MDMA abuse and yet no effects

[Brenthoward]

I have written before about my friends and I.

despite our education and experience, we full on understand we are taking massive amounts of risk.

the concern now is that after a few years of nearly weekly use, we cranked up the doses.

Over the last 4 months an average weekend has us each dropping 600-1200mg per weekend usually double dropping and while there has been diminished effects (the second day requires significantly more M with diminished results) the only minor effect has been the occasional brain zap the day after.

The high is losing some of the empathgenic properties but still very good.

the main concern is this violates chemistry. I'm fine, my friends are fine and we shouldn't be fine at all. While we take exorbitant amounts of antioxidants and vitamin C, arguably we should all be a psychological mess.

Years and years of abuse and recently over abuse and we are all good. this is bad because our goal was to slowly increase usage and see how one of us became effected to document dosages vs diet vs exercise etc.

I do not believe any of us are superior or special in any way which adds to the fact our mental health has not reflected every medical study on the substance.

Sadly since this this was not done with formal approval from the university, for obvious reasons, we cannot use our findings as legitimate scientific reasearch.

Also our study was not as controlled as could be.

 

[Tranced]

I'm fine, my friends are fine and we shouldn't be fine at all. While we take exorbitant amounts of antioxidants and vitamin C, arguably we should all be a psychological mess.

Why?

the main concern is this violates chemistry. I'm fine, my friends are fine and we shouldn't be fine at all. While we take exorbitant amounts of antioxidants and vitamin C, arguably we should all be a psychological mess.

Years and years of abuse and recently over abuse and we are all good. this is bad because our goal was to slowly increase usage and see how one of us became effected to document dosages vs diet vs exercise etc.

I do not believe any of us are superior or special in any way which adds to the fact our mental health has not reflected every medical study on the substance.

What exactly were you expecting to happen? It's certainly common where I come from for people to double drop and take 1+ gram's of MDMA every weekend for years of their life. Some people are fine, some people develop mental health issues (mainly anxiety/depression), some never take it again, some find that they just need to regulate their intake, etc etc.

Years and years of abuse and recently over abuse and we are all good. this is bad because our goal was to slowly increase usage and see how one of us became effected to document dosages vs diet vs exercise etc.

I do not believe any of us are superior or special in any way which adds to the fact our mental health has not reflected every medical study on the substance.

Sadly since this this was not done with formal approval from the university, for obvious reasons, we cannot use our findings as legitimate scientific reasearch.

Also our study was not as controlled as could be.

Are you actually joking? I genuinely appreciate your trolling if so, but if not, then what the fuck are you doing?

You've embarked on an uncontrolled, unlicensed (so ultimately pointless) 'study', which basically amounts to you getting smashed every weekend to see if you can cause yourself some kind of mental/physical damage, and see if what everybody knows can happen, does, or will.

There is plenty of information on here if people want anecdotal evidence on the potential side effects of MDMA. Either way, the side effects tend to vary in their consistency, and at times it is often unclear to what degree they were actually caused by the MDMA, or were simply latent health issues. Either way, they're pretty unanimous in that people wish they hadn't happened.

I'm all for MDMA consumption, but if you, or one of your friends, develops some kind of psychological and/or physical problem, then they're not going to be thinking how proud they are that they contributed to a pointless 'study' which goes completely unnoticed anyway. They're not just going to be objectively happy with the fact that they got a result. They're going to be wondering how, if ever, that they are going to shift this psychological disorder which completely disrupts their life.

There is a difference between taking MDMA recreationally and purposefully trying to cause yourself damage. If you have stable mental health, then cherish it. It can change in an instant, and it is not so easily repaired.

 

[TheDEA.org]

I've heard other, similar cases. Not all brains are created equal; our genetics can strongly affect things like the resilience of our serotonin and dopamine systems, so it's not too surprising that some people can tolerate much heavier patterns of use than others.

Still, this is a bit extreme.

If you want to document this process, the easiest way might be to share with your doctor. If something interesting happens, they could write up a case study for the journals.

The scientist in me is curious what will happen. The rest of me thinks this has gotten out of hand and you should really cut back. MDMA can be a lot of fun, but is there really nothing else you might want to do on the weekend?

 

[Clocktower]

Maybe your MDMA is not as pure as you think it is. Maybe you are not still as healthy as you think you are. In any case you should obviously stop.

 

[Shatners Bassoon]

Have you ever tried Jenkem ? Not to everyone's taste but it does get a bad press...If you do a few bong hits of Jenny then oral dose about 150mg of MDMA your garuanteed to come up I don't know what it is but JK certainly seems to be a facilitator for a lot of stims.

 

[Shatners Bassoon]

If you need any advice on how to cook up Jenkem let me know not all that hard with the right equipment and a certain diet.

 

[TheDEA.org]

Have you ever tried Jenkem

Reminds me of an old TV news report where some kid crushed up a psuedoephedrine tab on the sidewalk, spit on it, poured a little lighter fluid on, stirred it with a stick, and dead-panned to the reporter "that's how you make street meth." I salute the punk for having gotten on the air.

 

[Brenthoward]

Why?
What exactly were you expecting to happen? It's certainly common where I come from for people to double drop and take 1+ gram's of MDMA every weekend for years of their life. Some people are fine, some people develop mental health issues (mainly anxiety/depression), some never take it again, some find that they just need to regulate their intake, etc etc.

none of us started this journey with any intent, other than for the love of the experience. It just happened that as 2 of us work at a university with advanced degrees (one with a pHD), so documenting it for curiosity became an equally enjoyable passtime. When I look back on the last four years it's somewhat entertaining that our lives, for the most part, have revolved around this compound in one way or another.

Regardless, while the human brain and neurochemistry are in the infancy of our understanding, it is widely agreed upon that frequent bombardment of any delicate system (in this case seratonin) will eventually show signs of degredation. No, it's not a rule, but again, four different people albeit with a similar lifestyle etc. have all had virtually no effect. This is 4 years of what most people would agree to be extremely heavy use or abuse.

Are you actually joking? I genuinely appreciate your trolling if so, but if not, then what the fuck are you doing?

You've embarked on an uncontrolled, unlicensed (so ultimately pointless) 'study', which basically amounts to you getting smashed every weekend to see if you can cause yourself some kind of mental/physical damage, and see if what everybody knows can happen, does, or will.

There is plenty of information on here if people want anecdotal evidence on the potential side effects of MDMA. Either way, the side effects tend to vary in their consistency, and at times it is often unclear to what degree they were actually caused by the MDMA, or were simply latent health issues. Either way, they're pretty unanimous in that people wish they hadn't happened.

as much as I enjoy a good trolling this is not one of those times although I could see why it may come across that way.

We didn't get into this as a formal study, the nature of our professions made it that way after the fact. What started off as a once a month enjoyment or journey turned into a weekly event. As a result, knowing full well the potential hazards with unconfirmed evidence as to what causes it added a new layer to all this. We were having fun but also curious as to the effects, damages etc. Yes, we have treated ourselves as lab rats. No that's probably not advisable. We all knew it and chose to do it anyway. We weren't necessarily looking to push the limit until we hit a wall - it just sort of happened. Our scientific minds were curious, so much so that we pushed the line a little bit and a little bit. Each time thinking this will be the time we stepped over an inch and regretted it.

Weeks turned into months and into 4 years. 150mg turned into 200mg into 400mg into recently 1200mg in a weekend. I'm not suggesting this is smart, on the contrary. We all figured we would have hit a wall long long ago and have been shocked otherwise.

While i agree there are a lot of factors in what makes up brain chemistry and resilience etc, I think most of us would agree, and the formal science on studies of MDMA, that taking a lot of it frequently changes brain chemistry and is very taxing on the heart, mind, and body as a whole. Those findings are scientific fact but yet, we feel nothing other than a bit tired the next day.

I'm all for MDMA consumption, but if you, or one of your friends, develops some kind of psychological and/or physical problem, then they're not going to be thinking how proud they are that they contributed to a pointless 'study' which goes completely unnoticed anyway. They're not just going to be objectively happy with the fact that they got a result. They're going to be wondering how, if ever, that they are going to shift this psychological disorder which completely disrupts their life.

There is a difference between taking MDMA recreationally and purposefully trying to cause yourself damage. If you have stable mental health, then cherish it. It can change in an instant, and it is not so easily repaired.

i agree with you on that. The study from a scientific standpoint, would hold very little weight, some perhaps, but definitely wouldn't meet the litmus test for formal studies in this field. We know all too well working in it day to day as a profession.

The drug experience itself is very special but the addictive behaviour of our group has made that need to find out become more important than the experience in some settings. I'm not as compulsive as the other guys but even I want to "know" where is that limit and why.

its classic. The gambler or drug load that says one more deal and Im done. They're never done until they fall.

 

[socrilus]

Everybody is different and has a different reaction to acute mood changes that happen after MDMA.

Are you saying that after taking MDMA you are totally normal the next day such that you have a 100% equal mood to before taking it?

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

Are you taking objective neurocognitive measurements? People are often not subjectively aware of changes. A good example is hemi-neglect with stroke, people can (rarely) neglect one half of their body, shaving and clothing only one half, while not realizing they are doing this. Very often people do not realize how their behavior can drastically changed with SSRI induced emotional blunting until their dosage is lowered or they are tapered, then they realize how different they were acting and that the SSRIs were causing it. Essentially the side effects reduce your ability to detect the side effects.

Seems like it's a very small population size - it's possible that one with vulnerable biology is not included in your group. It would be a negative result, but I would be curious if nobody in your group has a short form of 5-HTTLPR. You could try sequencing through 23andme --> promethase. Although I believe it was people with the long form that performed worse on an n-back inventory (or it might've been overall cognitive performance, I can't remember).

 

[Londonscouser]

Are you taking objective neurocognitive measurements? People are often not subjectively aware of changes. A good example is hemi-neglect with stroke, people can (rarely) neglect one half of their body, shaving and clothing only one half, while not realizing they are doing this. Very often people do not realize how their behavior can drastically changed with SSRI induced emotional blunting until their dosage is lowered or they are tapered, then they realize how different they were acting and that the SSRIs were causing it. Essentially the side effects reduce your ability to detect the side effects.

Seems like it's a very small population size - it's possible that one with vulnerable biology is not included in your group. It would be a negative result, but I would be curious if nobody in your group has a short form of 5-HTTLPR. You could try sequencing through 23andme --> promethase. Although I believe it was people with the long form that performed worse on an n-back inventory (or it might've been overall cognitive performance, I can't remember).

Very good post Cotcha ^ It is quite probable that at least one of your members has been the subject of some sort of memory loss or other cognitive deficit.

I still find it hard to believe that people in that particular research field would bother taking risks that may cause life-long detrimental consequences...

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

Yes, I would think some of the tests like the Affective Go/No Go test that have found abnormalities in ecstasy users processing are much more sensitive than subjectively looking for change. The idea is that even if the effect size of MDMA is small, you could still find it when looking through a large enough population with sensitive tests, and this could add up to societally relevant effects.

It's been acknowledged with neurodegenerative disease like Alzheimer's that the amount of cognitive "reserve" one has is also important - in that sense, people pursuing PhDs are outliers, you may not notice losing a couple IQ points if you're already in the 120-130 range, while an entire generation dipping below 100 could have important ramifications.

 

[Tranced]

none of us started this journey with any intent, other than for the love of the experience. It just happened that as 2 of us work at a university with advanced degrees (one with a pHD), so documenting it for curiosity became an equally enjoyable passtime. When I look back on the last four years it's somewhat entertaining that our lives, for the most part, have revolved around this compound in one way or another.

Regardless, while the human brain and neurochemistry are in the infancy of our understanding, it is widely agreed upon that frequent bombardment of any delicate system (in this case seratonin) will eventually show signs of degredation. No, it's not a rule, but again, four different people albeit with a similar lifestyle etc. have all had virtually no effect. This is 4 years of what most people would agree to be extremely heavy use or abuse.



as much as I enjoy a good trolling this is not one of those times although I could see why it may come across that way.

We didn't get into this as a formal study, the nature of our professions made it that way after the fact. What started off as a once a month enjoyment or journey turned into a weekly event. As a result, knowing full well the potential hazards with unconfirmed evidence as to what causes it added a new layer to all this. We were having fun but also curious as to the effects, damages etc. Yes, we have treated ourselves as lab rats. No that's probably not advisable. We all knew it and chose to do it anyway. We weren't necessarily looking to push the limit until we hit a wall - it just sort of happened. Our scientific minds were curious, so much so that we pushed the line a little bit and a little bit. Each time thinking this will be the time we stepped over an inch and regretted it.

Weeks turned into months and into 4 years. 150mg turned into 200mg into 400mg into recently 1200mg in a weekend. I'm not suggesting this is smart, on the contrary. We all figured we would have hit a wall long long ago and have been shocked otherwise.

While i agree there are a lot of factors in what makes up brain chemistry and resilience etc, I think most of us would agree, and the formal science on studies of MDMA, that taking a lot of it frequently changes brain chemistry and is very taxing on the heart, mind, and body as a whole. Those findings are scientific fact but yet, we feel nothing other than a bit tired the next day.




i agree with you on that. The study from a scientific standpoint, would hold very little weight, some perhaps, but definitely wouldn't meet the litmus test for formal studies in this field. We know all too well working in it day to day as a profession.

The drug experience itself is very special but the addictive behaviour of our group has made that need to find out become more important than the experience in some settings. I'm not as compulsive as the other guys but even I want to "know" where is that limit and why.

its classic. The gambler or drug load that says one more deal and Im done. They're never done until they fall.

I understand the want to document effects etc, and for the record I'm personally 100% comfortable with what many people here would consider excessive use of MDMA, because it's just normal to me. I used it on a fairly regular basis for a good few years of my life, and certainly in the UK electronic music scene it's pretty common for people to 'abuse' it throughout their late teens and twenties. In my experience so far, I'd say that most people seem fine and simply stop when the comedowns get too much or they start experiencing side effects. So to me I don't find your usage really bizarre or unreasonable. To me it's regular behaviour. All that I would say is that you do run the risk of either ruining the experience for yourself, or of course causing unwanted effects of which you would only fully come to understand the scope of regret when it actually happened.

I've always just had a break when I found the comedowns were getting heavy, and these days just use it a few times a year, if that. And that's always kept the experience sweet for me. I'd say that, again from personal experience involving myself and those around me, that it will probably come to a head for you fairly soon for you. Bare in mind that you can savour the experience for your future. I'd hate to think I'd lost MDMA.

I wasn't meaning to come across as a cunt by the way, it's just that in your original post it made it sound like you were actively seeking out some kind of detrimental effects, just so that you could document them, and gave the impression that you were somewhat disappointed that nothing had happened. I just think that it would be dangerous to actively seek detrimental effects to your health, especially when most people would simply consider any report a bunch of "druggies" taking drugs.

Haven't some of the scientific studies been refuted, or came to be considered highly questionable? I could swear they had, although I'm unsure for certain.

Either way, like I say, I'd consider your results thus far fairly expected. IME the commonly held view of MDMA use does not tally up with real life, at all, and could actually make things worse (i.e if people expect readily bad side effects or loss of magic, and particularly if they are sensitive/anxious types, then they could induce them).

 

[Bearlove]

^Tranced - I'm sorry but your banging your head against a (Byker) wall!

People are now programmed to expect problems after having a few pills in a month (500mg) - it's a night out, your "might" feel like shit for a few days. Eat, sleep, hydrate - chill out your not going insane, you do not need medication etc. Chill !

The problem is - The site seems to have adopted the rules - one per three months, one dose and a top up. It makes zero sense and this attitude from my experience is based on this section alone.

Like you say - this simply does not add up. When was the last time you read in the paper/ heard on the news - "serotonin Syndrome'? Thousands of people are taking MDMA each weekend and they have been for 30+ years - if it was as 'toxic' as this section would believe we would know about it by now.

I've had this conversation in this section before - +1g a month / week isn't really that unusual in some parts of the world - nor is double/triple dropping - multi dosing etc.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

Bear - the three month rule could be especially beneficial for people with vulnerable genetics in terms of mental illness and for people who don't want valvular heart disease/cardiac fibrosis in their old age (or if you look at one particular study showing about 30% of young adult MDMA users had valvular heart disease compared to 0% with controls, people who don't want VHD in their young/middle age). I believe the shulgins liked the 3 month rule for cardiac fibrosis related reasons but I could be mistaken. I think it might have also had to do with preserving the magic and avoiding dose escalation, as well as avoiding abusive patterns of use.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I have written before about my friends and I.

despite our education and experience, we full on understand we are taking massive amounts of risk.

the concern now is that after a few years of nearly weekly use, we cranked up the doses.

Over the last 4 months an average weekend has us each dropping 600-1200mg per weekend usually double dropping and while there has been diminished effects (the second day requires significantly more M with diminished results) the only minor effect has been the occasional brain zap the day after.

The high is losing some of the empathgenic properties but still very good.

the main concern is this violates chemistry. I'm fine, my friends are fine and we shouldn't be fine at all. While we take exorbitant amounts of antioxidants and vitamin C, arguably we should all be a psychological mess.

Years and years of abuse and recently over abuse and we are all good. this is bad because our goal was to slowly increase usage and see how one of us became effected to document dosages vs diet vs exercise etc.

I do not believe any of us are superior or special in any way which adds to the fact our mental health has not reflected every medical study on the substance.

Sadly since this this was not done with formal approval from the university, for obvious reasons, we cannot use our findings as legitimate scientific reasearch.

Also our study was not as controlled as could be.

I must admit that I foster a bit of disbelief that you are actually dropping 600-1200 mg each of pure MDMA, weekly. That indicates consumption of 8 to 15 grams each of pure MDMA over the last 4 months -- quite expensive for UNI students.

I would believe that you are consuming that amount of a substituted cathinone, or other research chemical like an APB or APB derivative.

That said I can fully corroborate the FACT that massive ( multiple GRAMS daily ) of Vitamin C in the form of ascorbate salts can completely prevent the deleterious effects of MDXX.

Lets just say that a "test subject" successfully consumed 30-50 mg PER DAY of MDA for 6 consecutive weeks -- without any decrease in effect.

A test subject has also consumed a gram of MDMA over the course of a weekend -- with no hangover/negative effect -- WHEN TAKING THE ASCORBATE

The same test subject consumed approximately 1.5 grams of bk-MDMA over the course of a week, without the massive doses of ascorbate and experienced persistent distortion of the sensorium, mild depression, slight depersonalization for a few days that resolved in 2 days upon consumption of 8 grams daily of ascorbate salts.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Bear - the three month rule could be especially beneficial for people with vulnerable genetics in terms of mental illness and for people who don't want valvular heart disease/cardiac fibrosis in their old age (or if you look at one particular study showing about 30% of young adult MDMA users had valvular heart disease compared to 0% with controls, .

The cited study had 29 subjects. -- Please -- ridiculous when:

MDMA has much less affinity for the 5HT2b receptor than cabergolide which has a fibrosis % low single digits for daily lifetime users

and also that ZERO controls had any type of valvular heart issue (mild or greater valvular regurgitation issues are present in approximately 30% of the general population - even though they dont know)

I call Ricaurte -- on the study

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17950805

Mild regurgitation of either mitral or tricuspid valves is present in 20% of the population for the age in the MDMA study (Table IIa dn IIb of the citation below)

http://www.fac.org.ar/scvc/llave/cardio-l/singh/singhi.htm

 

[Clocktower]

That said I can fully corroborate the FACT that massive ( multiple GRAMS daily ) of Vitamin C in the form of ascorbate salts can completely prevent the deleterious effects of MDXX.

lol

 

[Jabberwocky]

lol

scoff all you want

all i can say is -- try it once -- it can't hurt -- furthermore there is experimental evidence in rodents that it works

[h=1]Ascorbic acid prevents 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA)-induced hydroxyl radical formation and the behavioral and neurochemical consequences of the depletion of brain 5-HT.[/h]
"The concomitant administration of ascorbic acid with the neurotoxic regimen of MDMA prevented the diminished neurochemical and behavioral responses to a subsequent injection of MDMA."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11170222

In other words it prevents tolerance and helps maintain the magic


8-12 grams mixed ascorbate salts -- 1000 mg every hour til dose it met -- day of and day after

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

By pointing out that even normal middle aged people can have VHD I think you're furthering my point to be wary of drug induced VHD...

The controls in the study I linked did not have any abnormal echocardiograms and looking at the range of ages in your study, the youngest bracket is 26-39... I'd hardly call a 39 year old a young adult...

"Mild regurgitation of either mitral or tricuspid valves is present in 20% of the population for the age in the MDMA study" - this could be a big misinterpretation of the data. 9% mild mitral regurgitation, 13% mild tricuspid regurgitation - what, did you add those two figures together assuming that nobody was suffering from both?? The rate of having VHD was possibly far less than 20% of the population.. Also 0% for mild aortic regurgitation... Compare that to the MDMA figures for young adults

"Eight subjects (28%) who took MDMA had abnormal echocardiographic results using the United States Food and Drug Administration's criteria for appetite suppressant-induced valvular heart disease, compared with none in the control group. Six (21%) subjects had mitral regurgitation, compared with none in the control group. Tricuspid regurgitation present in 13 MDMA users (45%) and absent in controls. Four MDMA users (14%) had mild aortic regurgitation. Valvular "strands" were present in 6 MDMA users (21%) and in none of the controls." (P values and regurgitation degree data removed for clarity although who knows how much of a gap there is between mild and moderate dysfunction, maybe the MDMA mild regurgitation leans more towards moderate for all I know).

And I don't exactly feel qualified or motivated enough to dig through the data to determine the degree of regurgitation, although I imagine it is on average worse in the young adult MDMA abusers than the 26-39 bracket. There are also case reports of MDMA induced valvulopathy significant enough to cause severe symptoms, I recall one was severe enough to warrant a trip to the ER for a younger man.

And why are you speaking solely of affinity when intrisincic efficacy at the receptor in question is important? Think psilocybin... Probably not a big deal because it's a partial agonist.