cause a net decrease in the activity of the amygdala by causing a change in other regions/networks that outweighs whatever influence the SSRIs are directly having on the amygdala.

In other words, its not as simple as "People with anxiety have increased serotonin in the amygdala, SSRIs increase serotonin in the amygdala, therefore SSRIs worsen anxiety" which is what some people may be gleaning from such an article.


The other thing to consider is phasic vs. tonic release of serotonin. For example
"Similar to the theory of dopamine advanced by Grace and colleagues [70, 71], tonic levels of 5-HT may regulate the gain of phasic signaling, with high tonic levels decreasing the effectiveness of phasic release by receptor desensitization and internalization as well as stimulation of autoreceptors on neurons participating in the phasic signal.

~

dysfunctional serotonergic signaling could lead to user anxiety and fear
(high phasic signaling), or relief and calmness (high tonic levels). This suggests that
drugs like MDA and MDMA, which release 5-HT by a mechanism independent of cell
firing and dramatically increase tonic 5-HT, should decrease this hypothesized phasic 5-
HT signal."


Its possible that serotonergic drugs could help normalize issues with phasic vs. tonic signaling.

 

[Brain_fog88]

Woah what a relief! Of course everyone reacts differently to meds but it's comforting to know at least one person with a similar LTC responded well to treatment!

Cotcha, you're doing God's work with these amazingly detailed responses! I'm guessing your memory was never an issue cause you seem have a great answer for everything. I'll try out the mindfulness approach on top of the exercise and nutrition. It's just hard to get started when you don't get that positive feedback from your brain saying this feels good hahaha.

I've been trying my best to stay social and I feel better every time I go out with friends cause I get to feel normal for a bit. Gives me some confidence which I've been lacking.

I've been smoking weed on the regular with no adverse reactions. In fact it's the only time I can take a step back and be reflective and get a feel for how I'm doing as a whole. I've tried LSD once already about 2 months into the LTC and that was also a wonderful moment of clarity but I think it also made me realize I was depressed which then set off the real downward spiral.

I'm thinking about giving it all a break though in hopes that I see more improvement. Thanks again for your guys feedback!

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

Hey Brainfog, hang in there for us.

I would just like to say that for about 2 years I was as dumb as a doughnut lol, I really had a hard time understanding and comprehending basic sentences and I couldn't remember too much either, I'd forget what I was doing all the time. So don't worry! I think a lot of people's intellects get pretty smashed but recover with time. Mine was pretty darn smashed anyways...

I just re-learned how to solve a Rubik's cube today actually. Before the E it was no problem but I forgot afterwards (which could have just happened with time anyways).

Anywho, I wonder how many random things like this would be good for an LTC sufferer, learning how to do a Rubik's cube, learning an instrument and that kind of stuff.

 

[socrilus]

Thanks Cotcha, pretty interesting. Nothing is ever crystal clear or black-and-white in terms of this LTC.

Does/Did the whole "down" feeling following ejaculation problem go away eventually? I can never recall this occuring prior to the LTC. And its difficult to abstain completely from it even with low libido. Its like doing it exhausts my neurotransmitters or something for some time. Im not sure what it is--prolactin perhaps like somebody mentioned before? Is the brain just somehow sensitive to the increase in prolactin (or decreased dopamine, since they are inversely related) following this?

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

I'm not sure if I would pinpoint a single neurotransmitter/neuropeptide for the post-orgasm issues, it could be something to do with an area like the insula or MPOA with complex effects.

The insular cortex is positioned to cause a lot of these issues honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of LTC issues have to do with dysfunction of the insular cortex and linked regions/networks

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insular_cortex The function section might be an interesting read for any nerds out there

 

[ADubbs]

If your dropping acid and smoking lots of pot.....Your not suffering from a real LTC my friend.....Sorry to be blunt. You'd be fucked if you were. Be happy you can do these things without adverse effects!

Cotcha what are your thoughts on this constant tingle on the left side of my face? I've heard that serotonin nerves are directly linked to your face...Or it has something to do with muscle contraction? It's not anxiety like a pins and needles tingling, it feels more like when you put a 9 volt battery on your tongue.... Like an electrical feeling.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

^I personally think there are probably different types of LTCs (for example there seems to be some people with severe sleep issues and other people who don't have sleep issues, lucky them), and I figure that each individual person is going to have different responses to weed/psychedelics while they may still have some of the core LTC symptoms like depression/depersonalization/anxiety.

I personally smoked a lot of weed in the first few years in an attempt to sleep but it was usually for worse. Oftentimes it would stimulate the crap out of me and make me paranoid and that sort of stuff, but I was really slow on that learning curve. It could at least lift the depression for a bit, but then I would eat it later.

In terms of reactions to weed, some people may be different like myself because I was a constant smoker before, during the E use that caused the issues itself, and immediately after, so it wasn't like I hadn't smoked in a month and didn't have tolerance when I did smoke after the adverse effects.


Anywho, as far as the face tingles, broadly speaking it could be irritation/compression of the trigeminal nerve that innervates the face, a phenomenon of the brain loosely tied in with brain zaps in terms of origins, or some combination of the two. The anterior neck muscles like the SCM are known to cause issues there (the muscle inserts right up into the jaw where the trigeminal nerve comes out) so youtubing to find SCM stretches would be a good thing to try. Jaw problems can cause issues with the trigeminal nerve as well.

On the other hand, it could be more to do with the brain regions that deal with sensory info of the face/head received by virtue of the trigeminal nerve or other cranial nerves.

 

[socrilus]

I completely understand this is rumination but I need to vent it out nonetheless

I don't believe I would have ever acquired a mental health issue had it not been for a disturbance, but not damage, in brain chemistry caused by the MDMA as a result of unclear vulnerabilities.

I firmly believe it wouldnt have occured at all.

Where can a psychologist help here where so many symptoms seem to be mediated by the disturbance. For example there isnt any long term conditioning response to work on. What can they do to cure me? And if I followed a strict therapy regimen weekly can I expect to be cured in 6-8 weeks or is this setting myself up for dissapointment?