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    Kratom and opiate combination question 
    #1
    I am newly registered here but have been browsing threads for awhile. Not sure where this topic should land so hoping y'all can help me

    Mainly I am hoping for some insight as to mixing hydro and kratom together. I've read that kratom can actually bring on withdrawal symptoms when taken together, which I want to absolutely avoid. I know taking suboxen with any opiate will send one into hardcore withdrawal, so i worry kratom will be the same but not as bad?

    A little history, I was on about 50mg of hydro and/or oxy a day. I am down to about 20/30 mg of hydro a day, but am waking in the morning with withdrawal symptoms (sweats, sniffles, skin crawling, etc) and in less than a week I will run out of opiate medication completely. A friend of mine suggested I use Kratom for the withdrawals, so i picked up 60 grams last night and am eager to try it. I took 20 mg of hydro about 3 hours ago. Will taking kratom now reverse the effects of the hydro or am I better off waiting to try the Kratom until I am out of medicine completely?
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    #2
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    Kratom has nothing to do with suboxone, it won't push you into precipitated withdrawal. Personally I wouldn't bother with the kratom at the same time as other opiates, wait till your sober, you'll be more likely to feel it
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    #3
    Thank you! I know it doesn't have anything to do with suboxen, I had read mixed things on various forums (not in bluelight). Some things say kratom will potentiate opiates, others say it would bring on similar effects of withdrawal
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    #4
    I have taken kratom with oxy plenty of times. It certainly doesn't bring on withdrawals at all. I have noticed that with large doses of kratom it blocked the effects of the oxy. I would consider it a waste these days to combine them. I guess it could be possible that a low dose of kratom could be nice but I wouldn't do it.
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    #5
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    Keif' Richards's Avatar
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    That primary, effect-producing ingredient in Kratom is called Mitragynine. As far as I'm aware, it's a regular agonist without any especially strange qualities.
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    #6
    Bluelighter RDP89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keif' Richards View Post
    That primary, effect-producing ingredient in Kratom is called Mitragynine. As far as I'm aware, it's a regular agonist without any especially strange qualities.
    Don't foget about 7-hydroxymitragynine. And yeah, they're both u-opioid receptor partial agonists, they don't have near the binding affinity of bupe. You canmix kratom with other opioids, take it right after opioids, and be fine. It won't cause precipitated withdrawals or anything like that.
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    #7
    Bluelighter MDPV_Psychosis's Avatar
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    Sounds like you are tapering the hydro and will run out soon?

    You should be able to use the kratom to either:

    A) Stretch out the your supply of hydrocodone for longer by substituting some kratom each day in place of some hydrocodone

    B) Use the kratom once you run out hydrocodone.

    Either way should work fine. You will have to experiment a bit to find what dose of kratom you need. You've got 60 grams... That's 20 of 3 gram doses, 15 of 4 gram doses or 12 of 5 gram doses, for example. A 3 to 5 gram dose of decent quality kratom may be effective for you considering your opiate tolerance doesn't appear to be that high.
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    #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keif' Richards View Post
    That primary, effect-producing ingredient in Kratom is called Mitragynine. As far as I'm aware, it's a regular agonist without any especially strange qualities.
    Besides being a partial agonist, another quality that you might consider a little odd is that it has pretty significant affinity for the kappa opioid receptor and some affinity for the Delta opioid receptor. Kappa opioid activity isn't huge, but relative to its affinity for the mu opoid receptor, it's probably significant. Kappa opioid receptors can cause dissociative feelings and dysphoria. Salvia's effects are due to kappa opioid receptor agonists.

    Personally, I think think that the kappa opioid activity might be playing a role in why huge doses of kratom are sometimes less pleasant than smaller doses in addition to it producing more analgesia and less euphoria than many opiates and opiate derivatives.

    To answer OPs question, IMO kratom potentiates weak opioids like tramadol but has little to no synergism with stronger opioids like hydrocodone. However, different people have very different opinions on this question, and you'll really just have to try it for yourself. Just be sure to start low with the kratom. There is a learning curve with finding your sweet spot for dosing, and people often start way too high.
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    #9
    So for the past 3 years I have been dealing with sudden onset chronic GI pain in addition to genetic malformations of my lower spine causing constant pain (I used heroin for 10 years for it).

    Anyway, after a long time away from the needle all my pain has taken me back to medications. I have now been referred to pain management as my primary doc refuses to provide pain mgmt any further for fear of DEA.

    Point is, I have extensive experience with hydro and kratom as kratom is what I've mainly used this past year.

    I take bali, about an ounce a day in two separate doses, am and pm. With the damn DEA crusade against prescribing opioids I am finding it nearly impossible in my area to get Tx. If I do, it only last 6 months or so and the doc cuts me off etc
    when I had an active hydro script I would supplement with kratom and this works fine.

    what I personally have found is that kratom alone is better than kratom with hydro as the hydro is often not felt. In fact, after 3 months of no hydro and I didn't feel 25mg, not didn't get high, didn't feel it. So kratom has jacked my tolerance.

    I find that hydro taken approximately 3 hours after kratom (or other way too) sort of kicks it back into gear and picks you back up.

    when they are doses too closely you just simply can't really feel both and I don't find much synergism.

    just my experience.

    But, no, it's not going to cause precipitated WD and Taper plans mentioned above are a good idea.

    If it were me, I would slowly reduce hydrocodone consumption by titration and begin using kratom when withdrawl symptoms presented ie. wait until medication is gone and then use kratom.

    good luck
    Last edited by aspiringchemist; 31-12-2016 at 03:23.
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    #10
    Interestingly, I have found kratom to synergize nicely with traditional opiates ie. morphine and codeine.

    Also, kratom is addicting in its own right, similar to other opioids; perhaps not as physically/clasically but addicting nonetheless. It is quite easy to just get strung out on kratom and it ain't cheap! This is coming from an ex IV opiate addict. Depends on whar your goals are, pain mgmt or catching a nod. No judgement, just something to bare in mind.

    Taking a little DXM (15-45mg) prior to kratom boosts effects nicely imo. And DXM has been shown to reduce opioid withdrawl symptoms (can't find article at the moment) but I believe it was 30mg dxm and 5mg diazepam every 6 hours was shown to significantly reduce heroin withdrawl.

    There are plenty of tutorials out there to aid in detox but I find DXM, benzodiazepines, and gabapentin priceless for opioid withdrawl of any kind. However, you must understand the dosing and take meds appropriately to reduce symptoms, not become intoxicated, as this combination could be harmful.
    Last edited by aspiringchemist; 31-12-2016 at 03:26.
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    #11
    Quote Originally Posted by MDPV_Psychosis View Post
    Sounds like you are tapering the hydro and will run out soon?

    You should be able to use the kratom to either:

    A) Stretch out the your supply of hydrocodone for longer by substituting some kratom each day in place of some hydrocodone

    B) Use the kratom once you run out hydrocodone.

    Either way should work fine. You will have to experiment a bit to find what dose of kratom you need. You've got 60 grams... That's 20 of 3 gram doses, 15 of 4 gram doses or 12 of 5 gram doses, for example. A 3 to 5 gram dose of decent quality kratom may be effective for you considering your opiate tolerance doesn't appear to be that high.
    Thank you so much! I am trying my best to taper, but control is a bitch, lol. I expected to be down to 10/15 mg of hydro by today so when I do run of hydro I won't be miserable, or course I accidentally on purpose took 40 mg last night. But I am thinking I'll wait to try the Kratom until I'm out completely. Even though my tolerance isn't too high, the withdrawals are still a bitch to deal with. Mainly because I don't get sick days from life (single with 3 kids and a full time job) so the first couple days have always been the worst with mantaining functionality.
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    #12
    Quote Originally Posted by aspiringchemist View Post
    Interestingly, I have found kratom to synergize nicely with traditional opiates ie. morphine and codeine.

    Also, kratom is addicting in its own right, similar to other opioids; perhaps not as physically/clasically but addicting nonetheless. It is quite easy to just get strung out on kratom and it ain't cheap! This is coming from an ex IV opiate addict. Depends on whar your goals are, pain mgmt or catching a nod. No judgement, just something to bare in mind.

    Taking a little DXM (15-45mg) prior to kratom boosts effects nicely imo. And DXM has been shown to reduce opioid withdrawl symptoms (can't find article at the moment) but I believe it was 30mg dxm and 5mg diazepam every 6 hours was shown to significantly reduce heroin withdrawl.

    There are plenty of tutorials out there to aid in detox but I find DXM, benzodiazepines, and gabapentin priceless for opioid withdrawl of any kind. However, you must understand the dosing and take meds appropriately to reduce symptoms, not become intoxicated, as this combination could be harmful.
    And i keep seeing people say this about kratom being addicting but when you say addicting do you mean like physical withdrawal symptoms or more mental? I've kicked other hard drugs and never had an issue past a day or two with the exception of opiates. The physcial withdrawals from opiates make it hard to focus and stay out of a bathroom.
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    #13
    Quote Originally Posted by MaryQuite View Post
    And i keep seeing people say this about kratom being addicting but when you say addicting do you mean like physical withdrawal symptoms or more mental? I've kicked other hard drugs and never had an issue past a day or two with the exception of opiates. The physcial withdrawals from opiates make it hard to focus and stay out of a bathroom.
    It's both. IME the psychological addiction to kratom is worse than the physical dependence. I'm sure some will disagree but I find the physical withdrawal symptoms more annoying than anything else....insomnia, chills and night sweats mostly. Although I could see someone who isn't a drug user or been prescribed dependence causing meds in the past having a pretty shitty week if they have been taking large doses daily for any significant period of time and especially if they've been taken it two or more times per day.
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    #14
    Regarding dependence, I find it both physically and mentally addictive; it is a mu receptor agonist after all. I have extensive experience with opiates/oids from Rx to black. I absolutely experience physical withdrawl symptoms, restless legs, coldness, sweats, nausea etc It's not as bad as kicking dope, but it still ain't fun. And the mental aspect is fairly strong as you know just one dose will relive your symptoms. I honestly find it comparable to hydrocodne in terms of relief potential, addiction, and withdrawl symptoms. that's just my opinion.

    If used responsibly as a medicine it can be highly beneficial. Abusing kratom isn't enjoyable as it does have a ceiling effect. I find that redosing is possible around 4 hours after initial dose, and good effects are recieved.

    Regarding administration, there is a plethora of information online. I find toss and wash to be the most practical and produce the strongest effects.

    put some water in your mouth
    dump a few grams of kratom in your mouth
    more water
    swish
    swallow and repeat

    a scale is really necessary if you want to ensure you know your dose.
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    #15
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    Kratom can produce physical and psychological WD issues. IMO it's not bad as long as you keep your doses as low and infrequent as possible
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    #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Slow_Mobius View Post
    Kratom can produce physical and psychological WD issues. IMO it's not bad as long as you keep your doses as low and infrequent as possible
    I'm looking to have the Kratom when I run out of opiates completely, mainly to help with the withdrawal. So I would be using only enough to get through the hectic crazy days i have, lol I am not looking to get off opiates all together though they're becoming harder and harder to obtain. So i suppose if Kratom addiction is similar to the opiate addiction i currently have I'm not too worried, its actually somewhat reassuring as Kratom is a hell of alot easier to get for me
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    #17
    Quote Originally Posted by aspiringchemist View Post
    Regarding dependence, I find it both physically and mentally addictive; it is a mu receptor agonist after all. I have extensive experience with opiates/oids from Rx to black. I absolutely experience physical withdrawl symptoms, restless legs, coldness, sweats, nausea etc It's not as bad as kicking dope, but it still ain't fun. And the mental aspect is fairly strong as you know just one dose will relive your symptoms. I honestly find it comparable to hydrocodne in terms of relief potential, addiction, and withdrawl symptoms. that's just my opinion.

    If used responsibly as a medicine it can be highly beneficial. Abusing kratom isn't enjoyable as it does have a ceiling effect. I find that redosing is possible around 4 hours after initial dose, and good effects are recieved.

    Regarding administration, there is a plethora of information online. I find toss and wash to be the most practical and produce the strongest effects.

    put some water in your mouth
    dump a few grams of kratom in your mouth
    more water
    swish
    swallow and repeat

    a scale is really necessary if you want to ensure you know your dose.
    A scale is a great idea!! I bought powder vs the capsules as I was told that was the way to go. The shop I bought it from suggested parachuting, would this provide as the same?
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    #18
    And as an update, I stumbled across a handleful of hydros, so i haven't had the need to use the Kratom yet.
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    #19
    Man, I'd love to stumble across something today lol
    nice find!

    If it were me (and it has been more times than i can count) I would create a taper plan with all the hydro. On the last day I like to have an AM dose of pills to ease what's about to happen.
    Then I wait as long as possible, like whatever my usual dose schedule is, I try to wait another hour or two and then begin using kratom.
    IMO, I would create a dosing plan for all the kratom as well that slowly tapers you down over a period of time (dependent on the amount of kratom in hand).

    When I did this the first time I found that about 7 grams hit the sweet spot. It's definitely a trial and error sort of thing, and as always, it's best to start low and increase than take too much and get sick.
    I think generally like 1-3 grams is low, 3-5 grams is moderate, and 5 grams and up is on the higher end. With tolerance, it takes me about 10 grams of quality bali to get where I need to be for pain relief.

    What strain of kratom did you purchase? Red bali and generally any red vein will produce the most opioid like effects. Bare in mind that there is serotonergic activity and the come up can be quite stimulating, not dissimilar from tramadol, but smooths out after a bit. I personally find DXM on therapeutic doses improves kratom but can be over stimulating as well.
    But kratom definitely carries the potential to make you pretty sick, especially when you begin combining other drugs with it. As always, know your body and be safe. IMO kratom is not about getting a buzz but about improving health, both physical and mental.
    I've taken too much on many occasions (mostly early in use during experimentation) and it is not fun. Inability to focus eyes, dizzy, overly stimulated, anxiety, increase heart rate, usually ended up puking all the powder out but it had been long enough to absorb the compounds. Kratom is on the verge of scheduling in the US. Safe use is essential if we are to continue having access to this medicine.
    Regarding ROA, sure parachuting will work. It's just a lot of powder and a hassle. T&W is foul but it gets easier with practice. I've found tea to work nicely as well but have not attempted any other ROA.

    Do you have any other medications are your disposal to use during detox?
    Last edited by aspiringchemist; 01-01-2017 at 19:26.
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    #20
    Thanks! You've been a huge help, and I just got lucky stumbling across the hydro the other day, lol

    I have some Xanax and immodium which I have used in the past during withdrawal but it doesn't help much. The Xanax just makes me more tired and less productive
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    #21
    How's it going?
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    #22
    I will be trying the kratom tomorrow, at least that's the plan. Small amounts of hydro have fell into my lap the last several days so the tapering has been extended. But I will be out of opiates tomorrow. I am nervous though since I have to work tomorrow and am hoping the kratom doesn't affect me to horribly. Work and being taxi driver to all the kids means I can't really afford to be sick
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    #23
    Oh and the strand I have the most of is the maeng da, I do have some Bali too
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    #24
    I may suggest trying kratom tonight and using last hydro dose in the morning. That way you can try the K while you aren't at work just to ensure you handle it well. It can be pretty serotonergic in the first hour, similar to tramadol and definitely gave me some panic attacks in the beginning of use. Now I know it will pass so I don't panic or go stick my fingers down my throat...many times.

    Bali is what I find best to match Rx opioids.
    Are you a pain sufferer or rec user? Just thinking about ongoing management if you are in chronic pain.

    Is this the first time you've kicked?
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    #25
    Whenever I'm facing a WD of kratom or Rx opioids I try to load up on benzodiazepines or gabapentinoids, and dxm is priceless. You can get it at the drug store, just ensure dxm is only ingredient. Google dxm for opioid withdrawl and read a bit of you're interested.
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