Very important questions before I take psychedelics

[MattMVS7]

I plan on taking a psychedelic, but I have a very important question before I do so. Sometimes, there are bad trips. However, I am fine with having a bad trip as long as they are not like the types of experiences that I have had in my depressive nightmares. I have struggled with depression in my life and that has caused these nightmares where I have experienced radically altered mental states. They are experiences that are far beyond horrible and they are nothing normal.

There is no way to describe these experiences since they are entirely new experiences. They are not experiences like smell, taste, touch, seeing things, hearing things, or feelings. They are radical alterations of the entire mental state itself. I can only describe them as experiences that are far beyond horrible. There is no way to further explain them since they are experiences that are entirely new.

I heard that the types of experiences psychedelics offer are different than those types of experiences in dreams and nightmares, but there can be elements of dreams and nightmares in a psychedelic trip since some of the neurological processes that are involved in dreams and nightmares can also be involved in the trip. That makes me worry if those types of altered mental states I've mentioned above can be one of these elements experienced during a trip or if this is an element only exclusive to those nightmares I've had.

In other words, as long as I cannot experience those horrible altered mental states I've had in my nightmares during a trip, then I will be fine. But if it is possible to experience them during a trip or mental states that are similar, then I will not take a psychedelic. When I say mental states that are similar, I don't mean a mental state that one would experience in his/her normal waking life that bears a little bit of resemblance. I mean mental states that are actually similar to those I've experienced in those horrible depressive nightmares I've had.

I will also apply this question to hellish near death experiences or near death experiences that have horrible features. Can those altered mental states I've mentioned above also be experienced during such ndes, or not? I worry that if I ever have such a near death experience (nde) myself someday, that it is possible for me to experience those altered mental states. It would be far worse if ndes are fully conscious states and if I were to experience those types of altered mental states I did in my nightmares fully aware and fully conscious of them.

So this is my 1st important question. I have further important questions that I will add in our discussion here. I will not add them here in this post since that will make this post too long for anyone to be interested in even reading.

 

[mr peabody]

Thank you for reaching out, and it's wonderful that you've taken time to describe yourself and your concerns. It's the perfect starting point for what I hope will be a life-long appreciation for these miraculous substances. Here are few guidelines you should follow in order to ensure your safety.

You are right to be concerned about the possibility of having a bad trip, and you can easily prevent that. Bad trip always equals too much substance for the situation. Some people have a MUCH lower tolerance to psychedelics than others. By much lower I mean the people you're with are taking 2-3 tabs (or grams of mushrooms) and having a great time and you can only safely handle 1/4 of that. This is PERFECTLY NORMAL. If you want to avoid fearful psychedelic experiences entirely, here's how.

Never listen to ANYONE concerning dose. Only you can establish your own tolerance. You do this by trial and error. Start with 1/4 tab, and if that goes well, next time try 1/2. You need to follow this procedure with every single batch of every single new substance. 1/2 tab of one substance can be MUCH stronger than 1/2 of another, so even if you did well with 1/2 of one, you can easily find yourself in over your head if you take 1/2 of something else. Always approach your tolerance gradually, by testing every new batch/substance yourself, first. I advise you to steer clear of magic mushrooms until you are more experienced as they are high anxiety for a lot of people.

People will disagree with me, and I'm fine with that, but never smoke pot when your tripping. That can easily cause a bad trip, and it's happened to me repeatedly. I further advise you not to trip in public. Finally, mixing substances is not for me and that's worked pretty well, so let's ensure you can ride the horse before trying any fancy tricks.

For you, my friend, it's all dose. If you start off in a VERY small way, and observe the simple guidelines above, you'll be fine. As a final rule of thumb, never start off with more than 1/4 dose of anything. You need to learn to crawl before you can walk, and that'll take time. This is a marathon, not a sprint. Just take it slow, and advance with extreme care.

Seen this? : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTehpkc1PNY

 

[pupnik]

I could not recommend any specific approach to you without knowing a lot more about your age, station in life, etc.
however I can say that psychedelic experiences are not predefined, and it is impossible to guarantee that an experience will go or not go in any direction.

you could relive your nightmares or discover new ones.

whether you trip with psychedelics or just find yourself tripping some day for no known reason (i.e. anomalous health or mental conditions can make people have psychedelic experiences) you need to have some practice in relaxation techniques.

learning to breathe and let experiences pass through you is extremely important.
beginning to relax and beginning again to relax -letting go - has to become second nature.

Often people using psychedelics go through very difficult indescribable experiences yet recount them as marvelous,
why is that?
when everything is taken away and you are stripped to less than nothing and then come back I guess it is marvelous.

but not everyone comes back, not everyone can be stripped of everything, so they hang onto the shredded remains of pain and torture.

My intuition is that you might be a candidate for LSD or Psilocybin therapy, but you should not go alone into an experimental self guided program of discovery because of the little bit of history you have shared.

 

[MattMVS7]

Sorry to hear about your bad experience. Bad trip always equals too much substance for the situation. If you're out and about you need to be more cautious. Of key importance is that some people have a MUCH lower tolerance to psychedelics than others. By much lower I mean people you're with are taking 2-3 tabs (or grams of mushrooms) and having a great time, and you can only safely handle 1/4 of that. This is PERFECTLY NORMAL. So no, there's nothing wrong with you. And you can avoid ever having another bad trip. Here's how.

Never listen to ANYONE concerning dose. Only you can establish your own tolerance. You do this by trial and error. Start with 1/4 tab, and if that goes well, next time try 1/2. You need to follow this procedure with every single batch of every single new substance. 1/2 tab of one substance can be MUCH stronger than 1/2 of another, so even if you did well with 1/2 of one, you can easily find yourself in over your head if you take 1/2 of something else. Always approach your tolerance gradually, by testing every new batch/substance yourself, first.

The disillusionment that follows a bad trip can take years to get past, but it can be done. I suggest getting back on the horse, in a small way. But steer clear of mushrooms (people who know will tell you that mushrooms are high anxiety for a lot of people). Look into ALD-52 which is readily available online. (30 mics would be a good starting point.)

People will disagree with me, and I'm fine with that, but never smoke pot when your tripping. That can easily cause a bad trip, and it's happened to me repeatedly. Smoking pot is sort of a "wolf in sheep's clothing" - one has the impression it's calming and a refuge of sorts, but it can wreck your life, and worse. Being stoned is like being in a box, a state of suspended animation - no one can reach in to your space, and you can't reach out. Relationships suffer terribly. It's impossible to move on, so one just stays in the same place indefinitely. Many people I used to know are still lost after all these years and they don't even know it. If you want a happy life, I suggest you walk away from smoking pot and never look back.

Seen this? : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTehpkc1PNY

Alright, but I still need those questions answered anyway since it is very important for me to know the answers to them.

 

[MattMVS7]

I could not recommend any specific approach to you without knowing a lot more about your age, station in life, etc.
however I can say that psychedelic experiences are not predefined, and it is impossible to guarantee that an experience will go or not go in any direction.

you could relive your nightmares or discover new ones.

whether you trip with psychedelics or just find yourself tripping some day for no known reason (i.e. anomalous health or mental conditions can make people have psychedelic experiences) you need to have some practice in relaxation techniques.

learning to breathe and let experiences pass through you is extremely important.
beginning to relax and beginning again to relax -letting go - has to become second nature.

Often people using psychedelics go through very difficult indescribable experiences yet recount them as marvelous,
why is that?
when everything is taken away and you are stripped to less than nothing and then come back I guess it is marvelous.

but not everyone comes back, not everyone can be stripped of everything, so they hang onto the shredded remains of pain and torture.

My intuition is that you might be a candidate for LSD or Psilocybin therapy, but you should not go alone into an experimental self guided program of discovery because of the little bit of history you have shared.

So you are saying there is no way to tell me for sure whether I will experience those types of horrible indescribable mental states I've experienced in my depressive nightmares during a trip? Or mental states that are similar to those in my depressive nightmares? I bet someone who knows about the brain can give me the answer to this though. This question I have also applies to hellish near death experiences and ndes that have horrible features.

 

[Clocktower]

In other words, as long as I cannot experience those horrible altered mental states I've had in my nightmares during a trip, then I will be fine. But if it is possible to experience them during a trip or mental states that are similar, then I will not take a psychedelic. When I say mental states that are similar, I don't mean a mental state that one would experience in his/her normal waking life that bears a little bit of resemblance. I mean mental states that are actually similar to those I've experienced in those horrible depressive nightmares I've had.

There are no guarantees about what mental state you will experience during a trip, and there are barely any limits on what is possible. I'm sorry if this disappoints you, but it sounds like you should not take psychedelics.

So you are saying there is no way to tell me for sure whether I will experience those types of horrible indescribable mental states I've experienced in my depressive nightmares during a trip? Or mental states that are similar to those in my depressive nightmares? I bet someone who knows about the brain can give me the answer to this though. This question I have also applies to hellish near death experiences and ndes that have horrible features.

Nobody can give you the answer to this, there really is no way to tell you for sure.

 

[MattMVS7]

Nobody can give you the answer to this, there really is no way to know for sure.

If a neuroscientist were to tell me that, then I would agree. But since you are not one, then I am not sure.

 

[MattMVS7]

There are no guarantees about what mental state you will experience during a trip, and there are barely any limits on what is possible. I'm sorry if this disappoints you, but it sounds like you should not take psychedelics.

Actually, let me approach this question differently. I am not asking whether or not I will experience those horrible altered mental states from my depressive nightmares during a trip or mental states that are similar, I am asking if it is possible to experience them. So I will ask those who have taken psychedelic drugs. Have any of you experienced those types of radically altered mental states that you experience in your dreams and nightmares during a trip or mental states that were similar? Or was the trip a completely different experience entirely and that the altered mental states experienced during a trip were nothing at all like those in dreams and nightmares?

 

[Clocktower]

Fair enough, I'm not a neuroscientist. For what it's worth though, I'm a graduate student with seven years' experience using psychedelic drugs and five years spent doing biological research. I know enough to tell you what any self-respecting neuroscientist or drug user will say.

I've never myself witnessed anyone having a trip as bad as what you describe, but I'm certain that it's possible because I've seen firsthand how some people can take a very moderate dose of LSD, completely forget where they are and who they are, and go through a passionately emotional experience in some strange alternate dimension.

Does everyone react this way? No. Can you avoid it by being careful? Probably. Can you guarantee that it will never happen? No.

So I will ask those who have taken psychedelic drugs. Have any of you experienced those types of radically altered mental states that you experience in your dreams and nightmares during a trip or mental states that were similar?

No nightmares for me, but dream-like states? Yes.

 

[MattMVS7]

Fair enough, I'm not a neuroscientist. For what it's worth though, I'm a graduate student with seven years' experience using LSD and five years spent doing biological research. I know enough to tell you what any self-respecting neuroscientist or LSD user will say.

I've never myself witnessed anyone having a trip as bad as what you describe, but I'm certain that it's possible because I've seen firsthand how some people can take a very moderate dose of LSD, completely forget where they are and who they are, and go through a passionately emotional experience in some strange alternate dimension.

Does everyone react this way? No. Can you avoid it by being careful? Probably. Can you guarantee that it will never happen? No.

As I said before, I will go ahead and ask those here who have taken psychedelics who have had bad trips. My previous post asks these questions and I will wait for people to answer.

 

[MattMVS7]

No nightmares for me, but dream-like states? Yes.

I have heard that hallucinations are different experiences than dreams from neuroscientists. So I am wondering if what you experienced was not a radically altered mental state that one would experience in his/her dreams, but rather, an altered mental state specific only to a psychedelic trip which would be its own unique experience entirely that you are falsely attributing as a dream experience.

 

[Clocktower]

So I am wondering if what you experienced was not a radically altered mental state that one would experience in his/her dreams, but rather, an altered mental state specific only to a psychedelic trip which would be its own unique experience entirely that you are falsely attributing as a dream experience.

I posit that there is no way for me or you or anyone else to be certain of the difference.

 

[MattMVS7]

I posit that there is no way for me or you or anyone else to be certain of the difference.

I think neuroscience would be able to tell us as to whether those radical altered mental states that we experience in our dreams and nightmares or mental states that are similar would be an element experienced during a trip or an nde. So maybe my questions are perhaps best suited for a neuroscientist to answer.

 

[Clocktower]

I think neuroscience would be able to tell us as to whether those radical altered mental states that we experience in our dreams and nightmares or mental states that are similar would be an element experienced during a trip or an nde.

Someday, yes, but that research has not been done yet. Or maybe it's just getting started.

 

[MattMVS7]

Someday, yes, but that research has not been done yet. Or maybe it's just getting started.

I have another very important question. In my depressive nightmares, I have no power whatsoever against any horrible altered mental state or feeling. They are the absolute worst experiences in my nightmares. I had a depressive nightmare one time and I experienced a horrible indescribable depressive feeling in that nightmare. It was the worst experience. But when that horrible feeling lingered on into my waking life, for whatever reason, it wasn't as bad of an experience as my nightmare.

Even if you went and somehow amplified that feeling to be even more intense than my nightmare, I still think it wouldn't be as bad as an experience as my nightmare. It would be a very horrible experience, but still not as bad as how I've experienced that feeling in my nightmare. In my waking state, I am in a normal wakeful state of reality. Therefore, any horrible experience also becomes normal.

But in my nightmares, I lose that normal wakeful sense of reality. So maybe this is the reason why experiences in my nightmares are far worse. So my question is this. If I ever have a hellish nde or if I were to have a bad trip, then would I have that power against any horrible altered mental state or feeling since I would be in a wakeful state? Would such horrible experiences no matter how horrible and intense they are, would they be reduced to normal horrible experiences in my wakeful state?

Or would they be just as bad or even worse of an experience than what I experience in my nightmares? I would assume that since any horrible experience becomes a normal horrible experience in my normal wakeful state, that any horrendous experience during a bad trip or an nde would also be reduced to a normal horrible experience. But I can't be too sure on this which is why I ask.

 

[xammy]

NDE might have been the most profound experience in my life, more than psychedelics ever gave me. I think.

Wonder how the "real" NDE is compared to dissociatives.

 

[psy997]

You're asking questions no one can answer but yourself. You're chasing your tail in circles.

 

[tokezu]

^This. I don't think anybody can give you the kind of guarantee, you seem to be looking for.

In my depressive nightmares, I have no power whatsoever against any horrible altered mental state or feeling. They are the absolute worst experiences in my nightmares.

Well it's very hard to imagine what exact feelings you might have in a nightmare, even if you wrote pages and pages I could never be sure if I really got the correct picture. But what you seem to be describing here is the loss of the capability to somehow step back from your own feelings and tell yourself "Hey, I only feel like this because X and that means I won't feel like this forever.", yes? That can definitely happen on psychedelics, it can be very unpleasant but at the same time it can also give you the opportunity to face important personal issues that you can keep yourself from facing when awake and sober. But as I said, there are no guarantess.

Bad trip always equals too much substance for the situation.

Lot's of good advice in that post, but with this part I have to disagree. How much you take is an important question, but set and setting are equally important. Set is referring to your mindset, so all of that "in your head" that you bring to this experience, your mental state, moods, expectations etc. Did you plan to take a psychedelic, but in the moment before taking it start to feel really fearful? Not "nervous", everybody would feel nervous, but if you feel actual fear then you are probably not in a good mindset to take a psychedelics. Setting is referring to your environment, are you outside in nature or at home, are you alone or with trusted friends? The environment you are in can have a tremendous effect, sometimes you just dim the lights or change the music and discover that was all that was needed to turn the trip around in a more positive direction.

Finally what is a bad trip? I don't really use that word, not that I would argue that there are no "bad trips". I certainly had some difficult experiences, and I have read trip reports where "difficult" doesn't even begin to describe it, but often people look back at these as an incredibly important learning experience, that they really needed in some way. There sure are reports of hellish trips where the person feels like they have gained absolutely nothing from it, I guess you could call that a bad trip, but if your mindful of dose, set and setting these are not very likely to happen IMO.

But to reiterate a final time, there are no guarantees. I think it would definitely be in the realm of possibility that you could enter the same mindstate you experienced in your nightmares. And if that is a risk that you are under no circumstances willing to take, I guess then psychedelics are out of the question.

 

[pupnik]

Matt, from your replies I have now learned that you are actually obsessed with an affliction in your mind and when that affliction is triggered you are powerless.
Unless you have a psychedelic therapist, I would not advise you take even the smallest dose of any psychoactive substances.

obsession is your salient mindset - this is not a criticism, it is your warning to us here, you are repeating your cry for help which must be a neuroscientist promising that you can eat psychedelic drugs - not going to happen.

Mind set and setting govern the content of your trip. Dose governs the intensity of resonance or psychedelic extension of that content.

If you find a psychedelic therapist (there are a few) you can follow that direction.

 

[psy997]

Great post ^