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MDMA abuse and yet no effects

Cotcha Yankinov said:
By pointing out that even normal middle aged people can have VHD I think you're furthering my point to be wary of drug induced VHD...

The controls in the study I linked did not have any abnormal echocardiograms and looking at the range of ages in your study, the youngest bracket is 26-39... I'd hardly call a 39 year old a young adult...

"Mild regurgitation of either mitral or tricuspid valves is present in 20% of the population for the age in the MDMA study" - this could be a big misinterpretation of the data. 9% mild mitral regurgitation, 13% mild tricuspid regurgitation - what, did you add those two figures together assuming that nobody was suffering from both?? The rate of having VHD was possibly far less than 20% of the population.. Also 0% for mild aortic regurgitation... Compare that to the MDMA figures for young adults

"Eight subjects (28%) who took MDMA had abnormal echocardiographic results using the United States Food and Drug Administration's criteria for appetite suppressant-induced valvular heart disease, compared with none in the control group. Six (21%) subjects had mitral regurgitation, compared with none in the control group. Tricuspid regurgitation present in 13 MDMA users (45%) and absent in controls. Four MDMA users (14%) had mild aortic regurgitation. Valvular "strands" were present in 6 MDMA users (21%) and in none of the controls." (P values and regurgitation degree data removed for clarity although who knows how much of a gap there is between mild and moderate dysfunction, maybe the MDMA mild regurgitation leans more towards moderate for all I know).

And I don't exactly feel qualified or motivated enough to dig through the data to determine the degree of regurgitation, although I imagine it is on average worse in the young adult MDMA abusers than the 26-39 bracket. There are also case reports of MDMA induced valvulopathy significant enough to cause severe symptoms, I recall one was severe enough to warrant a trip to the ER for a younger man.

And why are you speaking solely of affinity when intrisincic efficacy at the receptor in question is important? Think psilocybin... Probably not a big deal because it's a partial agonist.
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TWO WORDS -- Nonrepresentative samples

TWO MORE WORDS -- bad science

The fact that ZERO members of the control group have ANY regurgitation means the ENTIRE study is useless because the control group does not represent the general population.

Furthermore, when assessing pharmaceuticals the FDA requires the null hypothesis, namely that use of a drug does not affect anyone any differently than placebo, and also requires that the evidence be overwhelming in regard to effect.

The evidence presented in the study does not support falsifying the null hypothesis with regard to incidence of regurgitation nor fibrosis.

Furthermore no actual evidence of fibrosis was presented, simple echocardiograms without confirmation by biopsy == which is required to actually diagnose valvular fibrosis.

Using echocardiograms of regurgitation, as a surrogate for fibrosis is BAD MEDICINE, publishing a study using the same is a HACK JOB against MDMA -- just like RICAURTE and his meth head monkeys
 
The study you linked doesn't accurately represent the age matched controls of the MDMA VHD study because the youngest bracket in your study is 26-39 years old... And nobody had mild aortic regurgitation while they only had a low incidence of mitral/tricuspid regurgitation.

While it is true that I would have liked to have seen i.e twin studies to rule out the different populations issue, there is empirical evidence that 5-HT2B agonists cause valvulopathy and cardiac fibrosis. There are case reports of MDMA causing this https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3477357/

Read through the histology. This isn't just a bit of regurgitation for some people.

This could be under reported however because a patient reporting that their drug use has lead to heart issues could cause insurance coverage issues. Addicts often don't disclose their drug use.

While some people are completely biased against MDMA, you on the other hand are completely biased for MDMA - there is a middle ground where you can recognize both the potential therapeutic benefits as well as the harms (especially if abused). But I get the feeling that your beliefs are not conforming to the evidence, but rather you are molding the evidence to fit your beliefs, and this has made reasoning with you very difficult...


Also regarding your latest post on Vitamin C being ultra protective against MDMA induced adverse effects and tolerance, if vitamin C is in a study reducing the neurotoxicity of MDMA, and yet you are saying that vitamin C will help one with MDMA tolerance etc., then
you essentially have to default to vitamin C's effect on cortisol to avoid the notion that vitamin C is preventing neurotoxicity and that MDMA use, without vitamin C, has the potential to be neurotoxic. Which in my eyes leaves you with the theory that the adverse effects of MDMA have to do with neuroplastic adaptations to cortisol, even though not everyone will be vulnerable to this (short form 5-HTTLPR confers risk)... Which was my original theory that you thoroughly refused to accept.

(Shugenja)
"You argue neuroplastic adaptations -- and I call BULLSHIT on a BULLHORN You have failed to provide 1 shred of scientific evidence that any neuroplastic adaptation occurs after a single recreational dose of MDMA. If you have such a study == please provide it. I would love to see how they show PROOF of neuroplastic adaptation after 1 use."

Sometimes I feel like you just like to argue and feel like you are correct, instead of actually caring about the truth. You also show a fundamental lack of understanding regarding neuroplasticity...
 
Cotcha Yankinov said:
The study you linked doesn't accurately represent the age matched controls of the MDMA VHD study because the youngest bracket in your study is 26-39 years old... And nobody had mild aortic regurgitation while they only had a low incidence of mitral/tricuspid regurgitation.

While it is true that I would have liked to have seen i.e twin studies to rule out the different populations issue, there is empirical evidence that 5-HT2B agonists cause valvulopathy and cardiac fibrosis. There are case reports of MDMA causing this https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3477357/

Read through the histology. This isn't just a bit of regurgitation for some people.

This could be under reported however because a patient reporting that their drug use has lead to heart issues could cause insurance coverage issues. Addicts often don't disclose their drug use.

While some people are completely biased against MDMA, you on the other hand are completely biased for MDMA - there is a middle ground where you can recognize both the potential therapeutic benefits as well as the harms (especially if abused). But I get the feeling that your beliefs are not conforming to the evidence, but rather you are molding the evidence to fit your beliefs, and this has made reasoning with you very difficult...


Also regarding your latest post on Vitamin C being ultra protective against MDMA induced adverse effects and tolerance, if vitamin C is in a study reducing the neurotoxicity of MDMA, and yet you are saying that vitamin C will help one with MDMA tolerance etc., then
you essentially have to default to vitamin C's effect on cortisol to avoid the notion that vitamin C is preventing neurotoxicity and that MDMA use, without vitamin C, has the potential to be neurotoxic. Which in my eyes leaves you with the theory that the adverse effects of MDMA have to do with neuroplastic adaptations to cortisol, even though not everyone will be vulnerable to this (short form 5-HTTLPR confers risk)... Which was my original theory that you thoroughly refused to accept.

(Shugenja)
"You argue neuroplastic adaptations -- and I call BULLSHIT on a BULLHORN You have failed to provide 1 shred of scientific evidence that any neuroplastic adaptation occurs after a single recreational dose of MDMA. If you have such a study == please provide it. I would love to see how they show PROOF of neuroplastic adaptation after 1 use."

Sometimes I feel like you just like to argue and feel like you are correct, instead of actually caring about the truth. You also show a fundamental lack of understanding regarding neuroplasticity...
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1. NOPE -- i don't have to agree that MDMA in recreational human doses is neurotoxic -- to agree with a study that ASCORBATE abolishes the neurotoxicity of MDMA at NEUROTOXIC DOSES

That's like saying that I have to agree that a 1 minute exposure to sunlight will cause a sunburn if I agree that sunscreen will prevent a sunburn when someone is exposed to 45 minutes of sun at mid-day

2. I don't have to default to any action of C on cortisol -- C prevents oxidative damage caused by MDMA, and prevents the formation of byproducts of glutathione metabolism -- the FACT that it must be co-administered for best effect sort of falsifies your cortisol argument as C is water soluble and you pee it out in a few hours

That vitamin c has a well-documented action regarding the lowering of cortisol, does not mean it's action on cortisol is why it ameliorates the loss of magic, as " loss-of-magic" happens to people that NEVER experience "LTC".


3. Acute hyper-cortisol DOES NOT INDUCE PERSISTENT NEUROPLASTIC CHANGES (or much of an acute change), if it did, we would never recover from any situation that induces a fight or flight response including extreme exercise

4. I have never said that abuse of MDMA is a good thing -- nor that it may cause harm. WHAT I have said -- is that the evidence does not support
a. neurotoxicity of recreational doses
b. that the evidence of [some] neuro-plastic changes after long term use causes negative effects -- in fact , the MDMA users were more well adjusted than the controls and other cohorts
c. an acute neuroplastic change from a single dose or few day binge -- (your case for LTC)


I do believe -- and I have said

a. being e-tarded is not a good idea
b. more than 300 mg of MDMA in a single session is probably not a good idea
c. people with existing mood disorders (known or unknown) are likely to experience advers effects including HPA axis dysregulation and persistent hyperadrenalization


The point being -- while MDMA (or more likely a substiuted cathinone due to the more dopamine/norepinephrine based action) may have instigated the HPA dysregulation -- there is nothing related to the action of MDMA on the body or brain that maintains the state -- it is a feedback loop of emotion -- fight or flight response - adrenalization - ruminating thoughts - emotion -fight/flight --

subchronically elevated cortisol is not due to the action of MDMA -- it is due to the untreated HPA axis dysregulation that -- is caused by the ACUTE STRESS EVENT in suscedptible individuals
 
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shugenja said:
1. NOPE -- i don't have to agree that MDMA in recreational human doses is neurotoxic -- to agree with a study that ASCORBATE abolishes the neurotoxicity of MDMA at NEUROTOXIC DOSES
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You'll note I never said anything about dosages or what species, but if you're saying that the mechanism for reducing neurotoxicity in animals and reducing adverse effects in humans is not the same, well then what is it? I'm willing to presuppose that vitamin C is actually effective at reducing adverse effects.

shugenja said:
2. I don't have to default to any action of C on cortisol -- C prevents oxidative damage caused by MDMA, and prevents the formation of byproducts of glutathione metabolism -- the FACT that it must be co-administered for best effect sort of falsifies your cortisol argument as C is water soluble and you pee it out in a few hours

That vitamin c has a well-documented action regarding the lowering of cortisol, does not mean it's action on cortisol is why it ameliorates the loss of magic, as " loss-of-magic" happens to people that NEVER experience "LTC".
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First you speak of antioxidant properties of vitamin C, and then you seem to disagree with the notion that it's MOA for (very anecdotally in humans) reducing MDMA related adverse effects is due to lowering cortisol, presenting us with what alternative theory? And what are you even trying to say regarding peeing out vitamin C, that somehow means it has no effect on outcome when it is in the brain if only for a few hours? Cortisol induced dendritic remodeling has a delayed fuse.

shugenja said:
3. Acute hyper-cortisol DOES NOT INDUCE PERSISTENT NEUROPLASTIC CHANGES (or much of an acute change), if it did, we would never recover from any situation that induces a fight or flight response including extreme exercise
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Ever heard of PTSD?

But that's beside the point. My theory about stress hormone related modulation of neuroplasticity being a possible cause of these various syndromes has specifically to do with cortisol modulating neuroplasticity in the context of the acute change in neurophysiology with the drug.

So cortisol mediated neuroplasticity while on a bad trip from a psychedelic or MDMA is going to have a different outcome than someone taking a glucocorticoid or exercising.

There could be three different populations. People who have biology that lends itself to having a bad trip, people who have biology that lends itself adverse neuroplastic adaptations, and people who have both. The people who have both are probably the people who are vulnerable to LTCs. You could have a bad trip and have temporary LTC like symptoms but not develop a more persistent LTC-like state because maybe you don't have genetics that predispose one to adverse neuroplastic adaptations during stress.
 
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OP, I hope you and your friends are ok. You sound a bit defensive to the above poster....perhaps from the stress? I have no answers but I wish you well. Take care.
 
Question on Vitamin C maybe a post in its own right!

Why is it recommended to take Vit C in pill / capsule form? Surely it's more readily available and broken down much more effectively if you just eat a few organic oranges before and after? I personal find Grapefruit is fantastic as a pre load, maybe it's placebo but I have noticed a difference next day based on similar setting, dose (from same batch tested) and activity.
 
^I think that grapefruit inhibits the production of the CYP3A4 enzyme that can affect the absorption of a lot of drugs (MDMA included).

That and eating a load of oranges etc can make you have a bit of a dodgy stomach due to the increased acidity - not really what you want.

(nice to see you posting again)
 
shugenja said:
[h=1]Ascorbic acid prevents 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA)-induced hydroxyl radical formation and the behavioral and neurochemical consequences of the depletion of brain 5-HT.[/h]
"The concomitant administration of ascorbic acid with the neurotoxic regimen of MDMA prevented the diminished neurochemical and behavioral responses to a subsequent injection of MDMA."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11170222

In other words it prevents tolerance and helps maintain the magic
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I know even Erowid ran with that interpretation, but I don't agree. Quick summery of the experiment:

Round 1: Give rats a neurotoxic dose. Their brains are damaged. Give them a second dose and they don't respond to it as strongly (presumably due to damage to the serotonin system.)

Round 2: Give more rats the same (normally neurotoxic) dose, plus a generous pre-load of vitamin C. Their brains do not appear to be damaged. Give them a second dose of MDMA and they respond the same way they did the first time.

The problem with this is that classic MDMA serotonergic toxicity involves axonal pruning (destroying the communication cables that the neurons use to reach out and talk to the rest of the brain.) However, at least the vast majority of cases of tolerance in humans appears to be due to neuroadaptive mechanisms (the brain gets startled by the huge flood of serotonin so it makes fewer serotonin receptors available in order to 'turn the volume' back down.

So, we have completely different mechanisms at work in these rats vs. human users. Vitamin C was able to preserve the sensitivity of the rats to MDMA because it prevented injuries to the serotonin neurons. But I haven't seen any reason to believe that vitamin C would prevent classical mechanisms of tolerance (changes in the population of receptors, transporters, etc) which seems to be how human users lose sensitivity to MDMA.

'Loss of magic', I suspect, is something else entirely. It may be as simple as an element of novelty to the experience. If you go to an amusement park and ride a huge rollercoaster repeatedly, the first time might be thrilling and terrifying, but after a while it becomes routine, even a bit boring. I would be surprised if there was a 'fix' for loss of magic, since I suspect it's just the brain saying to itself 'yah, we've been here and done this before, no reason to get excited, no reason to dump that extra dopamine and adrenaline to respond to the situation.'
 
Bearlove said:
^I think that grapefruit inhibits the production of the CYP3A4 enzyme that can affect the absorption of a lot of drugs (MDMA included).
Click to expand...

3A4 converts MDMA to MDA, which is slightly stronger than MDMA, so if anything, inhibiting it might make the experience very slightly weaker. CYP3A4 is primarily a liver enzyme, so it doesn't affect absorption of the drug so much as it affects how quickly the already absorbed drug is broken down.
 
TheDEA.org said:
The problem with this is that classic MDMA serotonergic toxicity involves axonal pruning (destroying the communication cables that the neurons use to reach out and talk to the rest of the brain.) However, at least the vast majority of cases of tolerance in humans appears to be due to neuroadaptive mechanisms (the brain gets startled by the huge flood of serotonin so it makes fewer serotonin receptors available in order to 'turn the volume' back down.

So, we have completely different mechanisms at work in these rats vs. human users. Vitamin C was able to preserve the sensitivity of the rats to MDMA because it prevented injuries to the serotonin neurons. But I haven't seen any reason to believe that vitamin C would prevent classical mechanisms of tolerance (changes in the population of receptors, transporters, etc) which seems to be how human users lose sensitivity to MDMA.

'Loss of magic', I suspect, is something else entirely. It may be as simple as an element of novelty to the experience. If you go to an amusement park and ride a huge rollercoaster repeatedly, the first time might be thrilling and terrifying, but after a while it becomes routine, even a bit boring. I would be surprised if there was a 'fix' for loss of magic, since I suspect it's just the brain saying to itself 'yah, we've been here and done this before, no reason to get excited, no reason to dump that extra dopamine and adrenaline to respond to the situation.'
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MDMA tolerance has been empirically proven to occur after 7 consecutive days of a 120-160 mg dose. Not even mydriasis on day 7. And then to reverse completely within another week. It is also non-cross tolerant with MDA, as a 120 mg dose of MDA on day 7 -- when complete tolerance to MDMA had been established -- caused expected subjective effects -- not ameliorated by tolerance to MDMA

I, and several others can conclusively state that multiple grams of ascorbate salts

a. prevent any type of 'hangover' even when taking larger doses
b. preserve response/prevent tolerance -- to the point of being able to consume 120-150 mg doses daily for a week WITHOUT LOSS OF EFFECT
c. reduce the time to baseline after consumption
d. prevent HPPD and also abolish existing HPPD


the effect is not limited to MDMA or MDXX substances

I and others have also experienced the following from megadoses of ascorbate salts ( 8 - 12 grams daily)

a. prevention/reversal of alcohol tolerance
b. prevention/reversal of opiate tolerance
c. amelioration or abolishment of opiate withdrawal symptoms
d. reversal of caffeine tolerance
e. reduction in benzodiazepine tolerance/amelioration of withdrawal


I posit as a theory that such massive doses of ascorbate induce a morphological resetting of multiple classes of receptors in the brain and body. Basically an adaptogenic effect -- receptors that are up-regulated are normalized, receptors that are down regulated are normalized.

Bacopa monnieri has a similar normalizing effect on GABA and Serotonin receptors
 
TheDEA.org said:
3A4 converts MDMA to MDA, which is slightly stronger than MDMA, so if anything, inhibiting it might make the experience very slightly weaker. CYP3A4 is primarily a liver enzyme, so it doesn't affect absorption of the drug so much as it affects how quickly the already absorbed drug is broken down.
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Not incorrect, but not accurate -- MDMA is converted to MDA by N-demethylation

The role of human hepatic cytochrome P450 isozymes in the metabolism of racemic 3,4-methylenedioxy-methamphetamine and its enantiomers.


The highest contribution for the N-demethylation as calculated from the enzyme kinetic data, were obtained for CYP2B6 (R,S-MDMA), CYP1A2 (R-MDMA), and CYP2B6 (S-MDMA)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18725511
 
Hey everyone great discussion here. To clarify a few things.

I apologize if my first response seemed hostile. I just wanted to clarify a few points as I actually didn't disagree with everyone's comments thus far.

I also wanted to clarify to a few people that my friends and I work at the univeristy, we are not students. We all are married with families and are probably classified as privileged (this was mention in a previous post quite a while back). I'm not saying this to be boastful, but to bring out the point that our lives do not contain many of the typical stressors of life.

That may contribute to our lack of feeling down since we have very little to be down about.

We are all still gym rats in our 30s who do not drink, blaze once in a while but only have this passtime for substance.

We all eat generally healthy.

Are there subtle changes? Yes, the day after we often feel tired, and there have been a few times where we feel somewhat strung out and just not 'ourselves' for a day or two. My point is that even with the amount and frequency of use, we feel back to pretty much normal within a few days.

Again, i recognize that we are all built different to some degree and our environment and regime play a role in our body response but i just have a difficult time grasping that there is such minimal effects.

Out wives havent noticed anything, one of us also runs a company with employees and is in business meetings with professionals all the time, 4 years later it's no different. I think it's great if this was a guarantee. Anyway all of this is just my two cents. I'd love for this to be the case, how great would the world be.... or at least my personal life ;)
 
Are there subtle changes? Yes, the day after we often feel tired, and there have been a few times where we feel somewhat strung out and just not 'ourselves' for a day or two. My point is that even with the amount and frequency of use, we feel back to pretty much normal within a few days.
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To be fair, this is not the same as "no effects" and it kind of depends on your definition of "subtle." For example, I'm a graduate student and my day-to-day mental health has a big effect on my work. For me, a few days of reduced motivation is actually a significant setback.

Out wives havent noticed anything, one of us also runs a company with employees and is in business meetings with professionals all the time, 4 years later it's no different. I think it's great if this was a guarantee. Anyway all of this is just my two cents. I'd love for this to be the case, how great would the world be.... or at least my personal life
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It would be great if this were a guarantee, but it is not. I'm glad you and your friends have had a good relationship with MDMA. Aside from using much more than is generally recommended, you seem to be doing it right. Unfortunately, the fact that this level of use has worked out for you just does not mean that it is safe for everyone. The effects of MDMA are complex, under-studied, and different from person to person.
 
Update for everyone.

I would say it's finally caught up with me. It's not as if all of a sudden life is horrific but it's showing up now in rather weird deceptive ways.

I've taken about a month off after years of going at it quite hard and while I'm able to manage I can say for sure that for others in different positions in life I could see how this could lead to some pretty significant challenges.

I tend to get rather negative thoughts in my mind that are not very pleasant. It's a feeling of "things aren't going to turn out well for me".

Logically, I am aware that life is very good for me but it still creeps in. Those random feelings of not having business ventures work out and I will somehow end up being homeless.

The fact that a close friend and business partner of many years doesn't care about me or doesn't like me anymore. It's as if I'm purposely looking for signs that life isn't going well. If we want to look for fault, we can find it even in the best of situations.


I would say that the danger of long term use is this inability to shake this devil on my shoulder that keeps telling me negative things. Thoughts become things and so it's a battle to keep my mind in a great space.

I am VERY lucky as I am in an incredible relationship and have a very high income from multiple businesses. I also have great friends, some of which are well aware of this experience.

Even with me being in this space it's a lot of work to stay positive. I'm generally a very positive person, have no prior mental issues or family history of such.

For those that may have a predisposition or any kind of mental issues I could see this driving people to suicide quite easily.

I also don't have the same worries as some may have with financial concerns and relationships both friendships and family/spouse.

With everything in my life being pretty awesome, it's manageable but again, I can see how this could absolutely crush someone and destroy their self image and thus essentially throw their life into the gutter.

It was a great journey and it took a lot of abuse over years and years but it did finally catch up. I'm going to document my recovery and see how that looks.

I've been out of the gym the last month heading back in a few days so we'll see how that shifts things since working out has generally served my mental space very well.

Not that I ever suggested to get on the M train but please be careful if you're going to take this stuff a lot. It does slowly warp your world and your mind to seek out and focus on anything that is or could potentially be altered in a negative way.

Keep you posted everyone! :)
 
Update:

Its about three months now since I've stopped and.....


I feel 100%. I'm in the gym 6 days a week and I'm taking some testosterone shots and getting great results. Mind is crystal clear. I just completed a full physical approaching age 40 and everything is rock solid.

Vision on is better than 20/20, hearing, bloodwork, heart, you name it.

I have had some heart scans done as well as I did have some concerns about some abnormal valve growth (something that can happen with long term amphetamine abuse) and everything checks out perfectly.

My recovery took 60-75 days-ish. Considering I easily took over two thousand pills (always pure and always 220mg per pill) my friends and doctors that are also my friends (one who is a neurologist) have this commentary 'unofficially'




MDMA does damage and the magnitude of that damage is virtually impossible to determine as a blanket statement.

Take aspirin or any over the counter drug. The reason these are "safe" is because their predictability is easier to quantify, or rather can be quantified within a range that we, as medical professionals, deem to be within a manageable range. While some people could die or have serious effects, the results and predictability fall within a range that is easy to determine and the width of users are easy to manage.

MDMA is, in plain English, difficult to manage in the same way. What is the previous family history of mental illness? What is the users current mental health? What other drugs are they using (since many MDMA users often will use other drugs)? What is the users diet? How often do they take part in physical activities? What are the doses taken? How frequently?

The big one is that previous mental illness may be present before it's apparent. Even those with no history of mental illness may have a pre-disposition to mental illness; it just won't show until its apparent.

One thing appears to be clear - the drug has a drastically wide effect on people making predictability to those that are frequent users highly difficult. Another challenge is the purity of the product and the precautions taken during the experience.



The doctor's comment to me specifically:

You clearly have no pre-disposition to mental illness. You clearly have a diet that promotes and/or minimizes neurological damage along with activities that promote motor-neuron function (in my case professional piano). Your behaviour is reckless and I strongly urge you discontinue use immediately. I would consider you to fall in a range that is less than 5% of the population and would not suggest your experience be the example for anyone looking to identify potential long term effects of such drug use.
 
How about you try taking a break for a year and see how you feel? Could you even do that at this point? Side effects can show up down the road you know, well after you stop using MDMA which, as I'm sure you know, your use is completely, entirely unsustainable. It sounds like you are completely out of control with the partying and have been for a long time. It is NOT normal to take that much Mdma, and no offence because I have made similar mistakes, but abusing that much shit is just retarded. Your serotonin system is likely shot dead, and I bet if you stopped for a year it would fuck you right the fuck up down the road, well after you quit.

I used it a lot, and I didn't notice shit until I stopped using it. I then noticed extreme anxiety and panic attacks among other health issues that took a long time to clear up. I take it once every 2 years now, and even that is too much for me, and a huge risk in my mind. I love the drug, but honestly what the fuck are you thinking? You thin you are invincible or special or some shit? That drug will FUCK your brain if you use it like that. In my opinion you haven't experienced long term effects because you haven't stopped using it yet.
 
I don't plan to take any for a minimum 6 months. It may be much longer although I can say there will be a time which I will take it again.

I've never rolled while partying so I don't have a trigger where I feel the need to have to take it.

Side effects can show up in many ways over many years so you are correct, there may be damage that scans and how I'm mentally/physically feeling won't indicate.



While there could be some long term effects, I'm somewhat surprised that after 90 days of not using I feel great. I did experience some minor symptoms as mentioned above.

While there is no rule that I cannot feel worse 3 months from now, the fact that I experienced a decline after abstaining and since have improved to what feels like normal seems encouraging.

I'm sorry to hear your experience of abuse led to some significant challenges. Was your journey after the fact linear or variable?

Did you feel great after discontinued use for 3-6 months and then progressed into a damaging space after?

It would be interesting to hear your journey since I've never expected to be the exception to any rule. In fact, my biggest worry through all this waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Maybe it still will however I would have assumed it would have shown up by now. If after a year I'm still okay when will the shoe drop? Will it?

This whole experience has been quite something.
 
I thought I?d update just in case this is of any value to those that have been avid users looking for someone?s journey with this substance.

I?ve been back on a weekly dose of 1-2 times per week at 200mg-300mg per time.

I can say that during the time I was off (a total of about 6 month) I was actually a more positive person once I had escaped the first few weeks of being somewhat more negative than usual.

Again, I have a very privileged life so my view on things may be much easier to digest than the average person. That said, I will admit there was a period of time where I definetly felt ?less? than regarding my personal self esteem etc.

This is typical in most humans since we generally experience a range of emotions.


Health is great, feel great, look great. Again. I?m not using anything else, I?m still avidly in the gym and my social circle and personal/business life are very fulfilling.

If these parts of my life were not as good, I can see the potential for things to spiral quite badly for some.
 
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